It looks like electric vehicles are going to be shoved down our throats

[OVERKILL]

That explains that, Canada (as far as I’m aware) doesn’t charge anyone gas or electric road tax,

I really rather have that system since it doesn’t top load this issue and makes the government responsible for the overall tax rates and budget instead of small closets fighting to use up their annual budget before it’s taken away.

Our gas prices contain a significant component that is tax actually, lol. This is supposedly used for road maintenance and repair. They are taxed at two levels, both provincial:
https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/gt/

And Federal:
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural...l-prices/fuel-consumption-levies-canada/18885

Carbon tax:
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-ag...s/publications/fcrates/fuel-charge-rates.html

 

[Wolf359]

That explains that, Canada (as far as I’m aware) doesn’t charge anyone gas or electric road tax,

I really rather have that system since it doesn’t top load this issue and makes the government responsible for the overall tax rates and budget instead of small closets fighting to use up their annual budget before it’s taken away.

You say that but you should ask how much he pays for a gallon of gas.

 

[Wolf359]

Let's look at some facts.

First, Europe and China are pretty much going all in on EV leaving only North America as an outlier. Those are two very big car markets and when that big one can call the shots. That leaves GM and Ford out in the cold as Chrysler is European owned anyway. So if GM and Ford want to stay relevant they will need to get on the bandwagon or be left behind when it comes to EV technology.

Not sure what you're saying, US car/truck sales were about 17 million. Europe is around 12 million and China 4 million. The US has always been the largest car market.

 

[tbm3fan]

Not sure what you're saying, US car/truck sales were about 17 million. Europe is around 12 million and China 4 million. The US has always been the largest car market.

Tell me how many are GM and Ford leaving out foreign manufacturers. I believe it is 5.3 million in 2019. Obviously 2020 is a bad year to judge being down 15%.

Meanwhile Chinese car sales are expected to hit 25.3 million in 2021 and that is what I am saying.

From Reuters:
CAAM also expects Chinese sales to hit 30 million vehicles in 2025.

In May, after months of lockdown policies, CAAM predicted China’s auto sales would fall 15% to 25% this year due to the impact of the virus, it later tweaked the forecasts as sales rebounded.

Auto sales in China rose 12.6% in November from the same month a year earlier to 2.77 million vehicles, the eighth straight monthly rise, CAAM data showed.

Sales of new energy vehicles (NEVs) surged 105% to 200,000, their fifth consecutive month of gains. NEVs include battery-powered electric, plug-in petrol-electric hybrids and hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.

NEV makers such as homegrown Nio Inc and Xpeng Inc as well as foreign groups, such as Tesla Inc, are expanding manufacturing capacity in China where the government has promoted greener vehicles to reduce air pollution.

As the global auto industry is hit hard by the COVID-19 pandemic, China has become a ray of hope for automakers, including Volkswagen AG and General Motors Co. Global automakers including Toyota Motor Corp and Honda Motor Co Ltd have forecast higher profit on surging China sales.

 

[dlundblad]

Let's look at some facts.

First, Europe and China are pretty much going all in on EV leaving only North America as an outlier. Those are two very big car markets and when that big one can call the shots. That leaves GM and Ford out in the cold as Chrysler is European owned anyway. So if GM and Ford want to stay relevant they will need to get on the bandwagon or be left behind when it comes to EV technology.

Second, is technology that I just mentioned. He who has it is the winner and he who doesn't is the loser who will have to pay for it. I can guarantee that China intends to dominate this field above all others. China has already stated their 2025 plan to dominate bio-tech whereby you will be beholden to China for your health care. My background, in college forty years ago, was biology. Specifically genetics and virus. Today I am a doctor and believe me I know the value of DNA. There is a Chinese company siphoning up all the DNA samples they can get in the world and that includes here in the U.S. DNA technology will provide the building blocks for new specific medicines when combined with AI to work them out. They will be geared to whatever condition you are suffering from. The big bucks will then flow to China. So if you signed onto Ancestry. com and gave your saliva I can give you a guess where else that DNA will end up and you paid them. My DNA is way more valuable than that and way up in six figures at a minimum.

In my opinion bio-tech and EV technology should be on the same level as the Manhattan Project as our economy may well depend on it 20 years from now.

You have too much faith in what China says.

 

[4WD]

You have too much faith in what China says.

Wut ? You don’t think China wants coal powered EV’s

 

[blingo]

It ain't that bad. https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2182487-chinas-2020-renewable-energy-output-rises

 

[SeaJay]

Ultimately the market will take over and make this choice for society. The gov't can push with regulations, and it does have a sizeable impact, but ultimately the market will determine what we drive when all is settled. So sit back, and enjoy the show.

 

[4WD]

It ain't that bad. https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2182487-chinas-2020-renewable-energy-output-rises

When I had a connection in China … as the plane was dropping altitude I watched mile after mile of what looked like brown & white (or less brown) pictures from my grandmother‘s cedar chest. Surreal images …
Having been in many countries around the globe … nothing comes close and I wonder just how accurate ant reporting from there really is …
They do need some EV’s … or something …

 

[Aichiguy]

I'm all for the transition to electric vehicles if it happens organically. if there's coercion through gas price manipulation or subsidies then it's just redistribution of wealth. In the near term electric cars will be punitive to the lower middle class.

 

[PimTac]

Ultimately the market will take over and make this choice for society. The gov't can push with regulations, and it does have a sizeable impact, but ultimately the market will determine what we drive when all is settled. So sit back, and enjoy the show.

I thought society was the market? The general public decides what they want. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a EV or a crossover.

Not yet anyway.

 

[dlundblad]

Wut ? You don’t think China wants coal powered EV’s

That’s essentially what they have now if they are indeed getting into EV’s. They’re building coal power plants left and right.

 

[E365]

Gasoline cars are not as inefficient as you claim.

Power plants are relatively efficient, but not quite as much as you imply.

EVs are not as efficient as you claim.

Line losses in the transmission of electric power further changes the equation so that a new Accord, for example, puts out lower greenhouse gasses per mile traveled than an EV that was charged up using a coal plant.

You do not come out ahead on energy usage, or on greenhouse gas emissions, with an EV unless it was charged with hydro, solar, or nuke.

“EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”

It’s why a Tesla Model Y has a 125 MPGe efficiency rating in the combined cycle and the Chevrolet Equinox is only 27 MPG

Sources: US EPA, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Argonne National Laboratory, SAE, MIT, University of Michigan

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

They list their sources at the bottom of each article

http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-2562/

http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-0398/

http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/otr2035/

http://papers.sae.org/2016-01-0901/

http://papers.sae.org/2017-01-1155/

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2013-01-1462

 

[blingo]

https://chinadialogue.net/en/climate/chinas-national-carbon-market-is-about-to-launch/

Decisions and developments behind their current 30% renewables. They doubled wind in 2020 and don't even seem to fear Nezzy²...

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

That explains that, Canada (as far as I’m aware) doesn’t charge anyone gas or electric road tax,

Wut

 

[PimTac]

That’s essentially what they have now if they are indeed getting into EV’s. They’re building coal power plants left and right.

They are also building nuclear plants too. They are increasing power generation capacity in a big way.

 

[4WD]

https://chinadialogue.net/en/climate/chinas-national-carbon-market-is-about-to-launch/

Decisions and developments behind their current 30% renewables. They doubled wind in 2020 and don't even seem to fear Nezzy²...

They also don’t have the hydrocarbons they need … and do infrastructure for oil deals that result in empty buildings with no cash in that economy …

 

[4WD]

“EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”

It’s why a Tesla Model Y has a 125 MPGe efficiency rating in the combined cycle and the Chevrolet Equinox is only 27 MPG

Sources: US EPA, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Argonne National Laboratory, SAE, MIT, University of Michigan

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

They list their sources at the bottom of each article

http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-2562/

http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-0398/

http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/otr2035/

http://papers.sae.org/2016-01-0901/

http://papers.sae.org/2017-01-1155/

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2013-01-1462

Many things are best electric … why we have diesel electric trains so what is next for them … 2nd cheapest means to move cargo …
Here is a small idea … but many will come

 

[supton]

“EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”

It’s why a Tesla Model Y has a 125 MPGe efficiency rating in the combined cycle and the Chevrolet Equinox is only 27 MPG

Except an electrical power plant might only be 50% efficiency on energy conversion of the energy going in (natural gas, coal) into electrical energy. The 77% efficiency of grid-to-wheels is thus multiplied by the 50% energy conversion to get 39% overall. Which still sounds good but then leaves us with a boxing match between hybrids that can get into the 40's for mpg and EV's when they are coal or natural gas powered.

Wheel to wheels, or CO2 per mile, pick your concern, that's where it's at. It's great to optimize one facet but in the end it's the total product that matters.

I've not wrapped my head around the MPGe concept. It appears to try to get back to energy consumption, relative to a gallon of gasoline; but it appears to ignore systematic losses. Nice concept, but energy conversion losses are not negligible at this time.

 

[BLND1]

Many things are best electric … why we have diesel electric trains so what is next for them … 2nd cheapest means to move cargo …
Here is a small idea … but many will comeView attachment 43984

Concentrated Wind, hydro, and solar facilities decimate fragile habitats and critical migratory corridors. It’s 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

We could have been pursuing new nuclear tech but instead will establish arbitrary deadlines that will overburden ancient infrastructure and then invest in energy sources that require huge land capital with horrific in-situ environmental impacts.