It looks like electric vehicles are going to be shoved down our throats

[ripcord]

Massive solar farms are not the answer... at least not until we have the capacity to park them in an ultra high orbit and transmit the power back to earth via microwaves or lasers or such.

 

[Wolf359]

It's a complete pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

Want to do it the easy way? Even with Vogtle being a complete gong show and costing $25 billion, that 2.4GW of capacity will produce ~20TWh/year, so, you'd need 210 2-unit AP1000 plants to match the entire US's energy consumption, which is $5.2 trillion, so it's even cheaper, and these have an 80-100 year lifespan.

Speaking of pie in the sky, name me one nuclear power project in the US that came in on budget and on time. Gas plants get built on time and on budget all the time.

 

[PimTac]

Massive solar farms are not the answer... at least not until we have the capacity to park them in an ultra high orbit and transmit the power back to earth via microwaves or lasers or such.

And I believe we will have come up with something better before all that happens.

 

[OVERKILL]

Speaking of pie in the sky, name me one nuclear power project in the US that came in on budget and on time. Gas plants get built on time and on budget all the time.

I specifically mentioned Vogtle because it is currently under construction and the $25 billion figure IS the over-budget figure, I was literally doing the opposite of what you've just accused me of by citing a particularly expensive example so as not to present unrealistic numbers.

We built TWO CANDU C6's in China for $4 billion in under 4 years (Qinshan) less than 20 years ago. Large infrastructure projects in the west are always plagued with cost overruns and massive delays and this doesn't just apply to nuke plants.

 

[Wolf359]

I specifically mentioned Vogtle, because it is currently under construction and the $25 billion figure IS the over-budget figure.

We built TWO CANDU C6's in China for $4 billion in under 4 years (Qinshan) less than 20 years ago. Large infrastructure projects in the west are always plagued with cost overruns and massive delays.

Yes, that was my point, nothing in the US for nuclear power gets built on time and on budget. Vogtle was originally supposed to be $14 billion before it went up to $25 billion. Their first two units went from $660 million to $8.87 billion.

So if you're planning on building a few more, that becomes a factor. Solar and wind might have a few of the same issues but maybe resistance is starting to fade on some projects so over runs and completing them on time might not be as big of an issue as before.

 

[4WD]

Where are you going to get the power for the rest of the day? PV works reasonably well, with some storage, to depress daytime peaking. Trying to use it as a primary energy source is a fool's errand of epic proportions. At best, you couple PV with some already ultra-low emissions tech like nuclear and/or hydro and then let it displace gas peaking.

This is a roof and a roof with solar panels: any questions?
It even blocks rays and provides an airgap on space doing nothing … cooler attics.

As I stated … wind turbines can exist just like oil & gas … on the same land as cattle and corn and the land owner makes extra money. Large scale solar eats up acreage and it’s off limits …

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, that was my point, nothing in the US for nuclear power gets built on time and on budget. Vogtle was originally supposed to be $14 billion before it went up to $25 billion. Their first two units went from $660 million to $8.87 billion.

So if you're planning on building a few more, that becomes a factor. Solar and wind might have a few of the same issues but maybe resistance is starting to fade on some projects so over runs and completing them on time might not be as big of an issue as before.

Yes, but I'd argue building 210 nuke plants is a far easier prospect, even with delays and using Vogtle as a pricing model, than building 32,000 square miles of solar panels and storage, which you'd never complete before you started having to replace both of them. A nuke plant has an extremely small footprint and an extremely long lifespan even with the fact that they seem to take forever to build this side of the pond.

 

[4WD]

Massive solar farms are not the answer... at least not until we have the capacity to park them in an ultra high orbit and transmit the power back to earth via microwaves or lasers or such.

Some rich guy an hour north of me spent a ton of money getting off the grid with a pasture full of panels. A twister mistook that spread for a trailer house and went right for it. That and his neighbors steel building were the only hits

 

[OVERKILL]

This is a roof and a roof with solar panels: any questions?
It even blocks rays and provides an airgap on space doing nothing … cooler attics.View attachment 44072
As I stated … wind turbines can exist just like oil & gas … on the same land as cattle and corn and the land owner makes extra money. Large scale solar eats up acreage and it’s off limits …
View attachment 44071

As I said in the post you replied to, moderate amounts of PV (so, rooftop) with some storage could work to depress daytime peaking requirements at limited penetrations as long as you aren't cutting into ULE baseload generation. If you don't buffer it with storage the duck curve gets insane and then you have crazy amounts of very expensive fast-ramp gas capacity that needs to be at the ready.

So, nukes + hydro + rooftop PV + storage could be a workable ULE grid framework and doesn't have to perform the gymnastics necessary to accommodate wind.

 

[4WD]

Yes, but I'd argue building 210 nuke plants is a far easier prospect, even with delays and using Vogtle as a pricing model, than building 32,000 square miles of solar panels and storage, which you'd never complete before you started having to replace both of them. A nuke plant has an extremely small footprint and an extremely long lifespan even with the fact that they seem to take forever to build this side of the pond.

Wow ! Rare minerals be d——

 

[OVERKILL]

Wow ! Rare minerals be d——

Uranium isn't rare if that's what you are implying. The ocean is full of it, Australia and Canada have obscene amounts of it.

 

[4WD]

Uranium isn't rare if that's what you are implying. The ocean is full of it, Australia and Canada have obscene amounts of it.

I mean solar and the batteries/electronics associated

 

[ripcord]

Wow ! Rare minerals be d——

Like Overkill mentioned, uranium is not rare at all... and we're not just limited to uranium. Thorium is also an option for nuclear power production and it's several times more abundant than uranium.

Edit: Oops. I thought you meant the same thing 4WD.

 

[OVERKILL]

I mean solar and the batteries/electronics associated

For sure!

 

[4WD]

Like Overkill mentioned, uranium is not rare at all... and we're not just limited to uranium. Thorium is also an option for nuclear power production and it's several times more abundant than uranium.

Not about nuke … I’m pro nuke and even wind, and proper use of solar … and GTG’s can be made even cleaner

 

[OVERKILL]

Like Overkill mentioned, uranium is not rare at all... and we're not just limited to uranium. Thorium is also an option for nuclear power production and it's several times more abundant than uranium.

Edit: Oops. I thought you meant the same thing 4WD.

Yup, and while there are a lot of SMR designs that can use Thorium, the old CANDU can run a Thorium fuel cycle already, so there is definitely some flexibility there. However, he's clarified his statement and was referring to the rare earth elements for solar and batteries, which makes sense.

 

[ripcord]

Yeah, sorry, 4WD, I thought you were saying something else.

 

[ripcord]

The throat cramming has begun...

https://thefederalist.com/2021/02/0...n-ten-years-other-blue-states-following-suit/

 

[supton]

I recall California had some lofty goals 20 or 30 years ago, with a goal for zero emissions? or much lower ones. Did they have to walk that one back when technology was unable to deliver?

 

[JeffKeryk]

I recall California had some lofty goals 20 or 30 years ago, with a goal for zero emissions? or much lower ones. Did they have to walk that one back when technology was unable to deliver?

We are pretty strict. I told Newsome to put solar panels on every roof, a storage battery and 2 Teslas per person.