Agreed. I defy somone to show me a dino 5W-30 that did not shear to a 20 wt in ~5000 miles.
[ July 09, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: novadude ]
Is there any solid scientific evidence that Mobil 1 is good for extended drains?
- Thread starter TooManyWheels
- Start date
- Status
[ July 09, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: novadude ]
I dont see how, when I said numerous times to use any oil and go the longer drain cycle in the owners manual. Why are you guys so stuck on 3k?
Shucks, I was hoping someone would attempt my litle math assignment while I was gone.
I asked to find out how much oil it would take to detect a motor developing a cylider taper of .009" (which is considered REAL good) 4 inch motor, 3.5 inch stroke (351 ford if anyone cares)
The volume of the orginal cylinder was 43.98ci. the Volume of the new transcribed cylinder is 44.18. diff of .2ci. divided by 2 since it is after all a taper - .1ci divided by 2 again since it does not taper appreciably on the sides - .05ci times 8 cyl = .4ci of iron removed. If every UOA was representative of actual wear and only showed 1ppm, it would take .4 * 1000000 /231 to get gallons of oil (231 inches per gallon) then times 4 (quarts per gallon) and div 5 (quarts per oil change) to get oil changes.
Suffice to say, to develope a rather small cylinder taper over the first life of the motor, it will take 1385 oil changes. If we find this taper in a spectacular 200K miles (which I think syn oil is capable of providing) each oil change would have to occur 144 miles apart. Kinda unrealistic no?
Lets say that 50ppm is found in each UOA then that is 28 oil changes or 7150 miles apart - more realistic
at any rate, the z28 mentioned before *will* have this taper (or greater) by 200K (or else it will be in record books, on NBC nightly news, and elected president.) The UOAs posted thus far therefore are not indicative of the actual wear encountered. (and of course we have not discussed whether timing chains and gears wear or not, whether camshafts and lifters wear or not, lifter bores, valves and seats, guides, rod side clearances, wrist pins, rings etc etc)
What have I painstakingly tried to show? a UOA might give a good indication of a fuel pump leak or a coolant leak, and might give reference to how well the additives are holding up - but thats it. there is little if any inferrable correlation between the wear materials in a UOA and the actual wear encountered. (not to mention, these pieces of iron will pass thru the tightest filter made like it was a super highway and they were on a moped)
**note - the calculations I gave showed a ppm count using straight particle count, which of course is near impossible to do. actualy its a w/vol count (mass) in which case since a molecule of iron is denser than one of oil (last time I checked, iron sinks in liquid) that actual volume of oil is much much greater, but I wanted to show in simple calculations how much UOAs are NOT showing you.
Have I done a satisfactory job? Are you pleased with the results?
I asked to find out how much oil it would take to detect a motor developing a cylider taper of .009" (which is considered REAL good) 4 inch motor, 3.5 inch stroke (351 ford if anyone cares)
The volume of the orginal cylinder was 43.98ci. the Volume of the new transcribed cylinder is 44.18. diff of .2ci. divided by 2 since it is after all a taper - .1ci divided by 2 again since it does not taper appreciably on the sides - .05ci times 8 cyl = .4ci of iron removed. If every UOA was representative of actual wear and only showed 1ppm, it would take .4 * 1000000 /231 to get gallons of oil (231 inches per gallon) then times 4 (quarts per gallon) and div 5 (quarts per oil change) to get oil changes.
Suffice to say, to develope a rather small cylinder taper over the first life of the motor, it will take 1385 oil changes. If we find this taper in a spectacular 200K miles (which I think syn oil is capable of providing) each oil change would have to occur 144 miles apart. Kinda unrealistic no?
Lets say that 50ppm is found in each UOA then that is 28 oil changes or 7150 miles apart - more realistic
at any rate, the z28 mentioned before *will* have this taper (or greater) by 200K (or else it will be in record books, on NBC nightly news, and elected president.) The UOAs posted thus far therefore are not indicative of the actual wear encountered. (and of course we have not discussed whether timing chains and gears wear or not, whether camshafts and lifters wear or not, lifter bores, valves and seats, guides, rod side clearances, wrist pins, rings etc etc)
What have I painstakingly tried to show? a UOA might give a good indication of a fuel pump leak or a coolant leak, and might give reference to how well the additives are holding up - but thats it. there is little if any inferrable correlation between the wear materials in a UOA and the actual wear encountered. (not to mention, these pieces of iron will pass thru the tightest filter made like it was a super highway and they were on a moped)
**note - the calculations I gave showed a ppm count using straight particle count, which of course is near impossible to do. actualy its a w/vol count (mass) in which case since a molecule of iron is denser than one of oil (last time I checked, iron sinks in liquid) that actual volume of oil is much much greater, but I wanted to show in simple calculations how much UOAs are NOT showing you.
Have I done a satisfactory job? Are you pleased with the results?
1) Its only because I am divulging information people dont want to hear. It would be the same if this forum dealt with religion or politics, and there are many who claim oil brand loyalty is the new religion. (if you dont believe me, ask a dealer why amsoil wont go after API cert) Once a misconception or perception gets underway - its a major biotch to intercept or reroute. As Dennis Hopper once eloquently put it: 'You cant land on one-seventh'
2) I guarantee that if you looked hard enuf you would find more mis-spellings. Im not too worried about that detracting from the math yanno? ;-)
2b) if I would have spelled it homogenius would that have indicated a smart gay guy?
I'm trying to convince a couple friends of mine that Mobil 1 is good to at least 6K and that is being very conservative. I used to be a 3K Mobil 1 changer until I found this board and the insightful posters on it.
Anyhow, is there any solid evidence I can present to my friends so they won't throw good oil down the drain?
Anyhow, is there any solid evidence I can present to my friends so they won't throw good oil down the drain?
Refer them to the Mobil1 website, or have them perform Used Oil Analysis, or read the analysis of oil that others have performed.
Patman
Staff member
Our UOA section on here is full of UOAs which show that Mobil 1 is not all finished up by 3k. It might not show the absolute best wear numbers in all cases, but the one thing that is for sure, this oil is good for moderately extended drains. I wouldn't push it to 15 or 20k but 6k is pretty much a guarantee that it'll be totally safe.
it is very annoying to see someone be so bold as to correct someone elses typing errors.
anyways, quad makes alot of sence.
anyways, quad makes alot of sence.
quote:
You could probably take the Mobil 1 to 7500 miles, especially if you are doing a lot of highway driving.
Does anyone read the posts above them before posting or is this just a big rant? Mystic, 7,500 is cake for any good synlube.
Buster, maybe you need to take a look at some of the posts involving synthetic oil in the UOA section. There have been several posts where different brands of synthetic oil were used and the synthetic oil was having problems at 7500 or 8000 miles, or even less.
You could probably take the Mobil 1 to 7500 miles, especially if you are doing a lot of highway driving.
Does anyone read the posts above them before posting or is this just a big rant? Mystic, 7,500 is cake for any good synlube.
Buster, maybe you need to take a look at some of the posts involving synthetic oil in the UOA section. There have been several posts where different brands of synthetic oil were used and the synthetic oil was having problems at 7500 or 8000 miles, or even less.
I'm not impressed with M1 in its current OTC form new or used, regardless of drain interval.
By the way that M1/XOM formula has changed at least 4 times in the last 48 months. Which Mobil1 are you all discussing ? Which country / regional formulation ?
In general I see better results with Schaeffers 5w-30 7000 Blend in Passenger car applications than any basic M1 formulation in drains of 12,000 miles or less. Much cheaper too.
I base that not on snappy and vague math formulas but interpreting thousands of oil analysis results.
By the way that M1/XOM formula has changed at least 4 times in the last 48 months. Which Mobil1 are you all discussing ? Which country / regional formulation ?
In general I see better results with Schaeffers 5w-30 7000 Blend in Passenger car applications than any basic M1 formulation in drains of 12,000 miles or less. Much cheaper too.
I base that not on snappy and vague math formulas but interpreting thousands of oil analysis results.
Granted, I don't have the benefit of seeing thousands of oil analyses, but based on what's been posted to this forum, it seems to me that Mobil 1 SuperSyn does quite well—as good as or better than virtually anything else that's posted.quote:
Originally posted by Terry:
I'm not impressed with M1 in its current OTC form new or used, regardless of drain interval.
By the way that M1/XOM formula has changed at least 4 times in the last 48 months. Which Mobil1 are you all discussing ? Which country / regional formulation ?
In general I see better results with Schaeffers 5w-30 7000 Blend in Passenger car applications than any basic M1 formulation in drains of 12,000 miles or less. Much cheaper too.
I base that not on snappy and vague math formulas but interpreting thousands of oil analysis results.
Specifically, what is it about Mobil 1 that doesn't "impress" you?
Hey if Mobile 1 changed the oil every 7500 miles during that 1,000,000 mile BMW test, that should tell you something. Maybe that's the max they could go with the oil, or else the engine may not have made it to one million mile if they chose to change it say at 10,000 miles.
Leo
Leo
Gman II, Specifically,
1) limited EP capability
2) limited solvency
3) cost benefit vs the detractors above
Add a little LC, and a little #132 Schaeffers moly ep add and the 10w-30 is really a great oil !
See Molekules specific formulas for the precise mixtures.
You heard it here for free !!
1) limited EP capability
2) limited solvency
3) cost benefit vs the detractors above
Add a little LC, and a little #132 Schaeffers moly ep add and the 10w-30 is really a great oil !
See Molekules specific formulas for the precise mixtures.
You heard it here for free !!
I tend to lean toward Quad on UOA. I just think an UOA is too crude to be the monitor for engine wear. You can infer some general data points from a UOA about wear and espically coolant leaks, but generally there are just too many variables to really understand why one UOA is better than another. Just looks at the spread with the same oil in the forum- total elapsed time of oil in engine, temp range over UOA, engine type, engine age, engine oil temp, engine oil capacity, ambient dust conditions, type of oil filer and size, type of air filter and size, condition of PVC system, driving styles, driving distance, ambient humidity , etc.
This is ignoring variance within the same oil due to manufacturing, changes in formula and age. Also, most folks on this forum do not run the same oil to really get long term trends with UOA. It too much fun changing. And looking for the next better oil
.
Is not the real intent on of a UOA to determine if the oil is still meeting the lubrication needs for the next cycle not to measure engine wear? If that is the case, then all the variables above are mute, you just look at the condition of the oil. via the UOA. Of course, any really out of bound specs would suggest some reasonable action. But even here, most times you would just tend to monitor again after checking the obvious things like air filters, PVC, oil filters, coolant leaks.
[ July 10, 2003, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Fillherup ]
This is ignoring variance within the same oil due to manufacturing, changes in formula and age. Also, most folks on this forum do not run the same oil to really get long term trends with UOA. It too much fun changing. And looking for the next better oil
Is not the real intent on of a UOA to determine if the oil is still meeting the lubrication needs for the next cycle not to measure engine wear? If that is the case, then all the variables above are mute, you just look at the condition of the oil. via the UOA. Of course, any really out of bound specs would suggest some reasonable action. But even here, most times you would just tend to monitor again after checking the obvious things like air filters, PVC, oil filters, coolant leaks.
[ July 10, 2003, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Fillherup ]
It is not only patronizing but condescending. One of the most impressive aspects of this board is that most everyone can have even a 'heated' discussion with varying opinions and, at worst, agree to disagree in the end without personally or professionally insulting other forum members.
Stooping to this level does not, IMO, add any credibility to one's position or lend support for one's professional credentials.
I believe the objective is to share what we know and increase our knowledge in this area for whatever personal motivations may apply for each of us....and even have some fun.
A little respect and professional courtesy for each other and varying opinions goes a long way in my book in establishing one's credibility and purported intelligence.
original post by Quad Driver. No manufacturer recommends an extended drain. All manufacturers void the warranty with an extended drain. No oil makers recommend an extended drain (note: I said makers, not blenders: shaeffers, castol, RP, redline, and amsoil have not now, nor ever have had wells, refineries or tankers or anything, other than a big vat full of stuff they pretty much get from the same suppliers)
Humm. Seem to me that this statement is most interesting, since,
1. No auto manufacture to date, has voided a warranty for using extended drains.
2. In Europe these auto same manufactures, recommend 10,000 mile interval oil changes.
3. Those companies that blend as you say, do indeed make their oil. Those refineries as you called them actually pump their sludge out of the ground and boil it, til an oil like substance is produce to meet the minimum standards for SAE and API, then mixed in an additive package that again meets the minimum standards because exceeding those stardards would dig into their profit margins.
4. Oil makers as you call them, have no reason to recommend an extended drain interval because at 3,000 miles, their profits are soaring.
But I'm just reaching here. It's not like this information is not readily available, makes sense or can be proven. Who goes to Europe anyways.
[ July 10, 2003, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: rchavis ]
Patman
Staff member
I've been trying to convince my LS1 friends to give it a try, as I think it would definitely work better than M1 5w30 and 10w30. So yes, I would give it a try myself (although I still think Redline is perfectly suited for the LS1)
Re engine wear, and the point made by RCHavis. I had the distinct impression UOA was a tool in targetting wear levels, by truck fleet owners, as well as oil condition. The long life of truck diesel engines at very extended change intervals seems to bear this out. I'd certainly like to try a UOA over here in UK, as the semi-synth in the 03 Civic 2.0 I drive has a 12.5k interval!
Terry voiced his specific problems with Mobil 1
What are the reasons these components might have been omitted from the supersyn additive package? It seems likely they knew of these problems when they formulated it.
- Status
Similar threads
