Is there any solid scientific evidence that Mobil 1 is good for extended drains?

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by mph:


If his UOA's are less than excellent, then why the heck did he leave the oil in so long? That's the point of doing UOA. (I don't believe that they would be excellent, but you didn't mention that your hypothetical guy is an idiot, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.)

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therein lies the point.....to a 'car guy', an enthusiast, a racer, a professional mechanic, etc, as I pointed out before it would never even OCCUR to them to use an extended drain!!

Can you imagine Tony Eury walking up to little E tomorrow and going 'hey your UOA from last weeks 7th place was still acceptable, we are gonna run the same oil this week'???

What do you think the reaction would be? Probably be governed a bit by the purse at risk (even tho little E can afford to replace his ride 10 times a week for cash and none of us can. )

You all are missing the point. Over the last number of decades *I* have become the control variable not by choice. My fleet has already outlasted yours. My numbers are the ones you all dream to someday hit (although statistically the averages say you will all have traded away by 58K miles) Ill even go far as to say Ill use the mic of your chosing to proof my motors against anyones who has used extended drains. And I want some money on it. Problem is, in 38 years, I have never been taken up on that bet. and as my anecdote for evidence, the softest part of the engine is the bearings. Bearing clearance is the number 1 factor in determining net oil pressure other than a failed pump. I use a hyper accurate sun-pro gauge. My oil pressure at any RPM in my 215K mile truck is within ONE HALF PSI of what it was new. I do too many rebuilds and bottom ends on Z28s running M1, amsoil, RP, redline to know that they are not anywhere near that with 1/4 the miles. (and to add insult to injury, this truck tended to pull the transporter bringing said cars in)

and ps - if environmental concerns REALLY drove extended drains (given that used oil retails for 75 cents per gallon for furnaces), people would be buying a lot of metros to save the much more used GAS vs OIL

 

[3 Mad Ponchos]

quote:

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Fine, the VOA of ANY modern oil is better than the UOA (which still does not take into account hydrocarbon solids loading) of the 3K M1. Q.E.D

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The fact that other oils can do the job does not disprove the fact that M1 can do it just as well, even used.

Cheers, 3MP

 

[3 Mad Ponchos]

quote:

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You all are missing the point.

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Yes, I think it's safe to say, I have no idea what your point is. Why not start over with a more cohesive outline of your argument.

Cheers, 3MP

 

[Patman]

I must admit, I'm confused too. Does he want us to do 3k intervals with dino? 7.5k intervals with dino? 3k intervals with Mobil 1? My head hurts.

 

[mph]

quote:

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Originally posted by QuadDriver:
Fine, the VOA of ANY modern oil is better than the UOA (which still does not take into account hydrocarbon solids loading) of the 3K M1. Q.E.D

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A VOA is not a measure of an oil's ability to protect. It may be a hint, but is certainly not proof. QED does not belong at the end of your statement.

The proof is in the oil's ability to produce low wear metal rates. In order to show that 3,000-mile-old M1 is worse than any oil on the market, you need to show analyses demonstrating that more wear metals are produced in an engine with M1, between 3,000 and 6,000 miles, than are produced in the engine running cheap oil to 3,000 miles.

It's the wear metals that are the truth, like the ones that come from the bearings you're proud of. You cannot predict wear metals from a VOA alone.

[ July 09, 2003, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: mph ]

 

[MikeW]

Sorry buddy, I think your guessing here, and I don't buy it. If you have real numbers, now would be the time to put your cards on the table.

In extreme conditions (very hot, very cold, high stress), I rather have 3K mile old synth (real group IV/V no VII) than new dead dino. In normal conditions, the limits neither oil would likely be tested.

I rifled through some of the VOA and UOA posts, there were a couple of UOAs on MI 5w30. The SUS viscosity was withing a point or two of the VOA post I found. This means it is NOT shearing. Base stock doesn't shear. What shears is the VII in dino (or super wide range Synths that also use VII). They don't do pour point in the VOA, but I'd expect the high temp viscosity to move more than the low temp, and that isn't happening.

quote:

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Originally posted by QuadDriver:

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeW:
Quaddriver,

M1 @ 3K is better then dead dino new. It still has a lower pour point, higher flash point, less tendency to shear down, better film strength, better lubricity, etc..

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Not a chance. Syn oil STILL has volatility expressed as a % of weight as is normalized to hours often expressed as a 3 K mile interval. After 3K, M1s pour point will have moved to that of straight weight in the middle of its viscosity range.

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[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:

quote:

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Fine, the VOA of ANY modern oil is better than the UOA (which still does not take into account hydrocarbon solids loading) of the 3K M1. Q.E.D

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The fact that other oils can do the job does not disprove the fact that M1 can do it just as well, even used.

Cheers, 3MP

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So what you are saying is, used mobil 1 oil is JUST AS GOOD, not one IOTA worse IN ANY REGARD, than brand new mobil 1?

Your credibility goes right up there with 'I didnt inhale' if you answer in the affirmative.

And since sane people realize that used mobil 1 is in fact, less 'good' than new mobil1 (and the UOAs bear this out as you have repeatedly shown), CLEARLY (why do I feel logic is no longer being taught in college?) the extended portion of the drain interval is being run with an oil now INFERIOR to the guy who changes his at whatever interval, and I dont care if it is 100 miles or 100K miles.

and here is the question everyone should have asked: even if the UOA DID show high wear*, what are you gonna do about it? there is no PM you can perform to fix it or even prevent it.

* as anyone who has ever actually done a UOA had better know, UOAs do NOT show internal engine damage, they dont even show actual wear all that well** the particles that remain in suspension are incidental in nature, when a 'wear indicator' spikes abnormally to cause alarm, it typically does so in a few hundred miles until a rebuild is neccessitated. You would have to be born under the luckiest of stars to do a UOA 10 miles after a ping hammered a rod, ovalizing the bearing, on its way to a full failure in a few days if not hours

** math quiz, if a 4inch bore has .009" (this is a figure where the engine block is still servicable without an overbore) of taper on a 3.5 inch stroke, how many ppm of iron must have been found lifetime? (assume 5 qt sump) skipping ahead: if the ppm of iron was always low to not cause alarm, then CLEARLY not enuf iron was found in the UOA found to account for the wear.

The point, for those with issues, is an extended drain is NOT a good idea, there is no evidence that an extended drain protects better than regular changes. There is vast evidence, as provided by the users of this board, that people are running on oil of less quality that the cheapest dino oil available, for the bulk of the life of their motor. No manufacturer recommends an extended drain. All manufacturers void the warranty with an extended drain. No oil makers recommend an extended drain (note: I said makers, not blenders: shaeffers, castol, RP, redline, and amsoil have not now, nor ever have had wells, refineries or tankers or anything, other than a big vat full of stuff they pretty much get from the same suppliers)

A little common sense please. Thats all we ask.

 

[Patman]

Oil starts degrading as soon as you put it in and drive your car. So should we change our oil everytime we get home each night? Obviously not.

It's all about figuring out at what point does the oil become so degraded that it's causing your engine wear to suffer. We've seen enough UOAs on here with oils going well beyond 3k (including Mobil 1) which show less than 5ppm each of the major wear metals. That is enough proof right there that the oil isn't causing a problem when left in your engine for extended intervals.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

So are you telling us that you have seen, or better yet had interpreted by an expert such as Terry Dyson, Used Oil Analysis that showed low wear metals, YET the engine still experienced premature failure?

 

[mph]

quote:

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Originally posted by QuadDriver:
So what you are saying is, used mobil 1 oil is JUST AS GOOD, not one IOTA worse IN ANY REGARD, than brand new mobil 1?

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Would you please try to follow your own arguments? You claimed that used M1 was worse than any oil on the market, not just new M1. That's what we're calling "BS" on.

quote:

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(why do I feel logic is no longer being taught in college?)

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Well, I probably went to college a lot more recently than you did, and we were instructed in presenting an argument clearly and specifically. I think you're coming up a little short in that regard.

For the sake of clarity, would you please post exactly what oil regimine you're recommending? Let's say for a passenger car with a manufacturer-recommended 7,500 mile normal change interval on any SL oil. The car sees only normal use with a good dose of highway miles. Please be specific as to:

1) Synthetic or dino
2) Change interval
3) What UOA regimine, if any, and what influence the results have on the change interval
4) Why the selected change interval is more appropriate than a longer interval
5) Why the selected change interval is more appropriate than a shorter interval

This will help us to understand exactly what you're advocating. Please do not use the term "extended drains" without specifying what you are comparing them to (3,000 miles, the manufacturer's interval, etc.).

[ July 09, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: mph ]

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooManyWheels:
To me, the most convincing evidence on M1's quality is the just posted 10,000 mile interval in a 3.4 Toyota. If it can post those results in that motor, it should be good for extended intervals in almost anything.

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That was a report on my truck and I agree. I didn't expect to run it that long but it looks like it made it fine. Especially considering I let the vehicle idle quite a bit last winter.

I have used Mobil-1 and 10K OCI in the past on 2 other vehicles and had no trouble. One was a Toyota Corolla I bought new and had 160K miles on it when I sold it. It used less than 1 quart between changes at that time.

The other vehicle is a Nissan Pathfinder V6 that I bought with 60K miles and now has 213K miles. I still own it. I've alwasy run 10w30 M1 in it. It's just starting to use a bit more than a quart of oil between changes.

Who knows though, maybe I've just been lucky...

 

[buster]

To answer the original question, Mobil 1 is as capable of extended drains as any other oil I've seen. How many oils stay in grade after 10k miles like the recent Toyota UOA using M1 with 1ppm of lead? Not many.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
I can guarantee you that a big reason why people want to do extended intervals is not money, but in fact it's time. For those of us doing oil changes on more than one vehicle, it makes no sense to do it every 3k, when we know we can go 5k or more instead. Some of us simply do not want to be crawling under the car every 3k, plain and simple.

There are many people on here who never do oil changes as frequently as 3k, but yet have gotten extremely long life out of their engines.

Simply put, with a good oil, and the use of UOAs, there is no need to stick with the 3k interval just because Jiffy Lube pumps it into your head to think it's necessary or your engine will die. Even without UOAs, if you go to a 5 or 6k interval with synthetic oil, you'll get a longer engine life than you probably need (IOW, you'll trade the car, or it's body will rot out, long before that engine actually wears out)

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This is exactly right. It's not the $$ to me, it's the pain in the butt factor. I have 3 vehicles to maintain, one with a teenage driver who is just now getting to be helpful in that area.

I've probably pushed my oil longer than I should have in the past but so far I've had every engine last as long as I wanted to keep the vehicle without internal wear related work ever needing done.

What's that saying? Oh yea, YMMV...

 

[Patman]

Just wait until MinnesotaNole comes back to the board and sees how many replies his question has generated!!

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeW:
Base stock doesn't shear.

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Oh dear lord.

Does the syn oil have a volatility? (ans: yes)

then one or both of the following statements must be true:

a) the base stock was not homogenious
b) it sheared

Not even the makers or blenders of syn oil claim is does NOT shear. They claim it is RESISTIVE to shear which is an exact a number as saying 'if you drive short trips FREQUENTLY.' Completely unquantifiable.

Cmon now, this is supposed to be basic stuff.

 

[buster]

What makes an oil capable of extended drains IMO is the quality of the base stock and additive package. Mobil 1 has TBN numbers around 11-12, which are very good. It also uses a high quality base oil that can go the distance. The weakest part of M1 might be it's additive package but from our UOA's I don't really see how anyone could say this oil is not as capable as any other? Now if we constantly saw reports like the recent Amsoil 0w-30 one, then I'd say hands down, Amsoil is a really good extended drain oil.

 

[Texcowboy]

Lets keep it simple please, My belief is that I am safe using Mobil 1 for 5k. If i used dino, 3k. Is that correct, without all of the tech talk?

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Oil starts degrading as soon as you put it in and drive your car. So should we change our oil everytime we get home each night? Obviously not.

It's all about figuring out at what point does the oil become so degraded that it's causing your engine wear to suffer. We've seen enough UOAs on here with oils going well beyond 3k (including Mobil 1) which show less than 5ppm each of the major wear metals. That is enough proof right there that the oil isn't causing a problem when left in your engine for extended intervals.

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Yes, I am sure the oil can go long past 3K, as I am saying now thrice, use the long drain interval in your service manual. regardless of the oil used, the rate at which it is fouled is the same and the ability to hold the fouling in check is due wholly to its additive package, which, given that they tend to come from lubrizol, or someone who got them from lubrizol, are once again, the same.

I repeat myself....if you all can devote cylinder upon cylinder of disk space about oil filters that might be a smidgen better here or there, why then does the truly important stuff (quiality of the oil in the case) get gloseed over? Is oil still THAT expensive?

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Texcowboy:
Lets keep it simple please, My belief is that I am safe using Mobil 1 for 5k. If i used dino, 3k. Is that correct, without all of the tech talk?

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Yep. Like I said in here (and have said many times), if you do 5-6k intervals with a good synthetic (and even Mobil 1 qualifies there) you'll get a longer life out of your engine than you probably need.

 

[buster]

quote:

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(and even Mobil 1 qualifies there)

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Patman, when are you going to realize that Mobil 1 is a great oil? You imply that Schaeffer's, Amsoil and Redline are more capable, yet we see NO proof of this. You have to consider the UOA's here. We see one really good Redline UOA and your all over it, yet we've seen more then enough M1 UOA's to suggest its definitely a top notch oil.....how much proof do you need?

[ July 09, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: buster ]