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Cheers, 3MPquote:Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new? Why would everyone fret over oil filters used when there is a willingness to run the next 'drain interval' on substandard oil???? I ask again, but not so rhetorically, if the oil is 'acceptable for continued use' and that is ok with you, then why not just buy some ND or SB oil from the get go???? What you are doing in effect is: first drain interval: perfect oil second drain: so so oil third drain: still ok forth: ad nauseum it is NO DIFFERENT to the engine than using a good oil for the first, then whatever you can find in the basement for 2,3,4 etc. All to save a few bucks. Is oil THAT expensive? (not to mention, you change the filter - expense, replace the oil in that filter - expense, and pay for an anal - expense - you are but a few bucks away from a complete oil change as it is)
Originally posted by TooManyWheels: To me, the most convincing evidence on M1's quality is the just posted 10,000 mile interval in a 3.4 Toyota. If it can post those results in that motor, it should be good for extended intervals in almost anything.
quote:I understand completely what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's quite that simple. This is something that you would have to substantiate with multiple UOAs to prove your premise. From my reading of the UOAs posted to this forum, I'd say that the wear numbers during extended drains with the better synthetics match or exceed the performance of conventional oils at short intervals when the wear metals are "adjusted" to ppm per 1000 miles. Also, there are certain conditions that an engine can be subjected to in those "first 3000 miles" that can easily tax a conventional oil beyond its means. This is where having a synthetic in the sump can prove especially beneficial.
Originally posted by QuadDriver: Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new?
quote:Nope. In this recent UOA, for example, the wear metal rates (ppm/mile) look pretty much the same in the second 5,000 miles as they do in the first 5,000 miles. I see no evidence for a decrease in the oil's ability to protect the engine.
Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new?
quote:Nope, in my study at least, 3k-old Mobil 1 was still basically as good as new. TBN had dropped substantially but was still above the equilibrium point, and all other indicators were basically unchanged. I wouldn't think twice about running synthetic to at least 7500.
Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new?
quote:You assume that money is the only objective for using longer drain intervals.
All to save a few bucks. Is oil THAT expensive?
quote:You don't say how long your idea of an extended interval is, but if I were to take a 7500 interval, for example, there'd be no need to change the filter, and doing an analysis once to ensure that your engine isn't unusually hard on the oil would probably suffice for the life of the car. Cheers, 3MP
(not to mention, you change the filter - expense, replace the oil in that filter - expense, and pay for an anal - expense - you are but a few bucks away from a complete oil change as it is)
quote:AS I pointed out in another post, synthetic oil is only appx 10% improved over non syn oil, and even then its a stretch. So fine, I give you an extended drain interval from 7500 miles to 8250 miles. The point still remains, the oil is no longer as good. It is solids loaded (or if its not then it has failed COMPLETELY as a motor oil), it has some fuel in it, and all oils have some wear in them. Syn oils simply create uniform hydrocarbon chain lengths. no more, no less. They have the same energy in the C-C and C-H bonds as non syn. period. they do not form cyclical molecures (hence they become the aromoatic family and boil off well below room temp) they do not form branched molecules else they form n,n-blank-tane, they shear nearly the same (the tiny amount of impurities in todays dino oil account for nearly all the shear) Dont get me wrong, I *use* syn oil, but it is NOT the elixir of youth and in no way shape or form is it of any use as a motor oil past a drain interval, trebly especially with what you can buy off the shelf brand new. Lets put it antoher way: I have a truck with 215K miles on it running syn oil since I got it. I used 5-7K mile changes and tow heavy things every week. Lets say 'Joe' has the same truck, and he filled it when he got it with some syn oil, and ran UOAs for the same 13 years and used his truck exactly the same as I did, and he did it on 3-4 oil changes. which engine do you think has less wear? Which would you want to buy if they came for sale? I can get an entire 3rd grade class to answer this correctly, im hoping this BBS can also...
Originally posted by G-Man II:quote:I understand completely what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's quite that simple. This is something that you would have to substantiate with multiple UOAs to prove your premise. From my reading of the UOAs posted to this forum, I'd say that the wear numbers during extended drains with the better synthetics match or exceed the performance of conventional oils at short intervals when the wear metals are "adjusted" to ppm per 1000 miles. Also, there are certain conditions that an engine can be subjected to in those "first 3000 miles" that can easily tax a conventional oil beyond its means. This is where having a synthetic in the sump can prove especially beneficial.
Originally posted by QuadDriver: Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new?
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quote:'still basically' is *still* NOT as good as. And yes, money is the ONLY objective for longer drain intervals. If anyone tells you different then they have no earthly idea what they are talking about.
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos: Nope, in my study at least, 3k-old Mobil 1 was still basically as good as new. TBN had dropped substantially but was still above the equilibrium point, You assume that money is the only objective for using longer drain intervals.
quote:Not a chance. Syn oil STILL has volatility expressed as a % of weight as is normalized to hours often expressed as a 3 K mile interval. After 3K, M1s pour point will have moved to that of straight weight in the middle of its viscosity range.
Originally posted by MikeW: Quaddriver, M1 @ 3K is better then dead dino new. It still has a lower pour point, higher flash point, less tendency to shear down, better film strength, better lubricity, etc..
quote:I can guarantee you that a big reason why people want to do extended intervals is not money, but in fact it's time. For those of us doing oil changes on more than one vehicle, it makes no sense to do it every 3k, when we know we can go 5k or more instead. Some of us simply do not want to be crawling under the car every 3k, plain and simple. There are many people on here who never do oil changes as frequently as 3k, but yet have gotten extremely long life out of their engines. Simply put, with a good oil, and the use of UOAs, there is no need to stick with the 3k interval just because Jiffy Lube pumps it into your head to think it's necessary or your engine will die. Even without UOAs, if you go to a 5 or 6k interval with synthetic oil, you'll get a longer engine life than you probably need (IOW, you'll trade the car, or it's body will rot out, long before that engine actually wears out)
Originally posted by QuadDriver:quote:'still basically' is *still* NOT as good as. And yes, money is the ONLY objective for longer drain intervals. If anyone tells you different then they have no earthly idea what they are talking about.
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos: Nope, in my study at least, 3k-old Mobil 1 was still basically as good as new. TBN had dropped substantially but was still above the equilibrium point, You assume that money is the only objective for using longer drain intervals.
Cheers, 3MPquote:Did you get anyone to read that sample? Both sample paths showed the cooper surface was coming off the bearings, a little lead was being drawn in (due to radius ride - a normal affliction), the block was becoming porous at the same rate, all the air filters allowed sand in at the same rate (or the hyperuetectic pistons scuffed the skirts at the same rate) and the additive packages depleted at the same rate. recomendation: change the oil more at every 5K and you will hit 200K with no sweat.
Originally posted by mph:quote:Nope. In this recent UOA, for example, the wear metal rates (ppm/mile) look pretty much the same in the second 5,000 miles as they do in the first 5,000 miles. I see no evidence for a decrease in the oil's ability to protect the engine.
Can I get you and others to admit that after the first 3000 miles, the M1 is no longer as 'good as new' and in fact is now worse than just about any oil you can buy new?
quote:If his UOA's are excellent, I would buy his truck instead of yours, because you do not have an UOAs to document the condition of your engine. I know he has little wear. You probably have little wear, probably even less wear, but it's still a "probably" versus a measured quantity. You might have a vacuum leak or a little glycol contamination. If his UOA's are less than excellent, then why the heck did he leave the oil in so long? That's the point of doing UOA. (I don't believe that they would be excellent, but you didn't mention that your hypothetical guy is an idiot, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.)
Originally posted by QuadDriver: Lets put it antoher way: I have a truck with 215K miles on it running syn oil since I got it. I used 5-7K mile changes and tow heavy things every week. Lets say 'Joe' has the same truck, and he filled it when he got it with some syn oil, and ran UOAs for the same 13 years and used his truck exactly the same as I did, and he did it on 3-4 oil changes. which engine do you think has less wear? Which would you want to buy if they came for sale?
quote:
I can get an entire 3rd grade class to answer this correctly, im hoping this BBS can also...
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quote:You're telling me I have no earthly idea what my own motivations are for using extended drains?? If money was an object, I'd use 88-cent Advance Auto oil and $1.99 Fram filters. And I'd probably be driving some $600 car, because after all, I can get to work just as well in a 1986 Ford Escort as I can in my Z28. I use extended drains because I like to do fewer oil changes. This is in part because I have other uses for my time, and in part because (horror of horrors!) I prefer to reduce the amount of toxic waste I introduce to the world. Even when disposed of properly -- which I cannot control, once I drop it off at the repository -- it still consumes resources to dispose of it. Better to just use less! Just because YOU cannot imagine any benefits other than financial, does not mean they are not there. Look, I think we've handed you some good stats and UOAs to back up our position that Mobil 1 is perfectly good for extended drains. Let's see your UOAs showing that it's not. Cheers, 3MP
And yes, money is the ONLY objective for longer drain intervals. If anyone tells you different then they have no earthly idea what they are talking about.
quote:No, I believe I am on record saying that everyone would be better off using one of todays modern oils at the best price they can get and using the long change interval and an OEM filter to get to 200+K miles. I think I also said that it would be next to impossible for you to convince me that a 3K interval is called for.
Originally posted by Mystic: QuadDriver, are you saying that a person would be just as well off using a good conventional oil (say Chevron Supreme) and changing it every 3000 miles, rather than using Mobil 1 for extended oil changes?
quote:Fine, the VOA of ANY modern oil is better than the UOA (which still does not take into account hydrocarbon solids loading) of the 3K M1. Q.E.D
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos: Look, I think we've handed you some good stats and UOAs to back up our position that Mobil 1 is perfectly good for extended drains. Let's see your UOAs showing that it's not. Cheers, 3MP
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