Is Mazda winning the SUV market?

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Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Owned a 2014 Mazda3 and still know owner. It has +100K miles on it in MA and absolutely no rust. I owned it for 60K and did very little to care for the outside besides the occasional car wash.


Have you ever had the rear quarter off one or repaired a rocker or other panels due to damage and seen the rust inside you don't usually see?
These threads go downhill fast, I gave my opinion that is all, like it or not that's all it is. Someone wants evidence of this? Should I take a picture of every bubble I see creeping out from under an emblem or what?
How much these vehicles rust or rot is as interesting to me as a bicycle falling over somewhere in China.


Hey Chief....you gave your opinion and I gave mine. I'm not saying Mazdas do not rust...I'm saying my Mazda had no obvious rust...that's it.
 
Chief? You don't know me so its Mr Chief to you. LOL The difference between you and me is I actually do tear them apart, no I have not torn into a newer one but given the history with this brand IMO its not a risk I would take owning one here.
A 2014 is way too new to be having those sorts of issues (it should in fact still be under rust through warranty) wait till its a little older then we will see, when it eventually sprouts from inside and becomes visible there usually isn't much left.
 
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I don't know about the new ones, but judging from my experience with the first gen Mazda 3, they do rust and in many cases it's really bad. If it weren't for my rigorous rust proofing regimen, my 2006 body panels and rockers would look like swiss cheese a number of years ago.

However I do remember people saying the same things about rust for, then new, Mazda 3 when compared to Protege. Many were sure that Mazda has worked it all out and there is nothing to worry about. And everything was fine for few years, until it wasn't.
So I agree with Trav's reservations on the new Mazdas and rust resistance. It's not an issue for those that keep their cars for about five years, but if true long term ownership is planned, then either skip Mazda or start a rustproofing regimen. That's my opinion on the rust subject regarding Mazda.
 
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Originally Posted by PimTac
I wonder how many of those rusty Mazda's came out of Flat Rock? The history of US/Japan cooperative assembly plants is not a good one.

Flat Rock MI, Fremont CA, and Normal IL all had issues with labor and in the end the Japan automakers cut their ties and left.



The Flat Rock Michigan plant only produced the MX-6, 626, and the Mazda6 during it's entire run as a Mazda plant and then as a 50/50 JV plant. The problem child rust bucket Mazda was the 3, all of which where build in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Rock_Assembly_Plant

Both Mazda and Mitsubishi pulled the plug on their only US plants (Flat Rock, MI and Normal, IL) because they where built during the Japanese boom years when sales where expected to keep growing and eventually have enough volume demand to keep the plants profitable. In both cases that never really happened. Mitsubishi built their Normal IL plant as a 50/50 JV with Chrysler when they had annual US sales of 76.4k units and a 0.5% market share. Chrysler pulled out in '91, and while Mitsubishi's US sales continue to climb to a high of 345k units in '02 they quickly crashed down to a low of 53k in '09 and have been slowly recovering ever since (2019 sales where 121k). A car manufacturing plant needs to run close to peak capacity to be profitable, which is typically around 150-200k units and they generally make 1 or 2 models. Mitsubishi never had the sales volume to keep a US plant above water so they closed down shop.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/mitsubishi/

It's a similar story for Mazda, their US sales peaked in '94 at 376k units, and have mostly floundered in the 200k range ever since. Even at last year's sales of 291k running a US plant without Ford (or now Toyota) taking up half the volume would be a losing proposition.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/mazda/

The NUMMI Fremont CA plant was different in that it was and old GM plant built in 1962 that was closed in 1982 because of production issues, and they reopened in '84 as 50/50 JV with GM as a way for Toyota to test if manufacturing in the US was viable at a much lower risk. GM benefited by learning Toyota's lean manufacturing first hand, and they got a bunch of badge engineered Toyota's to sell like the Geo Prizm and Pontiac Vibe. Labour unrest played a large role in closing the original GM plant in '82, but it had nothing to do with Toyota closing it down in '10. GM's departure in 09 was the biggest reason (and the resulting volume loss), with other factors being the plants old age, the high cost of doing business in California, and being far from their US supplier base in the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
 
Originally Posted by Jake_J

The NUMMI Fremont CA plant was different in that it was and old GM plant built in 1962 that was closed in 1982 because of production issues, and they reopened in '84 as 50/50 JV with GM as a way for Toyota to test if manufacturing in the US was viable at a much lower risk. GM benefited by learning Toyota's lean manufacturing first hand, and they got a bunch of badge engineered Toyota's to sell like the Geo Prizm and Pontiac Vibe. Labour unrest played a large role in closing the original GM plant in '82, but it had nothing to do with Toyota closing it down in '10. GM's departure in 09 was the biggest reason (and the resulting volume loss), with other factors being the plants old age, the high cost of doing business in California, and being far from their US supplier base in the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

I have 3 cars built in the Fremont plant. My wife's father, a Doctor, bought a 65 4-4-2; I have the build sheet. My 1993 Toyota 4WD pickup has more than 350K miles and is still in service. Our Tesla Model 3 was built in late 2018. All great vehicles.

I had friends older than me who worked a the old GM plant. They told me the El Camino line was the one to be on. The union had negotiated a crazy good contract. Of course the later 70's GM cars were pretty bad. NUMMI made world class cars. Tesla sells every Model 3 they can build. They are the 2nd biggest employeer in Fremont after Lam Research.

Ford had a plant in Milpitas, which is next door to Fremont. They cranked out Mustangs like hotcakes. It is now "The Great Mall".
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Jake_J

The NUMMI Fremont CA plant was different in that it was and old GM plant built in 1962 that was closed in 1982 because of production issues, and they reopened in '84 as 50/50 JV with GM as a way for Toyota to test if manufacturing in the US was viable at a much lower risk. GM benefited by learning Toyota's lean manufacturing first hand, and they got a bunch of badge engineered Toyota's to sell like the Geo Prizm and Pontiac Vibe. Labour unrest played a large role in closing the original GM plant in '82, but it had nothing to do with Toyota closing it down in '10. GM's departure in 09 was the biggest reason (and the resulting volume loss), with other factors being the plants old age, the high cost of doing business in California, and being far from their US supplier base in the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

I have 3 cars built in the Fremont plant. My wife's father, a Doctor, bought a 65 4-4-2; I have the build sheet. My 1993 Toyota 4WD pickup has more than 350K miles and is still in service. Our Tesla Model 3 was built in late 2018. All great vehicles.

I had friends older than me who worked a the old GM plant. They told me the El Camino line was the one to be on. The union had negotiated a crazy good contract. Of course the later 70's GM cars were pretty bad. NUMMI made world class cars. Tesla sells every Model 3 they can build. They are the 2nd biggest employeer in Fremont after Lam Research.

Ford had a plant in Milpitas, which is next door to Fremont. They cranked out Mustangs like hotcakes. It is now "The Great Mall".
There is a big difference between what went on in the Fremont plant under GM and what is going on today under Tesla. The UAW. Under Tesla, the plant is currently non-union. There is ample evidence that the union, among other things, was at least partially to blame for Toyota's exit. NUMMI was Toyota's ONLY union plant in the US. The UAW is trying to organize the plant now because of labor unrest. Elon is vehemently anti-union and if the UAW maneges to organize the plant, there is no telling what he will do.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...

I am not actually aware of that issue, I was referring to new 8 speed transmission and issues on AWD models. Actually there were several discussion here by owners (cannot remember who ditch here 2018 HL bcs. of transmission issue after few thousands of miles). However, search on Google will provide ample amount of info on that subject.
If someone is recommending HL to Mazda, then it is fair game to point to issues that those vehicles have or might have or had.

The AWD system on that RAV6 was pretty crude, seemed to just send power to the rear when the fronts started to slip...the shop that handled my repair said that the power transfer seemed to be way too abrupt at times and the issue was especially bad in the V6 models. They told me that some of the vehicles they had repaired before mine seemed to get damaged when the driver happened to have the front tires on a stop line in wet conditions and they spun on takeoff.
There was an electronic 4WD setting for under 25mph that helped a lot with the quirks in that AWD system, I hope this is all cleaned up for the RAV4 Prime hybrid in which I am already getting interested...
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
I hope this is all cleaned up for the RAV4 Prime hybrid in which I am already getting interested...
The new RAV4 Hybrid AWD system is an entirely different animal. It has a dedicated electric motor powering the rear wheels, the engine is not mechanically connected to them in any way. Furthermore, although it does have a CVT automatic, it is of an entirely different design than what is being used in non-hybrid Toyota products (and other makes) and has been ultra reliable.
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...

I am not actually aware of that issue, I was referring to new 8 speed transmission and issues on AWD models. Actually there were several discussion here by owners (cannot remember who ditch here 2018 HL bcs. of transmission issue after few thousands of miles). However, search on Google will provide ample amount of info on that subject.
If someone is recommending HL to Mazda, then it is fair game to point to issues that those vehicles have or might have or had.

The AWD system on that RAV6 was pretty crude, seemed to just send power to the rear when the fronts started to slip...the shop that handled my repair said that the power transfer seemed to be way too abrupt at times and the issue was especially bad in the V6 models. They told me that some of the vehicles they had repaired before mine seemed to get damaged when the driver happened to have the front tires on a stop line in wet conditions and they spun on takeoff.
There was an electronic 4WD setting for under 25mph that helped a lot with the quirks in that AWD system, I hope this is all cleaned up for the RAV4 Prime hybrid in which I am already getting interested...

System I have on Sienna is similar if not same. 100% of power to the front and than back if slips. It works for what is intended to do, but it is really, really simple and compared to similar systems, definiately behind in performance. But it does its job. Now, you are right. You can actually spin front wheels before it transfers to the back. There is still hint of torque steer although it is AWD. But, again, for Sienna, it is OK. With snow tires, it goes. I changed at 64k fluid in transfer case and rear differential as well as transmission, just in case. But than, now that vehicle will make at most 5k a year, so I would not expect issues with it, hopefully.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...

I am no driver of Korean vehicles or would buy one, but maybe there is a reason that people buy them?


It's called being brainwashed...
 
I worked there for two years … easy to see the trade deficit before your eyes …
and no, they are not Toyota fans either
 
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...

I am no driver of Korean vehicles or would buy one, but maybe there is a reason that people buy them?


It's called being brainwashed...


It's called they are producing excellent vehicles with very good interiors at very affordable prices. They are the Toyota of 1990. And you are talking like our grandparents talked in 1990, about Toyota, lol!
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
It's called they are producing excellent vehicles with very good interiors at very affordable prices. They are the Toyota of 1990. And you are talking like our grandparents talked in 1990, about Toyota, lol!


I see you've been brainwashed too...
 
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by Ws6
It's called they are producing excellent vehicles with very good interiors at very affordable prices. They are the Toyota of 1990. And you are talking like our grandparents talked in 1990, about Toyota, lol!


I see you've been brainwashed too...



I own one (2017 Hyundai Santa Fe XL AWD). Saved $5,000.00 over the Toyo/Honda.

Over on another board-a guy was cross shopping the Lincoln Aviator and the Kia Telluride. He couldn't come up with compelling enough evidence to spend $21,000,00 more on the Lincoln.

Ordered a fully loaded Telluride for the $21,000.00 savings....................
 
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by Ws6
It's called they are producing excellent vehicles with very good interiors at very affordable prices. They are the Toyota of 1990. And you are talking like our grandparents talked in 1990, about Toyota, lol!


I see you've been brainwashed too...


Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
 
Honestly, the thread title is misleading. Mazda is selling well but they will never sell the millions that Toyota or Honda sell. They just don't have the manufacturing capacity.

Buyers do appreciate the bang for the buck though.
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Honestly, the thread title is misleading. Mazda is selling well but they will never sell the millions that Toyota or Honda sell. They just don't have the manufacturing capacity.

Buyers do appreciate the bang for the buck though.

Exactly, and the cx5 especially is punching above its weight both in delivery and in sales.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by PimTac
Honestly, the thread title is misleading. Mazda is selling well but they will never sell the millions that Toyota or Honda sell. They just don't have the manufacturing capacity.

Buyers do appreciate the bang for the buck though.

Exactly, and the cx5 especially is punching above its weight both in delivery and in sales.

Perhaps Mazda should build more? Are they at capacity?
Demand exceeding capacity is a great problem for a company to have.
They can build a factory and/or increase price.

I don't know much about Mazdas except people seem to love 'em.
Make mine a Wankel RX7.
 
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by PimTac
Honestly, the thread title is misleading. Mazda is selling well but they will never sell the millions that Toyota or Honda sell. They just don't have the manufacturing capacity.

Buyers do appreciate the bang for the buck though.

Exactly, and the cx5 especially is punching above its weight both in delivery and in sales.

Perhaps Mazda should build more? Are they at capacity?
Demand exceeding capacity is a great problem for a company to have.
They can build a factory and/or increase price.

I don't know much about Mazdas except people seem to love 'em.
Make mine a Wankel RX7.


Mazda would probably rather not follow GM's 1960's methods that led to their collapse. You can only improve infrastructure at a certain pace. They are working on it, but not at the cost of making junk.
 
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