Is Mazda winning the SUV market?

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Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...

I am no driver of Korean vehicles or would buy one, but maybe there is a reason that people buy them?
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Trav
One thing I notice when you get the outside skin off the Subaru and Toyota vehicles is the very well constructed and strong unibody skeleton. I cant say the same for Mitsubishi, last generation Mazda, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles. I deal mostly with rust and collision damage although I don't do much heavy reconstruction anymore due to my age but once in a while I get the urge to really tear into one for my own enjoyment, I find body work very relaxing and challenging.

The newer Mazda may be different as I haven't worked on one in quite a while I cant say, IIRC the last on was a Mazda 6 for rotten rear quarters, it wasn't very impressive under the outer skin. Honda also makes a very good unibody on most of their vehicles, the small cars are a bit flimsy but not horrible.

You indicated in your post that 5 year old Toyota does not rust, but with that you are implying that Mazda will? I am not aware of any 5yr old Mazda's being rusty unless in accidents or something. I had 1998 Mazda Millenia 2.5 V6 that never rusted, made some 256k miles, never used drop of oil, though it went through batteries like crazy, could not start if it was not driven 10 days or so (and this is in Alabama) and had some really insignificant quirks. Overall, was really good car.
One thing that Mazda SUV's did not have issues, and Toyota, Honda and Subaru had plenty, is transmission.
I trust Trav's opinion. He is a straight shooter and he has WAY more actual experience in this area than you do.
Furthermore, I don't respect the opinion of anyone who claims that the quality of the Yugo they own is on-par with Toyota's quality. Also, Toyota/Aisin is not known for having transmission problems. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota is part of the discussion. Is this Toyota fetish forum? If not, than just lear to live with the fact that people discuss Toyota too.
The topic of this thread is... Is Mazda winning the SUV market? The fact that Toyota has been brought-up in this discussion doesn't give you license to bash them. For the Nth time, please keep your derogatory Toyota rhetoric to yourself.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Trav
One thing I notice when you get the outside skin off the Subaru and Toyota vehicles is the very well constructed and strong unibody skeleton. I cant say the same for Mitsubishi, last generation Mazda, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles. I deal mostly with rust and collision damage although I don't do much heavy reconstruction anymore due to my age but once in a while I get the urge to really tear into one for my own enjoyment, I find body work very relaxing and challenging.

The newer Mazda may be different as I haven't worked on one in quite a while I cant say, IIRC the last on was a Mazda 6 for rotten rear quarters, it wasn't very impressive under the outer skin. Honda also makes a very good unibody on most of their vehicles, the small cars are a bit flimsy but not horrible.

You indicated in your post that 5 year old Toyota does not rust, but with that you are implying that Mazda will? I am not aware of any 5yr old Mazda's being rusty unless in accidents or something. I had 1998 Mazda Millenia 2.5 V6 that never rusted, made some 256k miles, never used drop of oil, though it went through batteries like crazy, could not start if it was not driven 10 days or so (and this is in Alabama) and had some really insignificant quirks. Overall, was really good car.
One thing that Mazda SUV's did not have issues, and Toyota, Honda and Subaru had plenty, is transmission.
I trust Trav's opinion. He is a straight shooter and he has WAY more actual experience in this area than you do.
Furthermore, I don't respect the opinion of anyone who claims that the quality of the Yugo they own is on-par with Toyota's quality. Also, Toyota/Aisin is not known for having transmission problems. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota is part of the discussion. Is this Toyota fetish forum? If not, than just lear to live with the fact that people discuss Toyota too.
The topic of this thread is... Is Mazda winning the SUV market? The fact that Toyota has been brought-up in this discussion doesn't give you license to bash them. For the Nth time, please keep your derogatory Toyota rhetoric to yourself.

Google is your friend, if you missed discussion on this topic here by owners.
 
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...


People bash other brands relentlessly, and that's okay. 1 person mentions they don't like Toyota and the sky is falling. Yeah, Edy can be a bit over the top with his dislike of Toyota sometimes, but he's no worse than other members running into a thread that has nothing to do with Toyota and screeching about how great their toaster on wheels is.
 
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...


People bash other brands relentlessly, and that's okay. 1 person mentions they don't like Toyota and the sky is falling. Yeah, Edy can be a bit over the top with his dislike of Toyota sometimes, but he's no worse than other members running into a thread that has nothing to do with Toyota and screeching about how great their toaster on wheels is.


This is true. FCA bashing is a regular pastime on here by some, and GM is often a target as well. Doesn't mean that relentlessly bashing Toyota is warranted but it's bitter-sweet to watch those that call FCA or GM garbage get completely bent out of shape when their beloved Toyota becomes the target of what they've been liberally dishing out for years.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by PimTac
Only two things are certain on BITOG, thick versus thin arguments and edy bashing Toyota.


Yep, people love to bash Toyota, and gravitate to anything the Koreans make like a heard of sheeple...


People bash other brands relentlessly, and that's okay. 1 person mentions they don't like Toyota and the sky is falling. Yeah, Edy can be a bit over the top with his dislike of Toyota sometimes, but he's no worse than other members running into a thread that has nothing to do with Toyota and screeching about how great their toaster on wheels is.


This is true. FCA bashing is a regular pastime on here by some, and GM is often a target as well. Doesn't mean that relentlessly bashing Toyota is warranted but it's bitter-sweet to watch those that call FCA or GM garbage get completely bent out of shape when their beloved Toyota becomes the target of what they've been liberally dishing out for years.

Mazda has rust=get Highlander.
I pointed how some Toyota's had rust too before.
=You are bashing Toyota.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Trav
One thing I notice when you get the outside skin off the Subaru and Toyota vehicles is the very well constructed and strong unibody skeleton. I cant say the same for Mitsubishi, last generation Mazda, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles. I deal mostly with rust and collision damage although I don't do much heavy reconstruction anymore due to my age but once in a while I get the urge to really tear into one for my own enjoyment, I find body work very relaxing and challenging.

The newer Mazda may be different as I haven't worked on one in quite a while I cant say, IIRC the last on was a Mazda 6 for rotten rear quarters, it wasn't very impressive under the outer skin. Honda also makes a very good unibody on most of their vehicles, the small cars are a bit flimsy but not horrible.

You indicated in your post that 5 year old Toyota does not rust, but with that you are implying that Mazda will? I am not aware of any 5yr old Mazda's being rusty unless in accidents or something. I had 1998 Mazda Millenia 2.5 V6 that never rusted, made some 256k miles, never used drop of oil, though it went through batteries like crazy, could not start if it was not driven 10 days or so (and this is in Alabama) and had some really insignificant quirks. Overall, was really good car.
One thing that Mazda SUV's did not have issues, and Toyota, Honda and Subaru had plenty, is transmission.
I trust Trav's opinion. He is a straight shooter and he has WAY more actual experience in this area than you do.
Furthermore, I don't respect the opinion of anyone who claims that the quality of the Yugo they own is on-par with Toyota's quality. Also, Toyota/Aisin is not known for having transmission problems. You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota is part of the discussion. Is this Toyota fetish forum? If not, than just lear to live with the fact that people discuss Toyota too.
The topic of this thread is... Is Mazda winning the SUV market? The fact that Toyota has been brought-up in this discussion doesn't give you license to bash them. For the Nth time, please keep your derogatory Toyota rhetoric to yourself.

Google is your friend, if you missed discussion on this topic here by owners.

Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...
 
Quote
Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...

I am not actually aware of that issue, I was referring to new 8 speed transmission and issues on AWD models. Actually there were several discussion here by owners (cannot remember who ditch here 2018 HL bcs. of transmission issue after few thousands of miles). However, search on Google will provide ample amount of info on that subject.
If someone is recommending HL to Mazda, then it is fair game to point to issues that those vehicles have or might have or had.
 
Please keep the discussion technical. Everyone has opinions, no need to get personal about them.
 
Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Trav
One thing I notice when you get the outside skin off the Subaru and Toyota vehicles is the very well constructed and strong unibody skeleton. I cant say the same for Mitsubishi, last generation Mazda, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles. I deal mostly with rust and collision damage although I don't do much heavy reconstruction anymore due to my age but once in a while I get the urge to really tear into one for my own enjoyment, I find body work very relaxing and challenging.

The newer Mazda may be different as I haven't worked on one in quite a while I cant say, IIRC the last on was a Mazda 6 for rotten rear quarters, it wasn't very impressive under the outer skin. Honda also makes a very good unibody on most of their vehicles, the small cars are a bit flimsy but not horrible.




Are you referring to the pre-SkyActiv Mazda vehicle's?


Yes I have no experience with the newer ones but I see them in parking lots rusting bad enough. In the salt belt a Mazda isn't a car I would even consider.

Is there any evidence of this? I mean if it is true that new ones are rusting just like that, that would be astonishing.
 
Owned a 2014 Mazda3 and still know owner. It has +100K miles on it in MA and absolutely no rust. I owned it for 60K and did very little to care for the outside besides the occasional car wash.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...

I am not actually aware of that issue, I was referring to new 8 speed transmission and issues on AWD models. Actually there were several discussion here by owners (cannot remember who ditch here 2018 HL bcs. of transmission issue after few thousands of miles). However, search on Google will provide ample amount of info on that subject.
If someone is recommending HL to Mazda, then it is fair game to point to issues that those vehicles have or might have or had.


I drive the 8-speed in a Lexus. I have no doubt it's reliable and that's not the issue. The issue is the way it's programmed - too quick to upshift and too quick to downshift. Unless you drive like a grandma there's entirely too much spastic shifting. This transmission actually begs you to be easy on the throttle and punishes you for trying to do anything sporty.
 
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
Not exactly the transmission (although obviously involved in the transmission of power), but Toyota had big issues with the AWD system in the 2006-2013ish RAV4s.
I know because I sank $3500 in my 2006 "RAV6" when its AWD system started to fail just past 60kmiles.
The indy Toyota shop that handled the repair told me that they were seeing lots of those failures and debugged my problem in no time as a result.
Wish I still had the pic they took of the crack they found so I could remind myself of exactly what was failing...

I am not actually aware of that issue, I was referring to new 8 speed transmission and issues on AWD models. Actually there were several discussion here by owners (cannot remember who ditch here 2018 HL bcs. of transmission issue after few thousands of miles). However, search on Google will provide ample amount of info on that subject.
If someone is recommending HL to Mazda, then it is fair game to point to issues that those vehicles have or might have or had.


I drive the 8-speed in a Lexus. I have no doubt it's reliable and that's not the issue. The issue is the way it's programmed - too quick to upshift and too quick to downshift. Unless you drive like a grandma there's entirely too much spastic shifting. This transmission actually begs you to be easy on the throttle and punishes you for trying to do anything sporty.

On HL's there were failures and Toyota declined to replace numerous transmissions. Actually I think 53,xxx customers got letter basically stating: well, it shifts rough, and get used to it.
It seems that HL's and Sienna's with AWD were hit hardest. On programming issues, that is complaint across the board on Toyota's. When I was deciding what to buy, used, I purposely went with 2015 Sienna as it has 6 speed and 2GR-FE seems bit better at lower end than 2GR-FKS, at least in minivan.
 
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Owned a 2014 Mazda3 and still know owner. It has +100K miles on it in MA and absolutely no rust. I owned it for 60K and did very little to care for the outside besides the occasional car wash.

I would bet on that. I mean no one is denying that Mazda had some serious issues with rust. But, one would expect they resolved it.
 
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Owned a 2014 Mazda3 and still know owner. It has +100K miles on it in MA and absolutely no rust. I owned it for 60K and did very little to care for the outside besides the occasional car wash.


Have you ever had the rear quarter off one or repaired a rocker or other panels due to damage and seen the rust inside you don't usually see?
These threads go downhill fast, I gave my opinion that is all, like it or not that's all it is. Someone wants evidence of this? Should I take a picture of every bubble I see creeping out from under an emblem or what?
How much these vehicles rust or rot is as interesting to me as a bicycle falling over somewhere in China.
 
Originally Posted by M56959
Please keep the discussion technical. Everyone has opinions, no need to get personal about them.



Great post/point. A good reminder for everyone and me too.
 
Originally Posted by Dwight_Frye
I was in the market for an SUV last summer. I did not need 3 row seating or huge cargo space so a mid-size model was going to work for me. I needed AWD as I recently moved to a mountain community with occasional snowfall. I was prepared to pay cash for any model in the sub-$50K range that I liked. I wanted good power, not a gutless econobox that squeezed every mile out of a gallon of gas. I wanted some luxury features like a leather interior.
I ruled out any vehicle that had a CVT (goodbye Infiniti and Subaru). I ruled out any model that had a poor reliability record. I ruled out any model that had high maintenance costs (like a BMW) . I especially ruled out any model that was ugly (especially the Lexus') which is most of them.

I bought a Mazda CX 5 GT Reserve. They were offering 0.9% financing so I saved my cash as took advantage of their program. It has the 2.5 liter Skyactiv turbo engine with 250 hp (on premium fuel which is not an issue to me) and 310 ft/lbs of torque, tuned to deliver it below 4000 rpm's.
It drives very nicely. I don't care that it has a few less cubic feet of storage capacity than the competition. It is in my opinion also a heck of a lot better looking than the other models in the price range.
Would I have preferred a normally aspirated V6 or I6 with about 300 HP ? Heck yes. But I sure wouldn't have been happy with any less power.

Regarding the sales figures, you have to remember than many buyers are brand loyal or buy a car based upon perceived performance and past reliability. We also know that a lot of the manufacturers that once had a rather stellar reputation have produced some seriously crummy SUV's in the last couple of years. I wager that a good many buyers didn't do much in the way of homework before buying all of those CRV's, RAV4's and Rogues.

I did the same, for same reasons. I'd have liked an Sq5 more, but I drive 30k miles a year and didnt want to pay the Audi tax in repairs and maintenance.
 
Originally Posted by Vikas
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by Trav
One thing I notice when you get the outside skin off the Subaru and Toyota vehicles is the very well constructed and strong unibody skeleton. I cant say the same for Mitsubishi, last generation Mazda, Isuzu and Suzuki vehicles. I deal mostly with rust and collision damage although I don't do much heavy reconstruction anymore due to my age but once in a while I get the urge to really tear into one for my own enjoyment, I find body work very relaxing and challenging.

The newer Mazda may be different as I haven't worked on one in quite a while I cant say, IIRC the last on was a Mazda 6 for rotten rear quarters, it wasn't very impressive under the outer skin. Honda also makes a very good unibody on most of their vehicles, the small cars are a bit flimsy but not horrible.


Here:
https://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/skyactiv-body/


http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/car-body-torsional-rigidity-a-comprehensive-list/

You will note the cx5 is extremely rigid. You can tell when driving these cars. I could tell a huge difference in my z06 and 370z, etc. The numbers don't lie, and they do translate directly to how the car feels from behind the wheel and how it moves over irregular surfaces.


I read through the skyactiv-body and looked for "rust" or "corrosion" words; they were NOT mentioned. I was expecting Mazda to claim the new skyactive bodies are twice corrosion resistant or something which will
- acknowledge the problems with the old body
- specifically show how they have been handled in this generation

Alas, no such luck.

This is my second cx5. My first was a 2015, 106k miles, got rid of in 2019. It had no issues. You're talking about pre SA cars.
 
I wonder how many of those rusty Mazda's came out of Flat Rock? The history of US/Japan cooperative assembly plants is not a good one.

Flat Rock MI, Fremont CA, and Normal IL all had issues with labor and in the end the Japan automakers cut their ties and left.
 
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