Insane Electric Rate Increase $508.68/1522 kWh

[brianl703]

I would inquire if a properly sized mini split could take care of the dehumidification using less electricity. Many split systems use inverters and have a dry mode which is what you are looking for.

Not during heating season. A mini-split dehumidifies by working as an air conditioner. It'll dehumidify AND cool the conditioned space too. Not what you want during heating season.

During heating season, the waste heat from a dehumidifier is a benefit.

 

[gathermewool]

It's not maybe 50% more vs. NG but at your electricity rate,

.3342 x 27 = $9.02, that's the equivalent a gallon of propane would have to cost for electric to be better just based on BTU's.

Currently the average price in MA is $3.60 so you'd be making out for sure. This of course doesn't factor in the added rental fee for the tank which may be waived for being a new customer or the cost of a new tank or tankless water heater and installation cost however based on the annual cost you'd break even the first year and probably be saving at least $1000 a year after that.

Thanks for that. A buddy has propane heat (furnace) and the price you're paying sounds similar to what he was paying. He did say it came down this year compared to last year.

I haven't looked into it in a while, but I thought that renting a tank meant that you had to buy propane from that company, and that owning it/them would potentially save money in the long run. I'm not even sure of how many suppliers there are around me, so that might be a moot point.

A funny anecdote: my old condo had a gas hot water heater. Soon after we moved in we had a power outage. My wife and I took quick showers because we thought the heater would eventually cool down to the point where showers would be uncomfortably cold. Well, I was down in the basement later and heard the burner kick on and had a moment before realizing that this thing was old-school with a pilot light, so no power was needed. We still didn't have the furnace for obvious reasons.

 

[brianl703]

I haven't looked into it in a while, but I thought that renting a tank meant that you had to buy propane from that company, and that owning it/them would potentially save money in the long run.

That's true. I have a 100 gallon propane tank on my house. It's only for the gas cooktop and gas fireplace. I own that tank. It was filled once 6 years ago and I haven't paid a dime for it since. If I had been renting one, I would have had to pay some minimum fee even if it didn't need to be filled.

 

[alarmguy]

That's true. I have a 100 gallon propane tank on my house. It's only for the gas cooktop and gas fireplace. I own that tank. It was filled once 6 years ago and I haven't paid a dime for it since. If I had been renting one, I would have had to pay some minimum fee even if it didn't need to be filled.

In all my (long so far) life I never had LP but will have it when we close on our new home sometime before the end of March.
I am really leary if we would have been better off with an all electric home but we had no choice, seems like EVERY house in the area get LP.
and to the builder credit, it has to cost more then if they just went all electric.

So my question to you is, in six years, you never have had to refill your LP tank?
For our home it will be cooktop, and fireplace. I also THINK the tankless water heater but I am questioning that now too and here is why. After reading your post I went back and looked at photos taken during construction and it looks like the separate oven will be electric. I dont see any plumbing line there, and looks like a thick power line but the photo is a bit fuzzy when I zoom in.
We too will own the tank.

 

[thastinger]

Good advice. I have two watt-meters, one of which is dumb (instantaneous indication only) and a smart plug that will show instantaneous, as well as daily and weekly use in kWh.

The instantaneous readings for each of my dehumidifiers are:

1. Living room: 44/233W (Fan on low / compressor on)
- This one is used the least
2. Main Bedroom Bathroom: 20/201 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one is used often since it runs to dehumidify after showers and when it's humid, but not warm enough for AC
3. Basement: 51/236 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one runs for most of the year. It's currently off because RH in the basement is < 50% everywhere at the moment. It runs often in the summer

I think you're right that our usage is relatively low. This post was more to vent about the high cost of energy here, to provide some data that I find interesting and which may be helpful to someone, and to solicit advice. I don't claim to be an expert. I've made guesstimates on how to best use what I have, but I could be wrong. It warrant further investigation.

Why would you want to pull humidity out of your house during the Winter? More humid = feels hotter...to me anyway.

 

[gathermewool]

Wow I am in NH and use no more than 300 kWh/mo. House is kept to about 64 degrees F.
I know UNITIL reported and increase in the supply rate in Nov. 2022 from $0.07 to $0.26/kWh(!)
But since our bill has been under 75 bucks a month I haven't paid to much attention to it.
I have oil fired boiler hydronic heating and the #2 diesel price almost doubled. I use about 110 gallons per month so my heating oil cost is is now about $475 /mo.

So were are nearing $600/month adding in my electric costs to diesel oil usage.

The electric dryer is the biggest user, I have to get a clothsline installed in the back yard again. I can run it from a 2nd floor balcony to a big tree 25 feet away and have it on a pulley system


Remember, we just came of a near record warm month for January 2023.

I would shut off those dehumidifiers. They are typically each 5000btu window AC unit equivalents, 400-500watts each. What does the UL label say?

Stay warm enough! We expect to be 40 degrees F. below freezing (not windchill) up here with an Arctic dip for a couple days and high winds,

Good thing I have 5% fuel diluted 5W20 in my D.I. car - I knew that D.I would be good for something !
- Ken

That energy cost does suck. We also turn the heat on when it gets too cold, especially if there is a risk of freezing in the basement. Even if I'm fine with the colder indoor temps I try to keep my wife in mind. Even after I remind her that she controls the thermostat, too, she sometimes doesn't want to turn on the heat. If I sense she's cold I turn the heat up to 60.

Our average temperature for Jan was 39F.

I posted the draw of my dehumidifiers in another post, but I'll share them here again.

The instantaneous readings for each of my dehumidifiers are:

1. Living room: 44/233W (Fan on low / compressor on)
- This one is used the least
2. Main Bedroom Bathroom: 20/201 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one is used often since it runs to dehumidify after showers and when it's humid, but not warm enough for AC
3. Basement: 51/236 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one runs for most of the year. It's currently off because RH in the basement is < 50% everywhere at the moment. It runs often in the summer

So, not nearly as high as you might think. As I said, I like to keep it cold, but that doesn't mean I mind some heat added to the spaces (especially the BR) from the dehumidifiers. Not all of the energy consumed goes to heat, but it's a lot.

As you say, the electric dryer is a big consumer of energy. My wife runs the dryer on Medium, but I use Very Low. I'm trying the Eco Normal setting again now (Very Low heat) with the dryness sensor set to max to see if it'll actually dry the clothes. In this mode, it displays a time (1:38 on max dryness setting), but it hasn't run that long in the past because it senses the clothes are dry prematurely and shuts off the dryer before the clothes are fully dried. If this doesn't work I'll just run it on manual Very Low heat for however long I think it needs to be based on what's in there.

 

[gathermewool]

For those who care, this is the plug I’ve been using. It’s coincidentally on sale for $13 today. I bought three more. There are other options, but this and the all have been very reliable.

Kasa Smart Plug

Edit: the link function isn’t working. The below works.

Limited-time deal: Kasa Smart Plug Mini with Energy Monitoring, Smart Home Wi-Fi Outlet Works with Alexa, Google Home & IFTTT, Wi-Fi Simple Setup, No Hub Required (KP115), White – A Certified for Humans Device https://a.co/d/4P0H5x7

Mods, I apologize if I’m doing something wrong.

 

[PWMDMD]

Wow...we have a municipal electric company here in MA and as of January 1, 2023:
Monthly charges shall be:

Customer Charge: $5.00 per month
Res Distribution Charge: $0.0497 per kWh
Res Purchase Power Cost: $0.1434 per kWh
Total: $0.1931 per kWh

People constantly complain about the cost of electricity here...

 

[brianl703]

So my question to you is, in six years, you never have had to refill your LP tank?

No, but I rarely use the gas cooktop (I'm not much of a chef) and almost never use the gas fireplace (I've run it for a total of maybe half an hour in 6 years--I would probably run it in a prolonged power outage in winter but that has not happened yet).

If you know that your LP gas usage won't be enough that your tank needs to be filled once a year, you are probably better off owning one.

 

[brianl703]

So my question to you is, in six years, you never have had to refill your LP tank?
For our home it will be cooktop, and fireplace.

A typical gas stove burner is 10,000BTU.

A gallon of propane is 91,500BTU.

One gallon of propane will operate a 10,000BTU gas stove burner for 9.15 hours.

100 gallons of propane will operate that burner for 915 hours.

Assuming one hour of cooking with that one burner each day (or 30 minutes of cooking with 2 burners, or 15 minutes with 4 burners), 100 gallons would last almost 2.5 years.

You probably won't use your stove that much...

 

[TmanP]

That energy cost does suck. We also turn the heat on when it gets too cold, especially if there is a risk of freezing in the basement. Even if I'm fine with the colder indoor temps I try to keep my wife in mind. Even after I remind her that she controls the thermostat, too, she sometimes doesn't want to turn on the heat. If I sense she's cold I turn the heat up to 60.

Our average temperature for Jan was 39F.

I posted the draw of my dehumidifiers in another post, but I'll share them here again.

The instantaneous readings for each of my dehumidifiers are:

1. Living room: 44/233W (Fan on low / compressor on)
- This one is used the least
2. Main Bedroom Bathroom: 20/201 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one is used often since it runs to dehumidify after showers and when it's humid, but not warm enough for AC
3. Basement: 51/236 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one runs for most of the year. It's currently off because RH in the basement is < 50% everywhere at the moment. It runs often in the summer

So, not nearly as high as you might think. As I said, I like to keep it cold, but that doesn't mean I mind some heat added to the spaces (especially the BR) from the dehumidifiers. Not all of the energy consumed goes to heat, but it's a lot.

As you say, the electric dryer is a big consumer of energy. My wife runs the dryer on Medium, but I use Very Low. I'm trying the Eco Normal setting again now (Very Low heat) with the dryness sensor set to max to see if it'll actually dry the clothes. In this mode, it displays a time (1:38 on max dryness setting), but it hasn't run that long in the past because it senses the clothes are dry prematurely and shuts off the dryer before the clothes are fully dried. If this doesn't work I'll just run it on manual Very Low heat for however long I think it needs to be based on what's in there.

I wonder if the dryer setting makes much of a difference in terms of overall energy required to dry a load. That is, are you just using a lower rate of energy (say, half as much) for double the time? (It’s possible that higher heat would be more efficient, as it’d reduce the time spent tumbling clothes.) I’m not sure on this, just some food for thought.

 

[gathermewool]

I would put the smart meter on the 3 dehumidifiers and get those readings. Make sure to leave them on long enough to measure a few defrost cycles.

It sounds like you have squeezed all of the savings possible from your usage. Is it possible that the electric meter is faulty. I would complain to the utility and have them change out the meter and recalibrate the present meter. Maybe you are due a credit for overpaying. It’s not common but electric meters do go bad.

That's part of the plan. The dehumidifier in the main bedroom is required because of the busted and hard-to-access vent fan, with the added benefit of the waste heat added to the room. The one in the basement is constrained by its efficiency at lower temps. Below 40F it's going to potentially freeze the evaporator. Luckily, as the temps have dropped to just below 50 in the basement, the RH has also dropped (except on the rainy days we had a few days ago.) For the past maybe 24 hrs or so, the dampest part of the basement is 49F/49% RH, so the dehumidifier has been off.

The meter is less than a year old, but I can inquire.

 

[John Galt]

That energy cost does suck. We also turn the heat on when it gets too cold, especially if there is a risk of freezing in the basement. Even if I'm fine with the colder indoor temps I try to keep my wife in mind. Even after I remind her that she controls the thermostat, too, she sometimes doesn't want to turn on the heat. If I sense she's cold I turn the heat up to 60.

Our average temperature for Jan was 39F.

I posted the draw of my dehumidifiers in another post, but I'll share them here again.

The instantaneous readings for each of my dehumidifiers are:

1. Living room: 44/233W (Fan on low / compressor on)
- This one is used the least
2. Main Bedroom Bathroom: 20/201 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one is used often since it runs to dehumidify after showers and when it's humid, but not warm enough for AC
3. Basement: 51/236 (Fan on high / compressor on)
- This one runs for most of the year. It's currently off because RH in the basement is < 50% everywhere at the moment. It runs often in the summer

So, not nearly as high as you might think. As I said, I like to keep it cold, but that doesn't mean I mind some heat added to the spaces (especially the BR) from the dehumidifiers. Not all of the energy consumed goes to heat, but it's a lot.

As you say, the electric dryer is a big consumer of energy. My wife runs the dryer on Medium, but I use Very Low. I'm trying the Eco Normal setting again now (Very Low heat) with the dryness sensor set to max to see if it'll actually dry the clothes. In this mode, it displays a time (1:38 on max dryness setting), but it hasn't run that long in the past because it senses the clothes are dry prematurely and shuts off the dryer before the clothes are fully dried. If this doesn't work I'll just run it on manual Very Low heat for however long I think it needs to be based on what's in there.

I think some folks have confusion about the meaning of relative humidity. Let’s start with that. Relative humidity is a measure (expressed as a percentage) of the actual moisture content in the air compared to the maximum it could hold. When it reaches 100% we call that raining.

The capacity of air to hold water is highly, highly dependent on the air temperature. Higher summer temperature air can hold significantly more moisture then winter cold temperature air. Let’s say a given volume of air at 90F could hold 100 ounces of water but it actually is holding 50 ounces. That would get reported as a 50% relative humidity on the weather map. Now that same volume of air at winter 20F temperature could hold 10 ounces of water but is actually holding 5 ounces of water - same 50% relative humidity but note the difference of 45 ounces of water summer v winter.

Lets take this further and move that 20F 50% relative humidity air volume and bring it inside the house through cracks in windows or whatever and let’s heat it to say 70F. The ability of that 70F air volume to hold moisture is say 80 ounces of water if at 100% relative humidity. But this air only contains 5 ounces of water (see previous paragraph) so now the homeowner experiences a humidity of 5/80 or 6.25% humidity. That’s why people humidify indoor air in the winter. This is why operating DEhumidifiers in the winter is a waste of energy. Want the waste heat they generate? just plug in a heater and be done with it.

If you want to follow a number then track dew point and the temperature - dew point spread. Topic for another time….

For now here is an easy humidity measurement device for the winter months - put a glass of ice water on the counter. If the outside of the glass stays dry with say 30ish F water in the glass then you do not have a humidity problem.

 

[mattd]

I feel you on the prices..we’re at 0.29$ per
kWh here

 

[JRed]

so the heat has been off in the bedrooms at night for the past week or so, whereas we were keeping it between 60-62F, maybe higher if we were feeling cold. It wasn't uncommon for my wife to want closer to 68-70F when she was feeling particularly cold.

All electric heat: As some of you know, I've kept the heat off for most of the month (not low, off completely),

Kind of confusing.

If you were using the baseboard heaters, even set to 60F, that's where most of your power consumption came from. Maybe some of it was the hot water heater, but not that much.

 

[brianl703]

I wonder if the dryer setting makes much of a difference in terms of overall energy required to dry a load. That is, are you just using a lower rate of energy (say, half as much) for double the time? (It’s possible that higher heat would be more efficient, as it’d reduce the time spent tumbling clothes.) I’m not sure on this, just some food for thought.

It's probably BETTER to use a higher setting because the amount of inside air exhausted to the outside will be less. That inside air you paid to heat or cool depending on season....

 

[gathermewool]

I would inquire if a properly sized mini split could take care of the dehumidification using less electricity. Many split systems use inverters and have a dry mode which is what you are looking for.

In the Philippines the humidity is very high. In cooler days around 80 degrees I would run the system on dry mode. I had one of those Oregon Scientific weather thingamajigs and it would read in the upper 80’s to over 90 % humidity. After a couple of hours or so it would read 55-60%. It was cheaper than running on AC mode.

You bring up a good point. On warm (not hot), wet days the AC simply doesn't dehumidify and it gets extremely clammy in our room. That's with a small 6k BTU unit. On those days I'm forced to run the dehumidifier at the same time, which sounds counterintuitive, but it works well. It also doesn't happen often. On hot days, the AC is cooling almost constantly because the room is large and the unit is small, so humidity is never a concern.

Based on our use case I wasn't really considering half splits, but now I'm not so sure. I'll be researching SEER vs cost for install vs cost for use.

 

[PimTac]

You bring up a good point. On warm (not hot), wet days the AC simply doesn't dehumidify and it gets extremely clammy in our room. That's with a small 6k BTU unit. On those days I'm forced to run the dehumidifier at the same time, which sounds counterintuitive, but it works well. It also doesn't happen often. On hot days, the AC is cooling almost constantly because the room is large and the unit is small, so humidity is never a concern.

Based on our use case I wasn't really considering half splits, but now I'm not so sure. I'll be researching SEER vs cost for install vs cost for use.

That sounds like your AC unit is undersized for the room. For comparison we have a 1.5hp split in a large bedroom about 16x20 with 9 foot ceilings. I think the BTU is around 12,000.

 

[brianl703]

Based on our use case I wasn't really considering half splits, but now I'm not so sure. I'll be researching SEER vs cost for install vs cost for use.

In AC mode they can slow the indoor fan speed down for better dehumidification. So can my Trane air handler. I bought a humidistat for the purpose of connecting it to the Trane air handler so it could slow the fan down during periods of high indoor humidity, but it hasn't been a problem so I never hooked it up.

If you're using a window unit and you can control the fan speed, try running it at the lowest fan speed and see if that helps.

 

[gathermewool]

Kind of confusing.

If you were using the baseboard heaters, even set to 60F, that's where most of your power consumption came from. Maybe some of it was the hot water heater, but not that much.

I apologize for the confusion. I don't track daily use and temperature and don't remember a lot of the details. I just know what is typical. With that said, the heat has been off for the past week everywhere. Before then, my wife would sometimes turn the heat on in the bedroom(s) to 60-62F, but not all the time. On average, the heat in the whole house has been OFF for the vast majority of the time.

The parts I was also inconsistent/forgetful of that I might have posted erroneously earlier, I think, was that we do use a space heater for maybe 30 minutes, max, in the bathroom so it's warm for showers. Even if it was an hour/day, every day, that's something like $15/month. I also forgot that my in-laws stayed the night at the beginning of the month. I kept the living room at 68F during the day and they did whatever they wanted in the bedroom. I don't remember if I turned the heat off completely at night or just down to 60 or so. I also left the guest bathroom heat on for them, along with a space heater in case it wasn't warm enough; they used the space heater and I found the door open at night, so that was a waste.

The kids and I aren't uncomfortable with temps in the low 50s for the vast majority of the time, but even we feel cold sometimes. My wife has full control over the bedroom thermostat. She may turn it on during the day and I'm only seeing it off every time I'm in there, but the temp in the bedroom has almost always been in the mid-50s. Not precise.

Lastly, everything I'm posting is just background info to provide some context. The thread was mostly just me complaining about the high energy costs and pointing out that I probably use WAY less energy for heat than most people. Some of you pointed out some things that I need to address, consider or reconsider to save money elsewhere, because I can't do any more than I already am in the heating department. There are some definite improvements that will help, as well as some obvious culprits that you guys noticed, such as the hot water heater and how we use it, dehumidifiers, fridges, and freezer, etc. There are also probably plenty of items that I will not give up that add up, such as watching TV, smart devices, etc. I'm not looking to save money by lowering our standard of living or getting rid of the creature comforts. I didn't mean to be confusing or misleading and admit that if I was really concerned I should document stuff like this, especially for times when we have visitors. I did buy more smart plugs with energy monitoring to track these things