If OHC is so great then why.....

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I don’t see an OHV (2v) engine producing more torque than an OHC (4v) engine at the same displacement. IIRC … on the torque-rpm curves I’ve seen, an OHC (4v) design produces more torque across the board. Although, at lower rpms its advantage is less over a 2v design.

1.8 1987 VW spec’s from my owners manual … hp/torque …

1.8 - 2v… 102 at 5250/110@3250
1.8 - 4v … 123 at 5800/122@4250

I’d wager that the 4v design is still producing more torque at 3250 than the 2v design. 4v designs tend to have very flat torque curves and these spec’s are from the days where the 4v designs were tuned for hp higher up. The 4v designs of today are tuned for more lower end power and torque.

Dodge Caravan 3.3 OHV … … 180hp/210 @ 4000 (torque)
Toyota Sienna 3.3 OHC (4v)… 230hp/242 @ 3600

The Sienna engine has a higher compression ratio (10.8 vs 9.3) which accounts for some of the difference. But nevertheless, the 4valve designs produce better torque. The only way to compensate for that is to give the OHV design a larger displacement. This is typically what GM was doing, selling a ~ 200hp 3.8 OHV versus 200hp 3.0 OHC-4v designs from Japan. The 3.8 will likely have more torque than a 3.0 (4v) engine it competing against.

The downside to a 4v design versus a 2v design is that the 4v design gets worse gas mileage. But one would expect that, with more breathing you pump more gas through it and get more power. The 1.8 4v design for my 1987 Jetta had a significantly worse gas mileage rating than the 2v design. Tuning the 4valves with different parameters and Vtec designs are helping in that area. The 3.3l Sienna has a better gas mileage rating than the 3.3l Caravan, and has 50 more hp.

Pushrod engines are cheaper to make (generally), and a 2v large pushrod design can get fairly good gas mileage. The GM 3.8 is an example of a larger displacement V6 that gets very good mileage for its size. A 4v 3.8 design would produce more power -- but would be more thirsty. So how does one want to produce 200 hp, 3.8-2v or 3.0-4v -- they’re just different ways of getting 200hp. These 2v OHV larger displacement engines (like GM’s truck V8’s) are a relatively inexpensive way to produce a fair amount of power with decent torque in the low end.
 
quote:

Originally posted by windnsea00:
Well for example an LS2 getting 28mpg is capable of doing so because of its low torque curve and high gear ratios. It's chugging along at 2k or less rpms. Wind that up to 3k-4k rpms and it will in no way be able to keep up in fuel mileage to a DOHC engine.

This is the sort of gibberish that drives me bonkers in these discussions
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The whole freakin' point of the larger displacement, OHV engines is that they can be built economically and provide good performance and fuel economy by virtue of their strong low-end power. Thus, the car can be geared in such a manner to achieve good mileage. This is a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by windnsea00:
Also 6.0 liters for 400hp while commonly a European brand can do that with a 4 to 5 liter engine that is DOHC.

This is an oft-repeated nugget, but it's a nugget in search of relevancy. The implication here is that GM has to "resort" to big displacement because of the inherent inferiority of the basic engine architecture. But can't it be cast in a different way? Couldn't we say that those European brands have to resort to using all those extra valves, camshafts, variable timing, high compression, etc? Why exactly is their approach "better"?

jeff
 
greenjp;

Exactly...a pushrod engine doesn't NEED to spend much time at 3-4,000 RPM.

I think that if GM could have just gotten their d*** V6 gaskets right the first time, people wouldn't be downing them all the time.
 
I'll use this as an example because I own both.

2005 Ford Sport Trac 4.0 SOHC V6, 2 valves per cylinder. 210 HP, 242 FT Lbs 16 / 21 MPG

2006 Nissan Frontier 4.0 DOHC VVT V6 24 valve. 265 HP, 284 Ft Lbs. 16 / 20 MPG

Why not extract as much HP as possible from a given displacement? What's preventing the Ford from producing more HP? Breathing is one factor. Ford had to put a V8 in the next generation of Sport Trac to approach the power of the Nissan V6. That is antiquated American thinking - fix our lack of technology with cubic inches.
 
quote:

Originally posted by CBDFrontier06:
snip...

Why not extract as much HP as possible from a given displacement? snip.... That is antiquated American thinking - fix our lack of technology with cubic inches.


Why go to all the expense of the extra parts when cubic inches are cheap and easy? Then worse yet add a timing belt requiring expensive replacement several times over the life of the engine.

And oh yes, the timing belt driven water pump located at the TOP of the engine, sensitive to the coolent being least bit down.

As Gurkha pointed out, timing chains can last the life of the engine with care.
 
Why drop in a heavier V8 to do the work of a better V6? I don't even wanna know what the gas mileage on that would be.

All Nissan V6s have timing chains.
 
quote:

Originally posted by greenjp:

quote:

Originally posted by windnsea00:
... Just saying, "My LS2 6-spd gets 28mpg on the freeway" doesn't mean it is a more efficent motor in making power which I think a lot of people tend to confuse...

I really need some help here. What efficiency, other than fuel efficiency, is relevant?

jeff


Didn't you know greenjp; hp/liter and screaming a VTEC up to 9K rpm is the only thing that matters!
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Is somebody wanted to make a SOHC or DOHC that had the whole air flow designed for low RPM TQ (narrow ports, low overlap I-to-E, moderate lift), then that engine would produce great gobs of low end TQ. Possibly even more than the push rod engine (but not by much).

This has nothing to do with pushrods,...

This has to do with packaging and economics. With an CIB (cam in block) design the engine is physically smaller for a given displacement, so with a given engine bay size, one can put a bigger CIB engine in that bay than you can put a DOHC engine in that same bay. That bigger displacement engine will produce more TQ (unless it is really a poor design--which none are these days). With big TQ down low, and a very tall high gear, these things cruise down the road at 1500 RPMs at 60 MPH. Operating at very low RPMs and very low friction levels give great milage.

The CIB engine has fewer parts and fewer things that need to machined to exacting specifications. This gives the CIB engines a big cost advantage. Therefore, you can get more TQ down low at lower cost with a CIB engine.

Where CIB engine fall down is when you want to be able to rev them to high RPMs (high = greater than 7K) It become increasingly expensive to increase the RPM level of the CIB engine above 6K RPMs, and hideously expensive over 7K RPMs.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Spitty:
OHC designs tend to suit high rpm engines due to the fact that the simpler/lighter valve train can better follow a cam's profile at higher RPM's

ONLY when they are SOHC 2 valve per cylinder are they simpler/lighter. DOHC 4 v.p.c. (especially with VTEC/VVT) are quite complicated, heavier (yeilding a higher center of gravity), and the least compact of any configuration.
 
The valves don't care where the cam is as long as they are opened and closed on time. All OHC does is make the motor heavier and bigger.

I guess Ford has gotten tired if the claims on the death knock sound the MOD. motors make on cold start up. It takes time to get oil up to the cams on those giant big block sized 4.6's.

I think in the flathead will make a come back before to long. Great combustion chamber design for poor quality fuel, and no rocker arms, just like an OHC but upside down. (Most OHC motors have a tappet, push rod and rocker arm just like an OHV, only it's all stuffed in the head.) What would the new term be? UHC
 
quote:

Originally posted by CBDFrontier06:
Wikipedia is nothing but a publicly updated info site, so anybody was welcome to give their input on which engine is better while they're providing specs. I could go in and counterpoint it if I though it was worth my time.

Don't hate on Nissan because they, along with Toyota and Honda are taking market share away from GM hand over fist..


The GM figures didn't come from Wikipedia; I looked there for the Nissan figures, in desperation, because they were not published elsewhere. Even the fanboy that wrote the Wik article would do no better than to describe the VQ as "relatively" lightweight.

I didn't look for physical volume figures, but I suspect those numbers will favor the OHV V8.

I don't hate on Nissan at all. I rather like the Altima with the V6, and because of the glowing praise from EKPolk and others about the VQ, I think I will put Infiniti on my short list with Jaguar, Cadillac, and maybe Pontiac, when I mothball my Xj12.

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Different, yet equally functional, designs exist for almost anything. Both pushrod and OHC designs have advantages over the other for certain applications. Thinking that either is inherently better than another is pure ignorance.

For any modern engine at a steady speed, fuel economy is far more dependent on the transmission and tuning than the type of engine.
 
Think GM's motors have had more problems with knocking that the 4.6's and 5.4's. I know some of the early 5.4's had a tendancy to knock on a cold start but that was largely remedied by the 99 M.Y. Most of the problems now are caused by people using improper filters that keep the oil from draining back to the pan. The Mod motors used roller-finger followers to actuate the valves from the cams. As such, the valvetrain allows for radically aggressive cam profiles while still maintaining streetable manners and PCM compatibility. Few things sound sweeter than a cammed 4V 4.6 idling.
 
quote:

Originally posted by CBDFrontier06:
Why drop in a heavier V8 to do the work of a better V6?

Who wants a V6 when you can have a V8 that is smaller, lighter, and more powerful?

My GM LS1 V8 is all aluminum, or thermoplastic in the case of the intake manifold.
 
quote:

Originally posted by dailydriver:
QUOTE]ONLY when they are SOHC 2 valve per cylinder are they simpler/lighter. DOHC 4 v.p.c. (especially with VTEC/VVT) are quite complicated, heavier (yeilding a higher center of gravity), and the least compact of any configuration.

Exactly why my 6.0 litre Jaguar V12 is a 2 valve SOHC design. In the development process, which is very well documented, 4 valve DOHC heads were developed, and the extra power was not justified when compared to the extra weight, physical size, and higher center of gravity.

They just went with an open deck wet block that can support up to 9 litre displacement in competition. The classic solution of picking up power with cubic inches was the best choice - even for an OHC engine ....

Road going examples of that V12 are a good example of an OHC engine optimized for low end torque. Its shot by 7000 rpm, but has locomotive like torque across the entire powerband. It takes a GM 4L80E and Dana diff to handle the grunt.
 
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