Is CAFE the 'voice of reason??'
I am trying Castrol 5W50
- Thread starter JohnBrowning
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Sprint,
Could you find out for me what weight you guys use in the LS1s (Holden) there??
Thanks
EDIT:
[ February 13, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
Could you find out for me what weight you guys use in the LS1s (Holden) there??
Thanks
EDIT:
I don't pay attention to CAFE. Some of the experts here have advised some of us against thicker oils based on MPGs, HP, Flow in cold weather, etc....that's why!
[ February 13, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
It was posted in another thread a few days ago - the factory fill for the HSV LS1s is M1 10w30. I'm not sure what the "run of the mill" Gen 3s use, but I don't think the viscosity would be any different.
It surprised me as well, especially considering that M1 10w30 is a pretty thin 30w. I know that in this country, Lexus don't recommend a full synthetic 10w30 for the 1UZFE in the LS400 V8.
Hi,
for anybody interested in seeing how a 15w-50 synthetic performs in a high performance 32v V8 (320hp)my posts under "Porsche & ? etc" in the UOA section here tell a very good story
This synthetic Shell oil was in the car for 12 months and four samples were taken
The car is now on Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 and there was a noticable difference in the "feel" of the engine after the change
There is one UOA on the Delvac 1 posted here too
I have been monitoring the engine's temperature for about 12 months and there was no noticeable difference after the change. The IR temperature readings are being taken from "prime" points around the engine alnog with the prevailling ambient
Castrol's heavier oils are the best sellers in Australia. Castrol's "R" Synthetic 10w-60 is a seriously excellent lubricant and is held in high esteem here
Regards
for anybody interested in seeing how a 15w-50 synthetic performs in a high performance 32v V8 (320hp)my posts under "Porsche & ? etc" in the UOA section here tell a very good story
This synthetic Shell oil was in the car for 12 months and four samples were taken
The car is now on Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 and there was a noticable difference in the "feel" of the engine after the change
There is one UOA on the Delvac 1 posted here too
I have been monitoring the engine's temperature for about 12 months and there was no noticeable difference after the change. The IR temperature readings are being taken from "prime" points around the engine alnog with the prevailling ambient
Castrol's heavier oils are the best sellers in Australia. Castrol's "R" Synthetic 10w-60 is a seriously excellent lubricant and is held in high esteem here
Regards
Hi,
Last_Z - the engine "spins" more freely and it appears to have gained a little power throughout
Oil pressure is down slightly at idle and then up to 2000rpm. Oil consumption remanins the same in each case - zero to date ( 4000 miles )
This was the same "effect" noticed by two other owners of similar cars ( 1@32v, 1@16v ) who have changed to this oil from;
a) Penrite "Diesel" mineral 20w-60
b) unknown brand mineral 20w-50
Regards
Last_Z - the engine "spins" more freely and it appears to have gained a little power throughout
Oil pressure is down slightly at idle and then up to 2000rpm. Oil consumption remanins the same in each case - zero to date ( 4000 miles )
This was the same "effect" noticed by two other owners of similar cars ( 1@32v, 1@16v ) who have changed to this oil from;
a) Penrite "Diesel" mineral 20w-60
b) unknown brand mineral 20w-50
Regards
Hi,
Last_Z - both. Delvac 1 is certainly a more slippery oil due to it's chemical construction
And the other of course being the change from a mineral to a synthetic oil ( in the case of the other two engines )
This is also noticeable when changing a heavy diesel engine from a mineral or semi-synthetic 15w-40 to Delvac 1. It is remarked upon by "non technical" professional heavy truck drivers
Even in warmer climes likes ours certain engines do seem to respond differently to the higher viscosity oils. Some well, some not so well with valve clatter etc
Many people are spooked by a "slight" loss in oil pressure too with lighter oils but as many persons have pointed out here the better flow is the trade up
A summary of most Euro makers will show that for non CAFE markets the 0w-40 or 5w-40 oils are the most prolific in their collective recommendations
Here in Australia we have a staggering range of choice in engine lubricant brands, viscosities and ratings. But the 15w-50 or 20w-50 oils are the discounted volume sellers. Reason? - probably cost, lack of knowledge/interest, advertising and past practice
Regards
[ February 14, 2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
Last_Z - both. Delvac 1 is certainly a more slippery oil due to it's chemical construction
And the other of course being the change from a mineral to a synthetic oil ( in the case of the other two engines )
This is also noticeable when changing a heavy diesel engine from a mineral or semi-synthetic 15w-40 to Delvac 1. It is remarked upon by "non technical" professional heavy truck drivers
Even in warmer climes likes ours certain engines do seem to respond differently to the higher viscosity oils. Some well, some not so well with valve clatter etc
Many people are spooked by a "slight" loss in oil pressure too with lighter oils but as many persons have pointed out here the better flow is the trade up
A summary of most Euro makers will show that for non CAFE markets the 0w-40 or 5w-40 oils are the most prolific in their collective recommendations
Here in Australia we have a staggering range of choice in engine lubricant brands, viscosities and ratings. But the 15w-50 or 20w-50 oils are the discounted volume sellers. Reason? - probably cost, lack of knowledge/interest, advertising and past practice
Regards
[ February 14, 2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
Nothing scientific to offer here but I used Castrol 5w-50 in an M3 before I sold it last June and the car and the oil did quite well.
The car was driven to it's limits literally everytime it was driven. It was a weekend toy that was tracked very often in VERY hot and cold weather. It saw redline and hit the rev limiter more times than I would begin to guess. If anything, the car was driven to abuse if it is possible.
That said, the engine, with light mods, used exactly ZERO oil between 4-5K mile changes, had not a single engine problem in 30K miles but went through tires like crazy (duh). I now have a ZO6 with the factory recommended M1 in it and it is being driven the same way. So far, no problems and the Vette club I belong to uses same with no problems reported.
FWIW, BMW's owner's manual, in that car, REQUIRED 5W synthetic on the lower end of the vis. but specified no number on the high end. I aked more than one dealership about what to use on the high end and the answer was consistently, "BMW doesn't really care". Comments FWIW...free.
[ February 14, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Roadfrog ]
The car was driven to it's limits literally everytime it was driven. It was a weekend toy that was tracked very often in VERY hot and cold weather. It saw redline and hit the rev limiter more times than I would begin to guess. If anything, the car was driven to abuse if it is possible.
That said, the engine, with light mods, used exactly ZERO oil between 4-5K mile changes, had not a single engine problem in 30K miles but went through tires like crazy (duh). I now have a ZO6 with the factory recommended M1 in it and it is being driven the same way. So far, no problems and the Vette club I belong to uses same with no problems reported.
FWIW, BMW's owner's manual, in that car, REQUIRED 5W synthetic on the lower end of the vis. but specified no number on the high end. I aked more than one dealership about what to use on the high end and the answer was consistently, "BMW doesn't really care". Comments FWIW...free.
[ February 14, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Roadfrog ]
Let me guess...you used a Fram oil filter on the BMW and now on the Corvete? Sorry, I had to!
Look Frog, I know it sounds like I'm picking on you here, but when you make these statements (in both the posts you have replyed to), you provide no explanation backed in facts. Did you ever do analysis on these vehicles to see how they were doing? Just because a car doesn't consume, it doesn't mean the oil is doing a great job of protecting.
And while I'm not Vette expert, I do know that the best analysis numbers are not turned in by M1 on the Vette. Wait till Pat chimes in here...he'll set you straight with your Vette.
And BMW has to care about what viscosity on the top end...you can't run a 5w-20 and a 5w-50 in a high-power application (race/heavy throttle/high bulk oil temps/high shear conditions) and expect the same results. Once again, I'm not BMW expert, but with any vehicle pushed like you supposedly drive yours, I'd prefer something a little thinner the the 50-weight Castrol product for really high flow levels, in exchange for something with higher HT/HS numbers and higher levels of anti-wear additives, and something that is derived from a group IV or V basestock as it would be more chemically stable under high temperature/stress conditions.
Look Frog, I know it sounds like I'm picking on you here, but when you make these statements (in both the posts you have replyed to), you provide no explanation backed in facts. Did you ever do analysis on these vehicles to see how they were doing? Just because a car doesn't consume, it doesn't mean the oil is doing a great job of protecting.
And while I'm not Vette expert, I do know that the best analysis numbers are not turned in by M1 on the Vette. Wait till Pat chimes in here...he'll set you straight with your Vette.
And BMW has to care about what viscosity on the top end...you can't run a 5w-20 and a 5w-50 in a high-power application (race/heavy throttle/high bulk oil temps/high shear conditions) and expect the same results. Once again, I'm not BMW expert, but with any vehicle pushed like you supposedly drive yours, I'd prefer something a little thinner the the 50-weight Castrol product for really high flow levels, in exchange for something with higher HT/HS numbers and higher levels of anti-wear additives, and something that is derived from a group IV or V basestock as it would be more chemically stable under high temperature/stress conditions.
Patman
Staff member
It's true, M1 5w30 and 10w30 don't show the best results in the LT1 or LS1 engines that go in the Vette. These engines like an oil which is a thick 30wt to a low 40wt, so bearing wear is higher in these engines when using the thinner Mobil 1 30wts. It's not dangerously high, but it is noticeable that the slightly thicker oils do better in these engines.
It'll be interesting to see UOAs on the Mobil 1 0w30R though, and see if the added ZDDP helps overcome the thinner viscosity, and shows lower wear than with the regular M1.
I'd expect the Castrol 5w-50 to turn into an SAE 10w-40 within 5000-6000 miles. before it starts to thicken back up to a 10w-50 and then a 15w-50 if you run it long enough .... There is nothing particularly wrong with that, but it's not the most desirable viscometric trait for long drain use ....It behaves like most of the 0w-40 formulations I've seen in that respect.
There are very good reasons why almost all the SOTA long drain, "VW 503/506" type synthetics in Europe are either 0w-30 or 5w-30 grades. It is directly related to oxidative thickening over long drain intervals, and maintaining excellent cold flow properties and fuel efficiency even after 30,000 km ....
Tooslick
[ February 15, 2004, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
There are very good reasons why almost all the SOTA long drain, "VW 503/506" type synthetics in Europe are either 0w-30 or 5w-30 grades. It is directly related to oxidative thickening over long drain intervals, and maintaining excellent cold flow properties and fuel efficiency even after 30,000 km ....
Tooslick
[ February 15, 2004, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
This is how the highest quality, PAO/Ester based, 0w-40 will behave in a four cylinder, high performance engine:
After 5000-7000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-30 ...
Note: The low temp properties are most effected by evaporation of the volatile parts of the basestock and not by oxidation. Oxidation occurs later on ....
After 10,000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-40 ...
After 15,000 miles, it will turn into a 10w-40, or maybe even a 15w-40...
Between 15,000 and 20,000 miles, it will thicken right off the scale, due to total depletion of the antioxidant additives, and evaporation of the most volatile parts of the basestock.
Try this test in a Honda/Acura, V-Tec engine and see what happens. It won' t be pretty ...
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
After 5000-7000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-30 ...
Note: The low temp properties are most effected by evaporation of the volatile parts of the basestock and not by oxidation. Oxidation occurs later on ....
After 10,000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-40 ...
After 15,000 miles, it will turn into a 10w-40, or maybe even a 15w-40...
Between 15,000 and 20,000 miles, it will thicken right off the scale, due to total depletion of the antioxidant additives, and evaporation of the most volatile parts of the basestock.
Try this test in a Honda/Acura, V-Tec engine and see what happens. It won' t be pretty ...
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
LastZ you see my point dont you? We have all of these doom and gloom nasayers on one hand saying that anything thicker then water I mean 5W30 will blow your engine. When you ask them if they have ran a thicker oil like a 40Wt or 50Wt the answere is always no. THen you have some that claim a certain brand will cause sludge or will blow the engine. Again they never actualy test it to see if the claim is BS or not!
I am not at all trying to say that 15W50 or 5W40 or 20W70 is going to be the best oil for your application. I just think people need to open up their mind a bit more and try different things! Last I checked this was Bobistheoilguy.com not the 5W30and5W20onlysite.com ! Heck I am even willing to try a 0W30 wich I would never have been willing to do before finding this site!
The only problem I have had is that GC 0W30 still is not avaible in a three city area surronding me and M1R is also not available localy yet! If anyone was woundering wear all of the American made 0W30 Castrol has been ending up it is in my town! They keep replenshing stock with yellow label 0W30 with dust already on the bottles!
I am not at all trying to say that 15W50 or 5W40 or 20W70 is going to be the best oil for your application. I just think people need to open up their mind a bit more and try different things! Last I checked this was Bobistheoilguy.com not the 5W30and5W20onlysite.com ! Heck I am even willing to try a 0W30 wich I would never have been willing to do before finding this site!
The only problem I have had is that GC 0W30 still is not avaible in a three city area surronding me and M1R is also not available localy yet! If anyone was woundering wear all of the American made 0W30 Castrol has been ending up it is in my town! They keep replenshing stock with yellow label 0W30 with dust already on the bottles!
TooSlick, a couple of questions:quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
This is how the highest quality, PAO/Ester based, 0w-40 will behave in a four cylinder, high performance engine:
After 5000-7000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-30 ...
Note: The low temp properties are most effected by evaporation of the volatile parts of the basestock and not by oxidation. Oxidation occurs later on ....
After 10,000 miles, it will turn into a 5w-40 ...
After 15,000 miles, it will turn into a 10w-40, or maybe even a 15w-40...
Between 15,000 and 20,000 miles, it will thicken right off the scale, due to total depletion of the antioxidant additives, and evaporation of the most volatile parts of the basestock.
Try this test in a Honda/Acura, V-Tec engine and see what happens. It won' t be pretty ...
1. what happens to the "volatile" parts? If they burn off, does this mean there is automatically consumption and volume loss?
2. if a 0-30 is better than a 0-40 with respect to 'staying-in-grade' then why would any manuf. recommend a 0-40 over a 0-30?
3. can not the same statements hold true for any multiviscosity oil except maybe to a lesser degree/extent?
I'm not TS, but I thought I'd chime in here. The whole "one size fits all" tempt with the 0w-40 is a good idea, but it's just to large of a gap. Unless your using a higher quality base stock, like RL or D1, a $5qt 0w-40 isn't going to be a good choice. I still prefer oils like 10w-30's with no VI's.
M1 0w-40 is trying to give you the best of both worlds, cold temp performance, and high temp performance. IMO, they should have just made their 0w-30 A3 rated with a HT/HS of 3.5> but instead they used a 40wt oil to acheive a 3.6 HT/HS. More VI's the more left behind. Even the 15w-50 is a huge spread, but it uses a thicker more heavy base stock to achieve this. RL 5w-40 as Terry has stated, is one of the best oils $ can buy. Superior to M1 0w-40.
Last_Z HSV LS1's use M1 10W30 a poor choice IMO as its a thin 30W. Oil consumption and LS1's is a standing joke here but I have dealings with an owner and he wants me to rec a higher viscosity. Castrol Formula R 0W40, Delvac 1, or M1 0W40 come to mind or maybe best of all BP Visco 5000 5W40 a 'thinnish' 40W (13.95 cSt). He wont cop Redline pricing etc so sticking to mid range priced oils.
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