WOW Doc..I think I got it..the T&S 5-40 that I use in my 454 GMC with 4:10 gears seems to work pretty good..it usually runs at 3k RPM all day long pulling a 8k# trailer..
I Am Tired of Hearing Oil Must Have a HTHS of 2.9 or 3.5 or Whatever
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My turbodiesel truck has decent cooling capacity as it's essentially designed for towing, and as a consequence it may work too well in the winter. Dodge makes a 'front' which is placed in front of the radiator, although a lot of people seem to just use cardboard. Instead of duct taping cardboard on the front of your car though, maybe some sort of removable cover for your oil cooler or where ever allows more options than an oil that will be used at just lower load levels. That way you might be able to use your current 5W40, which seems to have some margin for spirited driving, and still 'putt around' town at 80 mph and below.
Dear Dr.
I would think that a European (Acea A3) rated 0,5w30 would come closest to what you are looking for. Most 5w40's are thicker than you want while an oil such as GC comes very close to the specifications you would be looking for.
Of course I know that you have gone much lower than that! I can see your logic for going that thin in your well informed application.
Your data reminds me, I need to install an oil temperature gauge on everything to see what is happening so I can be as well informed on my operating viscosity.
I would think that a European (Acea A3) rated 0,5w30 would come closest to what you are looking for. Most 5w40's are thicker than you want while an oil such as GC comes very close to the specifications you would be looking for.
Of course I know that you have gone much lower than that! I can see your logic for going that thin in your well informed application.
Your data reminds me, I need to install an oil temperature gauge on everything to see what is happening so I can be as well informed on my operating viscosity.
Unfortunately, this is the same issue with the kind of info AEHaas is asking for. If the research 'waits' until after the product has been finished and gone to market, it is after the fact and thus useful only as a tool to improve upon the succeeding formulations.
Practically speaking, AEHaas' request is roughly equivalent to asking for UOA data from one engine using different grades of the same brand, albeit gathered via a method less subject to debate as to its accuracy (isn't it common to say or hear that UOAs are not telling the whole truth about wear rates, etc.?).
Though I certainly share AEHaas' curiosity and desire for information, I do not think it likely at all that that information will be presented in a straightforward fashion; there are too many reasons for it to not be.
Doc,
Go to the local Good-Will Center and buy some second hand clothes. You'll need them when rummaging through all the AutoZones in a 40 mile radius of Sarasota looking for Green German Castrol (The Crystal Meth of BITOG junkies). It's the closest to your specs above.
Go to the local Good-Will Center and buy some second hand clothes. You'll need them when rummaging through all the AutoZones in a 40 mile radius of Sarasota looking for Green German Castrol (The Crystal Meth of BITOG junkies). It's the closest to your specs above.
Maybe someone can help me with my observations...
I see folks talking about the "viscosity" and film "thickness" and using those figures to tie the fluid to wear charactoristics.
However, I am confused about something...how can we use the thickness of an oil to determine anything about it's wear protecting ability?
Where is film "strength" placed into this mix of data?
And wouldn't the film "strength" be far more important than simply how "thick" the fluid is at any given temp?
IF I have an organic 50wt that fails at ~700psi (ASTM D 3233B), and a 20wt syn that fails at ~1300psi, or a 5wt syn that fails at ~3500psi, how can I glean that the "thicker" oils are better at protecting, especially when approaching the boundary?
I understand how the viscosity is related to start-ups, and think that all agree that in this situation the thinner the better. And also, with a thinner oil it appears to me that a greater volume of oil would be flowing, creating a better condition to carry off heat. Not to mention the increased heat created by the shearing of a heavier fluid.
Being a simple layman, I have to conclude that the HTHS thing is way overblown as a indicator of a fluids performance, and the actual barrier protection aspect of the fluid (be it from adds or base) is far more important.
I see folks talking about the "viscosity" and film "thickness" and using those figures to tie the fluid to wear charactoristics.
However, I am confused about something...how can we use the thickness of an oil to determine anything about it's wear protecting ability?
Where is film "strength" placed into this mix of data?
And wouldn't the film "strength" be far more important than simply how "thick" the fluid is at any given temp?
IF I have an organic 50wt that fails at ~700psi (ASTM D 3233B), and a 20wt syn that fails at ~1300psi, or a 5wt syn that fails at ~3500psi, how can I glean that the "thicker" oils are better at protecting, especially when approaching the boundary?
I understand how the viscosity is related to start-ups, and think that all agree that in this situation the thinner the better. And also, with a thinner oil it appears to me that a greater volume of oil would be flowing, creating a better condition to carry off heat. Not to mention the increased heat created by the shearing of a heavier fluid.
Being a simple layman, I have to conclude that the HTHS thing is way overblown as a indicator of a fluids performance, and the actual barrier protection aspect of the fluid (be it from adds or base) is far more important.
Current 5W-20 UOA = Real world, real oil, real data.
Conclusion: Current recommended 5W-20 oil(s) works for normal U.S. driving conditions. Any situation or data point that show increase engine wear is insignificant.
Benefits: Increase MPG; under some conditions, decrease engine wear.
Conclusion: Current recommended 5W-20 oil(s) works for normal U.S. driving conditions. Any situation or data point that show increase engine wear is insignificant.
Benefits: Increase MPG; under some conditions, decrease engine wear.
Aehass, Last I checked old research results are valid so long as new more current research does not disprove the old results. So unless you have current research that is in conflict with these older studies the results no matter how old must still be valid!
Now I understand the point you are trying to make but do not see how the age of the research matters much. If you use a fully formulated oil instead of a reference oil then you would not know if the results produced were the results of HTHS or additive package.
Most of the information we learn is school in math,physical science,anatomy,phisyology,physics,chemistry etc.... is based on research that is far older then 12 years!!! Frequently I see new research that confirms older studies. Seldom do I see new research that arives at drasticly different results then had been previously achieved.
Now I understand the point you are trying to make but do not see how the age of the research matters much. If you use a fully formulated oil instead of a reference oil then you would not know if the results produced were the results of HTHS or additive package.
Most of the information we learn is school in math,physical science,anatomy,phisyology,physics,chemistry etc.... is based on research that is far older then 12 years!!! Frequently I see new research that confirms older studies. Seldom do I see new research that arives at drasticly different results then had been previously achieved.
I mean no offense JAG, but I believe that is a really dumb idea for someone in Florida. 180° F is comfortably in a safe operating range. I'm confident many people would be quite surprised to find out that many of their own vehicles normally operate in this range of oil temperatures unless they're running it at the track or towing up a mountain.
I agree that 180F is not too bad but it's still not ideal and given that the temps on other occasions got to only 160F which is certainly less than ideal, I think that increasing the temps is a good idea. Yes many engines do operate at quite low oil temps for much of their use and that's not a good thing.
Good point, Jaybird. Too little discussion on elastohydrodynamic lubrication and boundary film-strength properties.
Old oil test data is good for what it was.
However, take a 10W-30 dino Pennzoil that was made in 1974 (when I graduated high school) and it will be SE API rated. Compare to a 10W-30 dino Pennzoil of today rated SM. First, the newer oil will be thinner at start up. Second, if tested in the same API test engine (of today) there will be differences. There will be stuck rings, more deposits, higher volatility, a rapid, severe decrease in viscosity followed by a rapid increase. There will be more sludge, a lot more wear in every part and more corrosive damage from the SE rated oil.
Why? There is a difference in the way base oils are produced, the additives are vastly different. They all count and make the oil perform the way it does. I would never put an API SE oil in any of my modern engines, not for a minute. I hope that nobody else would.
Motor oil performance is not just the performance of the base oil but a complex interaction of many many things that give the oil its final properties. I look at the total picture of the oil, not just one aspect of a hundred. I choose based on all the data I see. I read, compare, theorize, speak to chemists, manufacturers and others then make an educated guess as to what serves my needs the best. Then I test the theory in as many ways as practical. Then I test again with something else.
In the end it never ends. I was never a big fan of Red Line motor oils thought I used the gear oils. Now I am using the 5W-20 Red line in two of my cars.
Tomorrow...?
aehaas
PS. I talked to the tech man at Ferrari North America this AM and he agrees fully with my 5W-40 Shell selection instead of using the 60 wt. stuff.
However, take a 10W-30 dino Pennzoil that was made in 1974 (when I graduated high school) and it will be SE API rated. Compare to a 10W-30 dino Pennzoil of today rated SM. First, the newer oil will be thinner at start up. Second, if tested in the same API test engine (of today) there will be differences. There will be stuck rings, more deposits, higher volatility, a rapid, severe decrease in viscosity followed by a rapid increase. There will be more sludge, a lot more wear in every part and more corrosive damage from the SE rated oil.
Why? There is a difference in the way base oils are produced, the additives are vastly different. They all count and make the oil perform the way it does. I would never put an API SE oil in any of my modern engines, not for a minute. I hope that nobody else would.
Motor oil performance is not just the performance of the base oil but a complex interaction of many many things that give the oil its final properties. I look at the total picture of the oil, not just one aspect of a hundred. I choose based on all the data I see. I read, compare, theorize, speak to chemists, manufacturers and others then make an educated guess as to what serves my needs the best. Then I test the theory in as many ways as practical. Then I test again with something else.
In the end it never ends. I was never a big fan of Red Line motor oils thought I used the gear oils. Now I am using the 5W-20 Red line in two of my cars.
Tomorrow...?
aehaas
PS. I talked to the tech man at Ferrari North America this AM and he agrees fully with my 5W-40 Shell selection instead of using the 60 wt. stuff.
Most oil cooler thermostats open at 180° F, so I don't believe blocking the oil cooler is going to help significantly below this point.
Indeed so if his oil cooler t-stat does open at 180F or so. I don't know when his opens but maybe someone does. Blocking the radiator may be the only option. But really this is all just something for the Dr. to consider, not to be taken as Ferrari Enzo specific expert advice. If I owned an Enzo, I sure wouldn't drive around with a piece of cardboard covering part of the front end. It deserves more respect than that so if anything is used, it should look legit.
Agree JAG. IIRC, the recommended minimum sustained operating oil temperature is generally considered 165° F. Maybe what he needs is one of those stick-on oil pan heaters for his short trips. Sure would look a lot classier than a piece of cardboard stuck behind the grill.
I have one of those stick on pan heaters for my VW 1.8T engine. It's 250 watt and works quite well for me. It puts out some serious heat and if there's lots of oil there to pick it up like I'd expect an Enzo to have (12 qts IIRC), that is one large reservoir of thermal energy to be had. One has to be careful not to have it on too long because eventually the heat loss will equal the heat gain so energy is being wasted and the oil is cooking/oxidizing. That time depends on outside temp and amount of oil next to the pad. I've never had it on for more than 2 hours on my engine and noticed only slight improvement over using it just 1 hour when car was parked outside in 30F degree temps.
Long ago I can also remember adding a large oil cooler on a VW bug, with an full flow filter too. It made a HUGE difference in oil cleanliness. Anyway, the oil cooler also had a thermostat on it so that it would bypass until it hit the desired temp.
If the car is running with oil at 160 to 180 deg F with typical driving, at what temp would you rather it ran at ? Is the coolant also at a lower than optimum temp ? If so trying to modify the air flow to the radiator might also work, especially if you could control it from within the car. Does anyone make a thermostat that you can control ?
If the car is running with oil at 160 to 180 deg F with typical driving, at what temp would you rather it ran at ? Is the coolant also at a lower than optimum temp ? If so trying to modify the air flow to the radiator might also work, especially if you could control it from within the car. Does anyone make a thermostat that you can control ?
Aehass, I agree with with your example above with the SE oil. My point is that if you take a PAO refrence oil almost devoid of additives with an hths of 2.6 and compare it to a like formulated dino oil even group I of like hths the results on rod bearing wear should be close to the same.
The two things that drasticaly effect wear on reciprocateing parts at operateing temp. are hths and additive package. I do not think the base stock makes much difference in terms of direct affect on rate of wear in the short term. Base stock does make a difference at the limit of thermal stability and in long term deposit control.It can depending on the base stock make a difference in hths/viscosity ratio.
Obiviously we do not need to have an oil with an HTHS of 4.9 in the sump all of the time. I think that 98% of the time an HTHS of 3.3-4.0 with a decent additive package and base stoock will work in 98% of application in N. America. FOr crying out loud you can buy Redline 5W20 and get an HTHS of 3.3 so why all the fuss!You would get plenty of moly with the Redline.
The two things that drasticaly effect wear on reciprocateing parts at operateing temp. are hths and additive package. I do not think the base stock makes much difference in terms of direct affect on rate of wear in the short term. Base stock does make a difference at the limit of thermal stability and in long term deposit control.It can depending on the base stock make a difference in hths/viscosity ratio.
Obiviously we do not need to have an oil with an HTHS of 4.9 in the sump all of the time. I think that 98% of the time an HTHS of 3.3-4.0 with a decent additive package and base stoock will work in 98% of application in N. America. FOr crying out loud you can buy Redline 5W20 and get an HTHS of 3.3 so why all the fuss!You would get plenty of moly with the Redline.
Dr., I'd also try German Castrol in that engine given everything you said. I suspect the oil temps are so low because it's a very high performance engine that is operating at such a tiny fraction of it's full power while driving down the highway. As someone else said, I'd also look into blocking off part of the radiator and/or oil cooler to see if you can get the oil closer to 210 degrees (or whatever you prefer).
BTW, I can't imagine how exhilarating driving a Ferrari Enzon is! I've ridden in an SVT Saleen Mustang with 500 hp, but I bet the Enzo would blow past even that.
BTW, I can't imagine how exhilarating driving a Ferrari Enzon is! I've ridden in an SVT Saleen Mustang with 500 hp, but I bet the Enzo would blow past even that.
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