Where Did the Notion Come From that Oils with HTHS Below 3.5 Were Unacceptable for Wear Control?

[PimTac]

Time fixes all. Instead of looking for oil to fix hardware issues maybe some here should concentrate their minds on choosing reliable engines.

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And that depends on what the meaning of reliable is. Most consumers go with brand reputation. They have no idea what engine is in the vehicle.

Auto manufacturers are changing their engines all the time. Some wait a couple years to see if a new engine is reliable but during that time changes are made along with changes in the vehicle.

 

[edyvw]

I was surprised to learn that most supercars regardless of brand never make it to 100k miles. The Quality and QA testing just isn't there, with so many parts made of cheap plastic and even the car bodies getting severed in half in minor car accidents. And fixing even the simplest things like replacing most parts requires dealer sold OEM parts, which instead of costing a few hundred dollars cost 7,000 dollars. So if I could ever afford to buy a super car, it would be an Acura NSX, so that at least you would get Honda's reliablility instead of some Italian supercar maker's reliability.
If you google: What is the cost of an oil change for a Bugatti Veyron, the answer is $21,000 for the oil change.
Even if I were a billionaire, I think I'd let my local mechanic do it for $50.

It's also interesting to note that in the latest Consumer Reports Magazine, Mercedes Benz is dead last of all car model brands in reliability.
So with Mercedes, you pay astronical prices for low quality, little to no quality assurance testing, with astronomical parts prices.
I suspect this is intentional, as Mercedes can lessen their cost in making a new car (both parts, research, and Quality assurance) to the lowest cost to Mercedes it could possibly be to build it, and then to sell the car to consumers at astronomical prices based on some misplaced and outdated reputation of quality, and then to allow dealers to astronomically price gouge on the parts and the servicing. So maximum profit for Mercedes and their dealers, and minimum quality to the consumer. That is really a shame, as Mercedes could have taken the high road and actually produced cars that can go to 400k miles like they used to in the 1980's and 1990's.

Consumer reports says Toyota/Lexus remain the top 2 most reliable car brands for many years running.
But to me, Toyota's bland styling and handling are blockers, so I prefer Honda's myself as they are fun to drive and have nimble handling.

How else is super car made? From parts in Toyota Corolla? Or Honda Pilot?
Everything in Super Car is unique. It costs money! Everything is dedicated to performance, therefore every part is first and foremost light!
And people don’t drive super cars on daily basis, so they get old before they rack up mileage.

 

[Malo83]

Time to rethink extended oil changes and multiple OCI's on one filter, with all these expert opinions i'll stick to 5K and filter.

 

[Bill_W]

And that depends on what the meaning of reliable is. Most consumers go with brand reputation. They have no idea what engine is in the vehicle.

Auto manufacturers are changing their engines all the time. Some wait a couple years to see if a new engine is reliable but during that time changes are made along with changes in the vehicle.

When VW had issues with GDI they blamed the oil. Ford had issues with spray bore cylinders, Exc… It is how fast the car company reacts to issues. The car company that fixes the issues quicker will be the ones that will come on top. First year engines are a learning curve. Some companies hide the issues, some owe up and fix issues. And then when some car manufacturers find the right combination then they get the reputation as reliable.

I waited for the ND-2 Miata for example… The flywheel had to be redesigned (weight shift) and that affected the reliability of the manual transmission. 26 more HP with other improvements and the reliablity improved. Had to wait 2 years. But my eye was on reliability of the engine and drivetrain.

 

[Bill7]

How else is super car made? From parts in Toyota Corolla? Or Honda Pilot?
Everything in Super Car is unique. It costs money! Everything is dedicated to performance, therefore every part is first and foremost light!
And people don’t drive super cars on daily basis, so they get old before they rack up mileage.

Well, if you were going to spend 200,000 on a supercar, you have a right to expect it's reliability to at least be as good as a car costing 1/10th the price. Therein lies the problem, some European supercar makers think it's ok to design a totally unreliable car and sell it for 200k, as long as it has a high horse power engine with the car having a high maximum speed. It's not ok. Where is the Quality assurance testing? You're paying 200k, you should be getting the highest amount of Quality Assurance testing in the world for that price.
I read an article about when Toyota and BMW partnered to create the new Supra, a Toyota engineer sent an engine part design back to Toyota for re-design over 100 times due to simulated high failure rate during QA. Why don't European automakers do that automatically?

Lets say you were a high paid managing director in a large multi-national company. You have a lot of money, but you are not the CEO who can afford to be shoffered around in a Rolls Royce. You commute to work from a rich suberb. Why not drive your Lamborghini or Ferrari as a daily driver during your long commute to the city? The lack of reliability of the supercar prevents that.

 

[edyvw]

Well, if you were going to spend 200,000 on a supercar, you have a right to expect it's reliability to at least be as good as a car costing 1/10th the price. Therein lies the problem, some European supercar makers think it's ok to design a totally unreliable car and sell it for 200k, as long as it has a high horse power engine with the car having a high maximum speed. It's not ok. Where is the Quality assurance testing? You're paying 200k, you should be getting the highest amount of Quality Assurance testing in the world for that price.
I read an article about when Toyota and BMW partnered to create the new Supra, a Toyota engineer sent an engine part design back to Toyota for re-design over a 100 times due to simulated high failure rate during QA. Why don't European automakers do that automatically?

You really don’t understand what are Super cars.
1. No you don’t have a right. Get real. No one cares what right you think you have. You bought product, live with it.
2. Super cars are about performance not reliability.
3. You seriously don’t understand what constitutes performance. It is not all about hp and max speed. If it was that easy every manufacturer would have a “super” car.

 

[Bill7]

You really don’t understand what are Super cars.
1. No you don’t have a right. Get real. No one cares what right you think you have. You bought product, live with it.
2. Super cars are about performance not reliability.
3. You seriously don’t understand what constitutes performance. It is not all about hp and max speed. If it was that easy every manufacturer would have a “super” car.

The right I have would be to choose to avoid the unreliable supercars, and to buy the Acura NSX, that has the high max speed, high horsepower, and incredible track handling, but also has the "high reliability" and expectation of lasting at least 200k miles. If enough people buy the Acura NSX, and survey's find out that this is the reason the unreliable supercar's sales are dropping, it would force the European supercar makers to spend more on quality engineering designs and Quality assurance testing. But I realize this will never happen.

You mentioned if it was easy, every company would have a supercar.
Well, Honda has a super car (Acura NSX). Honda is the company from the early 1970's whose first car had a 0.6 liter engine with a 2 speed automatic transmission. If Honda can create a supercar, any manufacturer can do it.

To change the subject a little bit, I am very impressed with the history and quality of Rolls Royce cars across all the many decades.
They seem to be high quality and reliable, and parts are readily available even for the ones from the 1970's and 1980's.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm not sure oil analysis from companies like Blackstone is really that accurate.
Even though it's cost prohibitive, would be interesting to have an ASE certified mechanic open up an engine and check the wear on the piston rings, crankshaft, camshaft(s) and bearings.

Someone who I trust on youtube is "The CarCareNut" channel, which is a Toyota Master Diagnostic certified mechanic who worked in Toyota dealerships in Chicago for over 10 years and is 100% loyal to Toyota. He is oil viscosity agnostic. He recently had a video where he bought a 2022 Toyota Camry for personal use speced for 0W-16 and he is using 0W-16. He also uses the low efficiency Toyota oil filters. He says he's rebuilt over 100 Toyota engines over the years due to excessive oil consumption. To him, the root cause of all the oil consumption issues Toyota has had over the last decade is the 10k mile oil change interval.

His strong conviction advise is to change oil every 5k miles or 6 months whichever comes first.
That is a point many BITOG posters seem to ignore, as Blackstone labs seems to write in all their analysis paragraphs that oil is fine at 10k and next oil change you should stretch to 12k oil change intervals. So I honestly don't put much importance on oil analysis reports.

I agree with his root cause for oil consumption and the 10k or higher OCI. Oil filters don't trap all particulate matter capable of causing wear and damage over time. I think of those particles that weren't trapped circulating in the engine as ultra fine sandpaper, in the lets say 2,000-3,000 grit range for argument sake The type that a good automotive detailer/painter can use for paint correction. While it can achieve great results in the right hands, keep going over the same spot and in time you can wear through the paint, primer and expose metal. How does that relate to the 10K OCI? The only way to get out that small wear causing junk that gets past the filter is to change the oil. JMO

 

[edyvw]

The right I have would be to choose to avoid the unreliable supercars, and to buy the Acura NSX, that has the high max speed, high horsepower, and incredible track handling, but also has the "high reliability" and expectation of lasting at least 200k miles. If enough people buy the Acura NSX, and survey's find out that this is the reason the unreliable supercar's sales are dropping, it would force the European supercar makers to spend more on quality engineering designs and Quality assurance testing. But I realize this will never happen.

You mentioned if it was easy, every company would have a supercar.
Well, Honda has a super car (Acura NSX). Honda is the company from the early 1970's whose first car had a 0.6 liter engine with a 2 speed automatic transmission. If Honda can create a supercar, any manufacturer can do it.

To change the subject a little bit, I am very impressed with the history and quality of Rolls Royce cars across all the many decades.
They seem to be high quality and reliable, and parts are readily available even for the ones from the 1970's and 1980's.

How do you know Acura is reliable? Last time I checked Acura had slew of issues, from failed piston rings due to VCM, troubled transmissions etc. Is it bcs. it is Japanese vehicle so you assume? Porsche is going to be much more reliable, for your info, and better performing.

You have a right to choose, you don’t have a right to set expectations. You are confused about what rights you actually have.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was surprised to learn that most supercars regardless of brand never make it to 100k miles. The Quality and QA testing just isn't there, with so many parts made of cheap plastic and even the car bodies getting severed in half in minor car accidents. And fixing even the simplest things like replacing most parts requires dealer sold OEM parts, which instead of costing a few hundred dollars cost 7,000 dollars. You would think if you're going to spend $200,000 on an Italian super car, you should get a high quality car that will last longer than a cheap Japanese economy car costing 1/10 the price. But the opposite is true. So if I could ever afford to buy a super car, it would be an Acura NSX, so that at least you would get Honda's reliablility instead of some Italian supercar maker's reliability. If you google: What is the cost of an oil change for a Bugatti Veyron, the answer is $21,000 for the oil change. For the price of that oil change, you could buy a new Honda Civic or Toyota Corllla and get the whole car. Even if I were a billionaire, I think I'd pay my local mechanic $30 for his labor and give him 5 quart jug(s) of synthetic oil and Fram Ultra oil filter bought at Walmart.

It's also interesting to note that in the latest Consumer Reports Magazine, Mercedes Benz is dead last of all car model brands in reliability.
So with Mercedes, you pay astronical prices for low quality, little to no quality assurance testing, with astronomical parts prices.
I suspect this is intentional, as Mercedes can lessen their cost in making a new car (both parts, research, and Quality assurance) to the lowest cost to Mercedes it could possibly be to build it, and then to sell the car to consumers at astronomical prices based on some misplaced and outdated reputation of quality, and then to allow dealers to astronomically price gouge on the parts and the servicing. So maximum profit for Mercedes and their dealers, and minimum quality to the consumer. That is really a shame, as Mercedes could have taken the high road and actually produced cars that can go to 400k miles like they used to in the 1980's and 1990's.

Consumer reports says Toyota/Lexus remain the top 2 most reliable car brands for many years running.
But to me, Toyota's bland styling and handling are blockers, so I prefer Honda's myself as they are fun to drive and have nimble handling.

I think you'll find that Mercedes (and BMW) part prices aren't all that high, at least that was my experience with my E39 M5. Some of the M-car specific stuff was more dear (brakes for example) but it wasn't outrageous. The biggest PO for me, and what prompted me to trade in the vehicle (which was a mistake) was the required replacement of the driveshaft assembly because it didn't have U-joints, rather, it had integrated CV joints and the whole thing was supposed to be replaced as a unit.

On the Supercar topic, personally, I'd take a Ford GT over the NSX.

 

[edyvw]

I think you'll find that Mercedes (and BMW) part prices aren't all that high, at least that was my experience with my E39 M5. Some of the M-car specific stuff was more dear (brakes for example) but it wasn't outrageous. The biggest PO for me, and what prompted me to trade in the vehicle (which was a mistake) was the required replacement of the driveshaft assembly because it didn't have U-joints, rather, it had integrated CV joints and the whole thing was supposed to be replaced as a unit.

On the Supercar topic, personally, I'd take a Ford GT over the NSX.

I paid less for numerous comparable parts for my BMW and VW than for my Toyota Sienna, and those parts actually last longer.

 

[PimTac]

I waited for the ND-2 Miata for example… The flywheel had to be redesigned (weight shift) and that affected the reliability of the manual transmission. 26 more HP with other improvements and the reliablity improved. Had to wait 2 years. But my eye was on reliability of the engine and drivetrain.

I believe that is the SkyActiv 2.0 motor. That’s a nice one.

The 2.5 in mine has undergone a number of changes in the past several years. When I got my ‘17 CX5 the motor had a newly redesigned crank, new ring pack design, redesigned piston crown, and some others. I would not be surprised if your engine had similar updates done as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, if you were going to spend 200,000 on a supercar, you have a right to expect it's reliability to at least be as good as a car costing 1/10th the price. Therein lies the problem, some European supercar makers think it's ok to design a totally unreliable car and sell it for 200k, as long as it has a high horse power engine with the car having a high maximum speed. It's not ok.

I get the impression you don't have much experience with high dollar niche products. The best parallel I can draw would be high end audio gear. You can spend obscene amounts of money on equipment that, when it's work, is exquisite, but the cost of keeping it work is outrageous. High-end tube amps and pre-amps, the tubes are insanely expensive, and they fail. These things cost more to maintain than a whole stereo from Walmart, but they provide a level of performance the Walmart commodity stuff can't touch.

This is the same for Super Cars.

If you can afford them, the cost to maintain them isn't a big deal.

When you are in an income bracket where you have somebody like @Cujet on staff to look after your jets, which cost millions of dollars (or 10's of millions of dollars) to buy and have mandatory hours-driven parts replacements and maintenance schedules, putting brakes on your McLaren isn't given a 2nd thought. This is the target audience, these cars aren't being geared towards a hypothetical person that's cross-shopping it with a Camry.

 

[nthach]

Not to mention a supercar is meant to be driven on a track (like the Ferrari Challenge Corse Clienti or the Porsche Cup series) or for show for others to ogle, admire and dream. Else, it’s parked in an indoor collection. If you can afford a supercar, it’s assumed you can afford the maintenance. It’s not to driven as a daily driver - though you could with a NSX or LFA.

Now, IME I’ve gotten almost 300K out of a Toyota 1UZ-FE V8 in a Lexus LS400. All on ILSAC/API Sx oils with “low” HTHS/“high” NOACK. Having a timing belt helps(less shear), despite being fairly power dense being a 250hp engine displacing 244ci/3969cc. It burned very little oil. I’m approaching 180K on another Toyota engine - little oil consumption, again all “mass-market” oils were used. I think the current trend of downsizing and now the European OEs choosing to comply with CAFE/EPA standards than paying the penalties has affected engine design and how lubricants are designed. That said, I won’t hesitate to run a “thin” oil in a well-designed engine within appropriate use parameters but I’ll take the Japanese OE wording of thick oil in certain conditions to heart(severe use, long trips/towing) or if it’s a problem child with a known history(some Subaru and others).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Who claimed that oils with below 3.5 HTHS viscosiy were unexceptabe for wear control?

It's been pointed out many times, just as this study does, is that when HTHS viscosiy gets down to the 2.5 - 2.6 cP area (and certainly below that) is when wear can start increasing at a higher rate in some engine components. It's been discussed in many threads, and shown in various studies. Seems like this is a trolling thread?

As said many times, viscosiy (the film thickness) is the main thing that prevents wear between moving parts, and the AF/AW package (the film strength) then helps mitigage wear when the film thickness (MOFT) goes to zero. Tribology doesn't change.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Away with 30 and 40 and 50 and 60 grade oils. Use oils based only on HTHS. One of my favorite oils is Renewable Lubricants Inc. where their 20 grade oil has a HTHS of >2.9 accoring to their own specs. And we know it will perform well in a Ferrari Enzo that specs a 60 grade oil, in non track use.

You now seem to be striving for as much HTHS as you can, but still want to claim you use a 20. Most API 30 oils have a HTHS of 3.0 to 3.3. Why not use a good 30? Or won't that fit the montra of "I'm running a 20 in a car that calls for 60, and it hasn't blown-up yet".

 

[ZeeOSix]

Australia is recommending 0W-20 and 0W -16 now. The times are changing.

In which vehicles? I didn't know countries "recommend" oil viscosity - car makers do. Is Oz going super CAFE now, lol.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Perhaps the real question is why did euro automakers hold on to 3.5 for decades? You'd think the likes of Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes would have revisites this requirement.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I do not want any wear either. I have shown that 20 and 30 grade oils in a Ferrari Enzo results in essentially no wear (no track use though). The spec'ed oil is a 10W60. The testing was with engine analysis and oil analysis.

Ali

How did you show there was "essentially no wear". If it was by your UOAs, it's been discussed before that it's not a good metric. Need more sophisticated and controlled tests, like irradiated engine parts so real time wear rates can be measured while the engine is running. Some wear studies have been done using that technique.

 

[CarbonSteel]

How did you show there was "essentially no wear". If it was by your UOAs, it's been discussed before that it's not a good metric. Need more sophisticated and controlled tests, like irradiated engine parts so real time wear rates can be measured while the engine is running. Some wear studies have been done using that technique.

Unless it was torn down and checked against the specifications of new parts, seems like guess work at best...