I-35 Bridge Collapse

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I don't think that throwing money at infrastructure is going to yield much. Case in point Central Artery project in Boston.

I have a feeling a retrofit or repair happened along the way and a connection point was not really looked at hard enough by the engineers.

My concentration of study was essentially bridge and structural design in college. I practiced professionally for a week and moved on when a better offer came along in IT.
 
"Well, I have an idea. Why don't we lease all our bridges to foreign companies, just like we are about to do with some of our highways and freeways? Let them deal with tolls, maintenance and rebuilding."
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After that, we can nationalize them a la Hugo Chavez!
 
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If the Fed Govt. repaired/replaced every bridge and overpass in the USA, there would be a tremendous outcry, due to the unthinkable massive spending. It is un-doable.



"Don't fix it if it ain't broke" is a "neat" concept. It's also a very popular concept. Not one I agree with mind, you. I'm a preventive maintenance fanatic.

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It is un-doable.



By American'ts? There are plenty of those, but there are also those who "can." Waiting for failure and then to start fixing things is just plain stupid.

People randomly succumbing due to unsafe roads, under and overpasses, bridges etc, is of course doable. If nothing is done, this type "accident" will become an increasingly frequent occurrence.

Has anybody kept tabs on what's been going on with the replacement for the old Oakland Bay Bridge, which partially collapsed in the '89 quake? Fights over inflated cost and ugly or poor design, and contractors who have used unsound materials (recycled concrete where it shouldn't be used) make me wonder how well-built this masterpiece will be once it's done. They've been building for years by now. Falling off the current or the new Bay Bridge is quite a fall -- not to mention the Bay waters are deep and cold, with strong currents.
 
I'm not sure if CA has done that yet. Some states have leased infrastructure to OZ and Spanish firms. I don't really know anymore what's US-owned here.
 
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If the Fed Govt. repaired/replaced every bridge and overpass in the USA, there would be a tremendous outcry, due to the unthinkable massive spending. It is un-doable.



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"Don't fix it if it ain't broke" is a "neat" concept. It's also a very popular concept. Not one I agree with mind, you. I'm a preventive maintenance fanatic.




Me too. I know the ability to "earmark" money is challenging in our political environment ..but if a bridge has a 25 year lifespan ..you had better be planning on raising money for 25 years to replace it.

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It is un-doable.



By American'ts? There are plenty of those, but there are also those who "can." Waiting for failure and then to start fixing things is just plain stupid.






The majority of the PA Turnpike was build in only a few years. Now the time study on repaving it would be longer and cost more. Now you couldn't put enough equipment (even though much of it was manual labor) together now if you wanted to.

Such an accident out of faulty conceptual engineering?? Maybe. Engineers don't always think of everything. There's always an X factor that comes along.

..but an accident like this out of neglect and lack of government initiative? That's just not acceptable.
 
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Wasn't there a bridge collapse or the approach collapsed a few months ago in the San Francisco bay area?




A speeding gasoline tanker truck with almost 9,000 gallons fuel (operated by a company with a poor safety record; driver with a record) hit a guard rail and caught fire. The blaze melted the steel components of an I-80 overpass, which then collapsed. I think it took only about a month to rebuild it all.

bunch of pictures

Check out the melted tarmac. It hangs down like carpeting.
 
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If the Fed Govt. repaired/replaced every bridge and overpass in the USA, there would be a tremendous outcry, due to the unthinkable massive spending. It is un-doable.
But when something breaks, somehow the Govt. should have known about it before and done something.




Exactly. Easy to put on the Political Tinfoil hat..as one politician already did: She said that "No bridge should ever fall down in the U.S."
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This coming from the Same Congress who couldn't even run an in-house Post office. Scheesch

No major bridges have come down since 1983..I think that's pretty good.
 
From what I have been able to find out I don't think this bridge was built all that well. Some of the engineers are talking about a lack of 'redundacy.' And now they are going to check all of the bridges in the USA that were built like this one. Poor design and cutting corners have a way of catching up with the people who do the poor design and the corner cutting. Heck, this bridge, which probably was not exactly a stellar construction, was one of the most busy bridges in the USA. An average of some 140,000 vehicles a day went across the bridge. I bet the replacement will be built a little better.

My faith in FOX News was renewed. Again, just like the terrorist attacks in England, FOX was first on the scene. Oh, just so nobody misquotes me, I am not saying terrorism had anything to do with this bridge collapse. There is no evidence for that. Although there was cheering in a few countries when they heard about the collapse of the bridge.

Most of all, I feel sorry for the people killed and injured.
 
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I know the ability to "earmark" money is challenging in our political environment ..but if a bridge has a 25 year lifespan ..you had better be planning on raising money for 25 years to replace it.




Problem is that infrastructure, once it's reached the end of it's depreciation life is worth the most to those who own it.

I'll use some big money generating facility as an example.

They are designed (typically) for 25 years, 150,000 operating hours. They are depreciated over 25 years.

When the 25 years is up, then the station is essentially "free" and generation from there on is cream. This is the point that returns to shareholders really crank up.

Then the "life management" issue comes up.

Components don't all fail at the 25 year mark (like Colin Chapman's ideal race car), some things are only half stuffed.

So you survey to identify damage and risk, and start remedial works to manage the ultimate life of the equipment. Have to financially evaluate even equipment that is totally rooted, as no-one wants to spend new capital on an asset that's beyond it's use by date (even though they are making a lot of money using it).

As reports pass up the chain, they go from "serious", to "concerning", to "manageable", to "well managed" to "no problem".

That way, those managers in the middle don't suffer too much heat, and those up top have plausible deniability.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in my eyes of managing the residual life of an asset to the most economic point for replacement, as long as all things are factored into the assessment.

I've been chipped a few times for some of my cost benefit analyses, as when assessing risk/consequence, if there's a possible serious injury/fatality associated with a risk, I insert the biggest financial number that the programme will accept as the consequence...I won't value a human life, so they get the biggest cost possible.
 
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No major bridges have come down since 1983..I think that's pretty good.





Al, that's kinda like saying that no nuke plants have had major issues since TMI and Chernobyl.

NONE is what any modern society ...the most consuming society ..the one with, according to the CIA World Fact Book, "the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world" should have.

The cost are just getting in the way.
 
Gary,
it's the sort of thinking that allowed the Pinto to become a mobile cremation service...we know there's a problem, but it costs too much to fix it.

There was an interesting case down here where a council (county ??? in your terminology) was turning many old graded roads into bitumen roads...overextended themselves and ended up with rubbish and dangerous roads.

A guy on a motorbike suffered a serious mechanical failure due to a patched upon patch pothole with a Pablo proportioned rock in the middle of it. IIRC he ended up seriously disabled requiring constant care.

Courts awarded compensation, and made council liable as they had presented a tarmac road, but failed to maintain it. They were better presenting a graded dirt road, and maintaining it to a high graded dirt standard.
 
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Al, that's kinda like saying that no nuke plants have had major issues since TMI and Chernobyl.
The cost are just getting in the way.




Sorry Garry IMHO we can't afford a perfect world where nothing bad ever happens. You could throw a trillion dollars at the bridge problem..to the determent of other things likely to result in fatalities. To get the last couple percent of unreliability out of any system costs magnitudes of money more.

All it takes is one joint somewhere on an antiquated design like this and the bridge is coming down. If you want to rebuild all of em' fine. We can add a few more trillion of debt to our already fatal obsession for borrowing.

A much better return on equity would be for the government to give free colonoscopies to everyone. That would save 100's of thousands of people...Why don't we do that for a fraction of the cost? of bridge inspection.

Oh yea fatalities on bridge failures are currently running at about .5/year. But now that the politicians are posturing the JoeSixpacks are buying it-again.
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----..replace them all. I'm too old to have to pay for it.
 
"But now that the politicians are posturing the JoeSixpacks are buying it-again."

Al, you've hit a bulls-eye. It's frustrating and sad to watch these yahoo's position themselves over an accident that might have possibly, not assuredly, been able to be prevented.

Taking your idea a different route--if we want to prevent people from dying we need to ban all tobacco & alcohol as these 2 kill more than most other things combined. But will the politicians do THAT? Nope.

The families haven't even buried their loved ones and the vote-jockeys are already out there looking for those votes. And the reporters aiding them, too. I turn the channel whenever I hear someone performing the 'posturing', politician and 'journalist' alike. Life is too short to allow that drivel into my ears.

Now I see why people refuse to watch the news & enjoy the Discovery channel so much. And it's now in HD. Long live the Discovery Channel.
 
I don't agree, Al. Bridges and whatnot are government investments in infrastructure that yield value to not only the people that use them ..but also the government itself. The lost revenue to the private sector in terms of productivity and added costs to alternatives typically add up to more than the realized costs of the remediation. You need look no further than 9/11 where the disruption to the expensive money loser turned it into millions a day in lost productivity and all that was supported by it.

There are many things that "you can't afford NOT to" do.

There is no rationale that plays statistical lottery with assured fatalities.

There is no way to retreat back to Rt66. We've built this massive monster and are going to have to feed it. The alternatives are far more costly.

or

Start an ad campaign stating things just as you have. "Now we'd like to assure you safe passage in your daily driving activities ..however we can no longer do so. Typically, you would be more a danger to yourself than the road surface that you're driving on. Unfortunately, we can't give you that level of assured reliability anymore ..so put a new potential risk into your non-fatalist anxiety index. The bridge under you may collapse at any time due to disrepair ..and we probably won't do anything about it until it does. Have a nice day. Remember, we care. This has been a public service announcement...."

Nope. I can't buy that as being considered responsible policy. If you can't afford to fix/replace it ...shut it down and live with the consequences.
 
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