Hyundai Motor closes engine development division. All development will focus on EV

[PandaBear]

I hope all of us will get richer while we work??

I guess trickle down doesn't work when its tax money trickling down??

Small government needs to keep outa my bedroom also...right to privacy from the government is my first priority...

1) We all get richer if we don't look at inflation otherwise we get relatively richer or poorer.
2) Trickle down? or Trickle up? It all depends on what kind of rose tinted glasses you wear.
3) I can't end an accidental pregnancy in some places on earth (even in the US), that's one of the biggest expense in life.

 

[Trav]

The military budget to dominate the entire world is the biggest subsidies to the energy sector. Sadly, there is no way energy can be decoupled from international politics, no freaking way. So we are stuck with paying our share of defense budget regardless of how many gals we use per month and how much we don't want to get messy with wars and casualties.

Dominating the entire world is not a goal and never has been for the USA.

 

[wemay]

"Socialite elitist"
"Rich Liberals"

This thread has turned into an sh♤♡ show.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

The military budget to dominate the entire world is the biggest subsidies to the energy sector. Sadly, there is no way energy can be decoupled from international politics, no freaking way. So we are stuck with paying our share of defense budget regardless of how many gals we use per month and how much we don't want to get messy with wars and casualties.

That's too simplistic.

If you enjoy any international travel, any international trade, plastics, technology, foods or textiles from around the globe, or having heat and energy in any capacity, there needs to be a military that can create some stability for Americans globally.

Energy (e.g. oil) is just one component.

In fact, the domestic energy companies compete with the Middle East so they probably would profit if we cut ties with the M.E.

 

[Spyderman24_7]

Eh, just disregard the 59 people whose deaths in Texas were attributed to the grid failure.

No, we won't just "get thru it." The US power grid is flirting with collapse already in many states, including CA. The amount of money to upgrade it will continue to financially cripple the nation.

But it's worth it so the elite can have their $15 lattes while surfing Google hands free driving in CA gridlock traffic.

Lmao and the more hands free driving there is the more those self-absorbed idiots will be taken out when they hit a tree, etc. and one less EV to deal with.

 

[vwmaniaman]

Our Walmart put in 6 charging stations for electric cars. I have yet to see anyone use them. Same thing with some of the restaurants here. People here just line up at the Sam's Club gas pumps.

 

[oilcandave]

Eh, just disregard the 59 people whose deaths in Texas were attributed to the grid failure.

No, we won't just "get thru it." The US power grid is flirting with collapse already in many states, including CA. The amount of money to upgrade it will continue to financially cripple the nation.

But it's worth it so the elite can have their $15 lattes while surfing Google hands free driving in CA gridlock traffic.

Ya, gotcha..the US has been living off the deprecation of the infrastructure just like an old mall.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Our Walmart put in 6 charging stations for electric cars. I have yet to see anyone use them. Same thing with some of the restaurants here. People here just line up at the Sam's Club gas pumps.

I rarely see these charging stations in use. I just returned from a 3 week vacation and stayed in a major Inn. It had 2 charging stations. I saw exactly 1 car use it in 3 weeks.

 

[Trav]

Our Walmart put in 6 charging stations for electric cars. I have yet to see anyone use them. Same thing with some of the restaurants here. People here just line up at the Sam's Club gas pumps.

You watch what happens when car companies only offer EV in the US, they are going to take it in the arse and in short order. They will start ICE production before bankruptcy.
The electric grid where I am is close to or worse than sub Saharan Africa, just last week we had 2 small outages then 10 min later it was out for the night and this is not an occasional thing, its common.
Not only that, MA is one of the most corrupt states in the country, there is no aternative but to buy electricity from a criminal enterprise that have one of the highest rates in the whole country.

 

[Cujet]

One issue many of us have with EV's is the fact that an engine from 1922 can still be used and will still make full rated power, yet a battery pack that is 10 years old, is pretty much used up and dead. The value of an older fuel powered vehicle remains subject to market conditions. The value of an older EV is directly tied to battery age and it's replacement cost. My car is 20 years old, and will be making the trip from PA to FL next week.

Yeah, it's a bit of an excuse to post some vintage pictures of 100 year old engines. Hope y'all don't mind. I'm not into ancestor worship, but I do appreciate examples of ancient technology. It's good to keep in mind that the better engines from the 1920's were quite good.

We have run up against some hard physical limits with regard to batteries. Capacity, weight and price have all stabilized.

https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/
Wholesale raw battery prices for current technology are expected to follow the below economic trend: Note, this is not the price of the battery pack, just the price of the battery cells.

 

[Job]

Ban A/C, electric heat, and electric stoves. Add in millions of computers and even cell phones. Power grid strain is also now due to those. Time isn't standing still, electrical grids have to be expanded and upgraded as use goes up. People did not have A/C everywhere they went before. Now it's A/C home, to A/C car, to A/C store, back home to A/C. Did I mention A/C is a major drag on the electrical grid yet? Let's ban it because we are stuck in the present with no way out.

 

[PimTac]

Ban A/C, electric heat, and electric stoves. Add in millions of computers and even cell phones. Power grid strain is also now due to those. Time isn't standing still, electrical grids have to be expanded and upgraded as use goes up. People did not have A/C everywhere they went before. Now it's A/C home, to A/C car, to A/C store, back home to A/C. Did I mention A/C is a major drag on the electrical grid yet? Let's ban it because we are stuck in the present with no way out.

There are lots of options within those products that conserve energy and lower your power bill. Air conditioners that use inverter technology are the standard now. Add to that sensors that detect room occupancy plus other factors and you have a real efficient unit. I know because I have these in another home.

Inverters are used in other appliances like refrigerators for example.

Another idea is to check out magnetic induction cooktops when buying a kitchen range. These use much less electricity than the standard version.

 

[Mainia]

We will need 75-100 new "safe nuclear" power plants in the USA to feed all the EV's. Hybrids are the answer. Start building!!!!! We are in brownout mode in the summer now. Let EVs progress slowly as they have. No need to force them on everyone from brainwashed cultish pompous rich guys that can afford it now. Tell the $35,000 year old guy he has to replace his $30,000 EV battery because a rock skipped up and broke a water cool line, or a small side impact toasted the battery. Hybrids are the answer.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Cujet makes excellent points. Old ICE vehicles can still work; perhaps marginally less efficiently but it's not uncommon to see 50 year old ICE vehicles (which would be from the 1970s) on the roads.

Think about an EV in terms of your cell phone or laptop. After a few years, the technology becomes so obsolete that it's no longer supported, battery designs change and are not compatible, batteries die and are no longer cost effective to replace, etc. We are going to see a massive dumping of EVs prematurely, probably 10 year life spans.

Heck, look at the original Prius and Leafs. I don't think those lasted long on the used market. The 1st and 2nd Gen Prius (2000-2009 era) and the 2010 Leafs are undesirable. And don't claim "infancy technology." The battery powered car technology has been around for 100 years. It's just not successful nor desirable by most people. So what this means is that while ICE cars can be made to last, and even very desirable, for 5+ decades, not so with EVs. You're realistically looking at a 10-20 year lifespan. Great for car companies. Terrible for consumers and the environment.

 

[spasm3]

Cujet makes excellent points. Old ICE vehicles can still work; perhaps marginally less efficiently but it's not uncommon to see 50 year old ICE vehicles (which would be from the 1970s) on the roads.

Think about an EV in terms of your cell phone or laptop. After a few years, the technology becomes so obsolete that it's no longer supported, battery designs change and are not compatible, batteries die and are no longer cost effective to replace, etc. We are going to see a massive dumping of EVs prematurely, probably 10 year life spans.

Heck, look at the original Prius and Leafs. I don't think those lasted long on the used market. The 1st and 2nd Gen Prius (2000-2009 era) and the 2010 Leafs are undesirable. And don't claim "infancy technology." The battery powered car technology has been around for 100 years. It's just not successful nor desirable by most people. So what this means is that while ICE cars can be made to last, and even very desirable, for 5+ decades, not so with EVs. You're realistically looking at a 10-20 year lifespan. Great for car companies. Terrible for consumers and the environment.

The leafs owners were left unsupported by Nissan. New battery? Just buy another car we don't want to sell you a battery.

 

[supton]

You're realistically looking at a 10-20 year lifespan.

Is that different than anything made in the last 20 years? actually, maybe even farther back than that.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Cujet makes excellent points. Old ICE vehicles can still work; perhaps marginally less efficiently but it's not uncommon to see 50 year old ICE vehicles (which would be from the 1970s) on the roads.

Think about an EV in terms of your cell phone or laptop. After a few years, the technology becomes so obsolete that it's no longer supported, battery designs change and are not compatible, batteries die and are no longer cost effective to replace, etc. We are going to see a massive dumping of EVs prematurely, probably 10 year life spans.

Heck, look at the original Prius and Leafs. I don't think those lasted long on the used market. The 1st and 2nd Gen Prius (2000-2009 era) and the 2010 Leafs are undesirable. And don't claim "infancy technology." The battery powered car technology has been around for 100 years. It's just not successful nor desirable by most people. So what this means is that while ICE cars can be made to last, and even very desirable, for 5+ decades, not so with EVs. You're realistically looking at a 10-20 year lifespan. Great for car companies. Terrible for consumers and the environment.

Point by point:
70's cars may be on the road (I have a 65 and 68) but statistically zero have the original drivetrain. Very few are used for daily transportation.
Cell phones are new, rapidly improving tech. Much of the change is functionality and processing change, not just battery. And style...
I don't know much about early Prius. My understanding is the Leaf was just a bad product in many ways. That doesn't make all EVs bad.
Yes, EVs were around 100 years ago. So were horse and buggies. In those days cars were only for the uber rich. No gas stations, very poor roads. While true, I cannot consider 100 year old cars of any type valuable data in today and future decision making. The world is completely different.

Saying EVs are not desirable is simply ignoring the current market. Speak to a Tesla owner, the car with the highest customer satisfaction of any vehicle, warts and all. Going forward, my 10 year old Tesla battery just might be used to store power generated by my solar panels.

 

[BLND1]

Ya, gotcha..the US has been living off the deprecation of the infrastructure just like an old mall.

Yep.

Sure, Emissions are a problem (more a symptom of a car dependent infrastructure, really). EV’s aren’t the only (or even close to the best) solution.

Mandating a wholesale change to EV’s is the easy “today” solution for politicians that have no solutions for a crumbling infrastructure.

It isn’t just the electrical grid - we’ve built roads, water, and sewer infrastructure that’s subsidized by even MORE development. That Ponzi scheme will end sometime. EV’s are just another example of kicking the can and won’t do anything to change our mandated reliance on driving EVERYWHERE. Right now gas taxes are a finger in the dike. EV’s are effectively subsidized.

Servicing infrastructure debt will turn your cost effective EV’s into tax remoras. You will all rue the day you were crowing the “future.”

 

[Cujet]

I find EV’s very desirable. From a driving enthusiasts point of view! Every time I drive a Tesla I want one.

However the claim that battery tech will suddenly improve or become more affordable is, at the moment, unrealistic.

Tesla still has not achieved the 4680 cell, and solid state cells are nowhere near viability, or low level production, not to mention the decline in cost through years of mass production.

that last point is key. nothing is pointing towards affordable and more capable cells. We have reached the very real limits of our capabilities.

this is why I like the Tesla 4680 so much. It seems to be the best practical solution.

I am on the cusp of retirement. I must choose carefully, as 10 years down the road, a $20,000+ battery replacement is out of the question. its likely I won’t live to see EV’s meet the promised goals of range, charge time, affordability and lifespan.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Saying EVs are not desirable is simply ignoring the current market. Speak to a Tesla owner, the car with the highest customer satisfaction of any vehicle, warts and all.

Can I go buy a $4000 used Tesla?

I can, right now, go buy about 100 used functional 20-30 year old ICE cars, locally, sub $4000, that will serve me well for many many years and probably longer than a new EV will. For example, there's a nice low miles $4000 2004 Buick Regal with a desirable 3.8L engine nearby right now. I bet that car if cared for will last another 15-20 years.

What % of Americans do you think can afford a Tesla? Maybe 2%. The only Teslas I see are in the uber rich areas I've traveled in or lived near. It's a rich persons car. Guess what rich people don't do. Their own maintenance. They also flip cars every 5-10 years, so they don't have the headaches of long-term ownership.

I've venture about 80% of Americans buy and drive old cars. In fact the average car age is 12 years old, which means on the far end of the bell curve there's a lot of 15-20 year old cars on the road. Probably not 5% are EVs.