Exactly. The new Mercedes EQS is smoother and quieter than any S-Class they’ve ever made. Edmunds got 422 miles in their real-world range test. Far longer than I’ve ever gone in an ICE car without stopping for gas/food/toilet.
Hyundai Motor closes engine development division. All development will focus on EV
- Thread starter wemay
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Toyota is expanding their hybrid lineup because they know there is a demand, especially in the US.
Um, you claim it's being driven by private enterprise. Then you link to a Presidential Executive Order promoting and in some ways mandating and dumping FEDERAL resources into this "simple and fast and profitable" technology.
So which is it?
In reality the Feds and state governments are going "all in" to push EVs on the people, who largely don't want it or cannot afford it. I absolutely do not want it. Because I know this is ushering in a "total consumer control and monitoring" ecosystem.
It's only taken EVs 100 years to surpass ICE and only in some categories; and EVs are "superior" in few real world applications. Quickness, which is irrelevant. At home charging, which comes with the tradeoff of big expensive batteries, infrastructure changes, and limited availability to utilize such tech (what do apartment dwellers do?). 4WD, which is an advantage. Silence, which is a disadvantage in many instances.
EVs still lose to ICE in most of the more important aspects: Ease of maintenance, refueling speed, infrastructure to operate and use and maintain. And EVs still cannot power big machines like airplanes, earth movers, etc.
EVs appear fantastic to the elite class of consumers who intend to buy and use for 5 years and dispose of. The real costs are in production, and then the 2nd and 3rd owners, and then landfills b/c it will not be cost effective to keep them operating. They are an environmental disaster.
That press release is from August 2021. Almost every manufacturer announced plans to ditch ICE long before this past August.
Audi/VW knows EVs are more profitable, they’re pretty much at the tipping point now - way before true mass production of batteries has even begun.
https://insideevs.com/news/538396/audi-ev-profits/amp/
Oh please, big government has had their hands tipping the scales for a decade or more to push EVs onto the public. I remember when they were handing out tax credits probably a decade ago for EV purchases. Meanwhile, taxing coal and oil into extinction.
And, if it's such a magical unicorn wonder technology why is our government even involved in pushing it, or funding it, or doing EOs in any capacity whatsoever? Seems counter intuitive.
How many train box cars worth of our money did Elon Musk get in tax subsidies for his Tesla project? Now the most valuable company in the world...
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It is not 1 government, but many different countries across the world, is it really a conspiracy when both China / US / Europe have similar plan?
Are you basing this on the US market alone, or are you going to base this on most of the world? Remember, the rest of the world don't always have a lot of domestic oil and they also don't drive that long of a distance like we do, or make income like we do. Most do not need the range and they do not drive massive SUVs.
Regarding to "ease of maintenance" I have no idea what you mean when ICE is easier. With all those things to keep emission low and fuel economy high, engine need oil change, spark plugs need replacement, variable timing, variable intake, exhaust recirculation, dual injection, carbon build up, etc. You will see engine being more expensive to maintain if you are not replacing it every 15-20 years. Yes at the moment it is more expensive to build big battery than engine, but it is definitely not "maintenance".
Also infrastructure, don't forget the rest of the world too when you are talking about refinery, port, oil tanker, fuel truck, transporting them to rural 3rd world isn't easy nor cheap, and in those cases maybe either solar + battery in car or power grid for residential need is easier.
Elite or not, I'd say expecting the rest of the world to buy SUVs with 20mpg is elite, whereas a Corolla EV is not (they probably cost about the same, eventually). Very soon you will see homeless people going around with worn out EV camping near charging stations, like in about 15 years.
wemay
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Once they become more financially accessible to everyone (as in economy EVs), EV ownership will grow exponentially.
Your world view is Silicon Valley. I'm here to tell you that the rest of the world does not look like Silicon Valley. Fuel and ICE are far easier to work on and better in remote areas.
In my zip code I have probably 10000 mechanics who can fix a Ford ICE truck and parts are plentiful same day for probably most repairs. I bet there's not 5 who can fix a EV. Nor are there parts.
The infrastructure for fuel is already in place. Replacing it or supplementing it is the opposite of sound environmental policies.
"Let's just build 100,000,000 charging stations..." Sounds very environmentally conscious to me! lol.
I do concede that pumping, refining, and shipping is a major drawback of oil/fuel. Electricity is easier to make and move, and you can make it with wind/solar/hydro/nuclear; But electricity has its own unique drawbacks, as do batteries.
Not organically. But thru forced market decisions. E.g. it's going to be hard to buy an ICE when nobody makes them any more in a decade. So, yeah, EVs will have won the stacked deck race.
As far as "more financially accessible," that remains to be seen. I see 10 year loans at 5% in our future, so we can all get the newest $500,000 EV.
Yeah the rest of the world have the same Ford ICE truck mechanics and parts in same day, otherwise they are Silicon Valley. This is nonsense if you think the rest of the world buy Ford ICE trucks (they buy Toyota Hilux instead, sorry).
As I said you are an elite thinking the rest of the world is only paying $3/gal of gasoline. They probably pay closer to $6-8/gal today. They also buy much smaller cars for consumer and Hilux for industrial and commercial need (like having 6 people sitting in the bed).
I'll tell you what, you can stay where you are, and let the rest of the world figure out what works best for them while you keep buying what works best for you. If it really won't work out it will have another EV1 moment when the laws are repealed and all those EVs will go extinct, nothing to lose for you.
Either that or oil price going through the roof.
A lot of the cost of cheap oil come from military defending the supply chain. There'll be always wars trying to dominate oil supply and transport, and many nations do not want to or cannot afford to play that game. China, Japan, France, India, etc have a lot of incentive to NOT play that game, and even if they can't abandon oil they will do everything they can to avoid it (fuel economy standard, emission standard, EV incentive, tax based on engine size, etc), which leads to diesel being cheaper and end up in passenger cars.
I don't think we will get to completely EV overnight. I still believe we either have to go to battery swap based EV or hybrid with big battery and small engine for a long term solution. 2035 is a not a long time away and before then there'll be at least 1 or 2 recession / depression that skew politics around. Will the low interest rate that fuel all the investment and research dry up before then? Will there be another big energy war that turns oil price into $200/barrel and gas $7/gal? I think that can easily skew the direction one way or another.
In the end don't forget international relation between Russia / Middle East / China / Nato nations, that will totally skew any possible non financial decision around as well. China will be a funny one because on one hand they relies on Russia for oil but on the other they know they do not want to rely on them, yet if China invest heavily in EV and brings the rest of the world out of oil reliance, it will have a Huawei moment and Europeans have to decide if they want to rely on Russian oil or if they want to let China dominate EV technologies and make the European manufacturers obsolete.
Do you take everything this literally? Yeah, guy, I understand Toyotas are wildly popular around the globe. These ICE vehicles are easy to maintain, and run for decades. Probably 95% or greater of the world needs ultra reliable rugged gasoline or diesel powered engines, generators, etc.
Guess what's not going to be popular outside your $9 per cup latte drinking friends outside of the 1% in urban population hubs where there's reliable grids with power outlets at every Chevron or McMansion? EVs. There are parts of the world that RUN on gasoline to make electricity. Much of the world does NOT have electricity outside of generators. There is no infrastructure to make it, move it, etc.
I've been to MANY 1st, 2nd and 3rd world nations where there simply IS NO electrical outlet within miles. Probably 75% of Australia is barren with no outlets, for instance. Probably 90% of Africa. Probably 75% of the Middle East. How are you going to charge an EV? A gas generator? lol.
Then look at Europe. Most people live in apartments or flats without the capability to charge their cars which are parked in lots or on streets... how do you solve that problem?
The entire EV craze is just more of the elite pushing their agendas on the rest of us and I'm so tired of it. Leave US ALONE. Let us be.
And when I'm shopping for a coffin, I'll remember that. While I'm alive I'll opt for something more interesting, and yes, pehaps noisier than a padded box.
So you admit that the way US consumers buying crewcab pickup or V6 SUVs are not the norm of the world, good. I never ever admit Tesla buying or banning ICE is the "Truth and Justice" standard is what the rest of the world should follow either.
So you also admit that the rest of the world is living in apartment with mass transit, and only use their cars for short distance commute as well. Also the rest of the empty world has little to no population, electricity, gasoline, diesel, unless you spend a ton trying to bring them in, so we are on the same page. Good.
Then let's talk about what your concern is of EV and what is the future of ICE. EV is expensive right now, and hopefully will be cheap in the future because:
1) economy of scale and simplicity of EV, electricity can be generated from many sources vs gasoline and diesel only from oil. If Chinese can build them but not ICE engine then it is not really too hard.
2) oil will be expensive as more people in the world starts driving and move into middle class (India, China, Indonesia, Vietnam, maybe Africa eventually), but electricity can be from coal, hydro, nuclear, and maybe solar and wind if you are lucky so you have more types of cheaper sources instead of a cartel controlled energy like oil, this problem is real and why fuel is taxed heavily in many nations.
3) we are trying to squeeze efficiency out of oil when it is expensive and the engines / vehicles are going to be expensive, look at how much more complex our engines are compare to the 90s port injection Corolla, look at the CVT that grenade itself from Nissan, look at the complicated variable valve timing that destroys timing belt guide, look at those particulate filter that gets clogged up and need regen all the time. They will eventually hit a limit and a lot of cost needed to get them under control. With EV you can move those problem to the production side and maybe some investment in nuclear can solve that (I'm not counting only on wind and solar) if hydro is not around.
So what about those people living in apartment? They probably don't need a long distance commute (just stuck in traffic for 1 hour each way) for like 20mph every day. They have a bigger problem with parking cost than EV cost, they can either buy a smaller battery EV or they can park somewhere that also includes charging service for a cost, I don't think it is a big problem but if it is, they are relatively small and aren't aiming for 300 miles a tank range like we are in the US. Japanese get by with Kei cars for the same reason. There's a version of this kind of car in China for the cost of about $4500 or so US (they claim it is 3 iPhone), not bad for a cheap commuter.
So what about those people living with no power grid? They probably have bigger problem than EV if they are burning gasoline to generate electricity. They either have to pay a lot for it and haul in a lot of stuff other than just diesel, or they are going to need special purpose vehicles that aren't what 90% of the world is buying (cold climate? ATV? Small airplanes? I don't know), they can keep buying those special equipment off "road" than what the rest of the world is mandating for their local district (i.e. downtown emission free zone), I don't see why can't law be made special for those area, like we do for farm equipment or off road diesel vehicles.
What about rural middle class with no power grid? They will find a way to generate their own electricity anyways, they can decide if EV is right for them. They may import a lot of expensive fuel as well, so they have to decide what is the lesser of 2 evils. Let's look at Hawaii, expensive gas and expensive electricity, but they don't drive too far (26 miles around the island? something like that?), so maybe a short range EV is good for them after all, or they just need to buy expensive gasoline and not worry about it?
Now what about rural area in amazon jungle? They are not the target customer of most car manufacturer, so they have to buy what is available and what make sense to them. Maybe a cheap gasoline scooter or dirt bike with no emission control? Either way gasoline or rural electricity is going to be expensive to them.
So, I don't know why you are so against EV other than the current price. Do you still hate people driving Uber with a Prius? or deliver parts to mechanics with a Prius? Do you still have a hate against Prius now that they are standing on its own with no gov mandate or subsidies? If not I don't know what your beef is in 14 years for EV, if they can do the same as Prius right now.
Or maybe you just hate urban elite and only target me because of the "Silicon Valley" location. Maybe if I drive a Tundra you will hate Toyota too? I don't know. I know crewcab is not for me and I like Prius and Corollas, I don't mind a Tesla if it is cheap but I won't pay $45k for one today. I will never understand why people buy RVs or a full size pickup to tow a trailer home all over for "vacation", or what do people tow all the time when it is better to just rent some stuff in a destination or go somewhere that does not require towing, or why people like to own their own boat that they end up hating and want to get rid of a few years later, using only a few times a year. To me this is a bigger waste of money than buying a Prius (which end up saving you money) today, or a Corolla EV in 2035.
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You can always add fake exhaust sound to an EV like they add them to a gas engine today. Maybe some vibration device they scale up from smart phone too, to make your smooth quiet EV rumble more.
The entire EV craze is just more of the "non oil producing nations" pushing their "energy security" on the rest of the world. You see no EV push from Russia, you see no EV push from Texas, you see EV push from China, you see EV push from NATO nations.
Does this look like elites pushing their agenda to you?
or does this look like elites pushing their agenda to you?
There is some real truth in this. Behind the scenes, Hyundai/Kia is still replacing a boatload of engines.
It was harder to figure out putting gas tanks around the empty lands than it is and will be to run electrical to parking spots and charging stations. Actually apartment dwellers can have easier fill ups. Just go to where the car is parked and drive away. Now apartment dwellers have to find a gas tank to fill from. Yeah the electrical grid needs to be updated. Fortunately people are inventive just like in the past.
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