How long before 5W-20 will be the most common recommendation for new vehicles in NA?

[Sin City]

Chrylser will be changing from 5W-30 to 5W-20 motor oil in 2005 for at least some of it's vehicles. How long will it be before nearly all North American built vehicles are leaving the factory filled with 5W-20 motor oil? Also I would imagine that it is just a matter of time before Toyota jumps on the 5W-20 bandwagon. Ford stated in the past that the move from 5W-30 to 5W-20 motor oil increases fuel economy by 0.6% with no sacrifice in durability. Here is some info on the new 2005 Dodge Dakota:

2005 DODGE DAKOTA SPECIFICATIONS

GENERAL INFORMATION

Dimensions are in inches (millimeters) unless otherwise noted. All dimensions measured on ST model at curb weight with standard tires unless otherwise noted.

Assembly Plant: Dodge City (Warren, Michigan)

ENGINES

3.7-LITER SOHC V6

Availability: Std.

Type and Description: 90-degree V-6, liquid cooled with balance shaft

Displacement: 226 cu. in. (3701 cu. cm)

Bore x Stroke: 3.66 x 3.57 (93.0 x 90.8)

Valve System: Chain-driven SOHC, 12 valves, hydraulic end-pivot roller rockers

Fuel Injection: Sequential, multi-port, electronic, returnless

Construction: Cast-iron block and bedplate, aluminum alloy heads, balance shaft

Compression Ratio: 9.7:1

Power (estimated SAE net): 210 bhp (157 kW) @ 5200 rpm

Torque (estimated SAE net): 235 lb.-ft. (319 N•m) @ 3600 rpm

Max. Engine Speed: 6000 rpm (electronically limited)

Fuel Requirement: Unleaded regular, 87 octane (R + M)/2

Oil Capacity: 5.0 qt. (4.7L) SAE 5W/20

Also how long will it be before the European manufacturers are recommending 0W-30 and 5W-30 ACEA rated A5/B5 oils in place of the still popular 0W-40 and 5W-40 ACEA rated A3/B3/B4 oils that are required in many European vehicles?

[ March 03, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Sin City ]

 

[SteveD2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sin City:

Also how long will it be before the European manufacturers are recommending 0W-30 and 5W-30 ACEA rated A5/B5 oils in place of the still popular 0W-40 and 5W-40 ACEA rated A3/B3/B4 oils that are required in many European vehicles?

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When Europe starts having the same EPA MPG restrictions. That's the only reason manufacturers are using it...

 

[Ed]

Yeah! I would like to see hard evidence either by an engine rebuilder or from factory drawings that actually show the differences in clearances comparing engines and oil pumps specified for 5W-20 as opposed to earlier production of the same units specified for higher vis oils.
There has to be a reason why race cars and airplanes still use 50 weight oil!
The challenge is out there for the auto manufacturers to prove they are not kow towing to the government at the expense of engine longevity for the consumer.
I'm sure that they use statistics to determine that most buyers don't keep their cars long enough for this to be an issue so it's the used car buyer who gets stuck with a prematurely worn out engine just so the original owner could get .6 MPG better than if the government kept their nose out of it.

 

[JohnBrowning]

It will be a sad sad day for used car buyers in North AMerica!!!!

DC has some preety tough validation standards for all new engines being released these days.

They have a 150,000 mile usage cycle. They test to confirm that 70% of the powertrains will give accetable life and durability. I do not know how the timeing chains, rings and valvetrain parts are going to last to 150,000 with out smokeing and wearing excessively with 5W20. More importantly is how they will function after the 150,000 mile mark. To me a true test of a powertrain does not start until it has 200,000 miles on it! I doubt that we are going to see a sudden jump in the number of smoke free engines. I also doubt that we are going to see alot of 300,000 enignes run exclusively on 5W20!!

It also makes me wounder how many fleet vechiles have been used for validation as well as dyno testing???? How much you want to bet they have not revalidated!

When they fill the Cummins with 5W20 and the VIper with 5W20 I might reconsider!

 

[G-MAN]

I was digging through my lube articles the other night and I ran across one from a trade mag detailing Ford's and Honda's switch to 5w20 in North America. The Ford engineers were upfront about CAFE being largely behind the switch, but I thought Honda's comments were telling: They stated unequivocally that Honda was so far ahead of the CAFE curve that they did not need to go to 5w20 to many current or projected future CAFE requirements. They went with 5w20 because (and I'm paraphrasing from memory) "we are convinced this grade of oil represents the best for engine durability and power in the North American driving market."

 

[hk33ka1]

I will still be using Amsoil XW30,XW40,Xw50 in all my engines new or old so it is a non issue in for me.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sin City:

Also how long will it be before the European manufacturers are recommending 0W-30 and 5W-30 ACEA rated A5/B5 oils in place of the still popular 0W-40 and 5W-40 ACEA rated A3/B3/B4 oils that are required in many European vehicles?

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When Europe starts having the same EPA MPG restrictions. That's the only reason manufacturers are using it...

---

The Europeans are FAR ahead of us on the MPG curve. Rather than have the EPA CAFE nonsense, they have huge taxes and licensing fees on large-displacement cars.

The Europeans also penalize you at the pump in the price you pay per litre: the vast majority of that is tax.

So rather than some hokus-pokus EPA CAFE and GF-3 nonsense of a theoretical 0.6% to 2% (Maximum) "increase" in fuel economy, they hit you in the pocketbook for being dumb enough to buy an inefficient car to begin with.

Anybody wonder why Ford doesn't recommend xW-20 in Europe, South America, Central America, Russia, Africa, Asia, or Australia?? You know, to maximise fuel economy??

Ed: you've noticed that Continental and Lycoming motors require Aviation 100/120 oils? That compares to a straight SAE 50 or SAE 60 oil. Although there are some good multigrade Av oils in 20W-50. Maybe the Cessna owners should switch their Lycoming's to 5W-20??

Jerry

 

[TooSlick]

I'd expect 5w-20 to become the standard within five years, and Diesel engines will probably move to 10w-30, GP II+, or 5w-40, the latter using GP III or GTL basestocks.

Most high end Euro engines have moved to 0w-30 or 5w-40 synthetics already that meet very specific OEM requirements ....

I'd stock up on 15w-40 while it lasts ...

Tooslick

 

[FowVay]

I'm going to go out on a limb by myself here and predict that the 0W/5W-20 recommendation is just a phase and will be phased OUT in a few years.

I believe that we'll see much higher quality synthetic or hydrocracked base oil in the viscosity of 0W-30 and 40 in the next few years to help with emissions.

This whole 5W-20 thing started as a experiment to see if people could be herded around like cattle even if they knew they were being led off a steep cliff. It looks like it worked.

"Put it in the manual and threaten to void their warranty and they'll comply".

I honestly believe that as time passes we will start seeing items such as the cam timing chains and guides wearing out prematurely in the OHC engines such as Ford V-8's and other chain driven systems from different mfgr's. I don't think bearing wear is a issue but rings and bores are.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

With all the supposed improvements in motor oil, gasoline, oil & air filters, metallurgy, gasket materials, machining tolerances, fuel injection, and engine efficiencies, one would think engines would be lasting much longer. That just doesn’t seem to be the case. Forty years ago, the average engine, though requiring more maintenance, lasted at least 100K miles. Most well cared for ones lasted 150-200K before needing an overhaul. Today, it still seems like most don’t go beyond 150K before needing serious repairs. Well cared for ones seem to last 200-300K. That makes an engine life increase of about 50%. Based on the improvements mentioned above, it seems like engine life improvements should be greater.

One reason engines may not be lasting much longer are the engine designs themselves. They produce more power with less weight in a smaller package (i.e. more lightly constructed). Plus, in some cases, it seems the manufacturers design the engines for a life expectancy of roughly 150K miles. But one also wonders how much thinner oils may play a part.

I suppose it’s not that important since the rest of the typical daily driver is dissolving or falling apart by 15yrs/200K miles. Plus the fact that most new car buyers are like me and rarely, if ever, keep a car more than 10 years or 150K miles.

 

[TallPaul]

When I look in some of my automotive books (dated by 10-20 years) when 5w20 oil is listed it is only for under 20F ambient temps. One book even says that a 5w should not be used for sustained high speed driving!

Now I know the oils today are better, but realistically, what is the point of running a 5w-something oil? For cold starts, right? So why do it in August unless you live in Tierra del Fuego?

 

[T-Keith]

I think the switch to 5w30 year round versus 10w30/5w30 recomendation is to avoid confusion. Most people now days don't know a thing about cars and manufactorers don't want to hear the complaints when their cars won't start at -10, after using 15w50 by accident.

I think most will go to 5-20 soon, also.

-T

 

[TC]

Here's a list of engines which are being RUINED by thin 5w-20 oil.

(Well, actually it's a small sampling of non-synthetic 5w-20 UOAs, with each showing insignificant iron and lead wear UNDER 10 ppm. One can only imagine how the synthetic versions would have performed. Shhhhhhh...I'm trying to type this very quietly and discreetly so I won't rain on the "Thin 'PC' oil will ruin your life" bandwagon. Ixnay on the thin oilnay...)

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000296
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001080
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000668
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000588
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001312
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000954
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000500

"Engine manufacturers have spent considerable time and expense experimenting with different viscosity grades and have indicated in the owner's manual the grades they feel will best protect the engine at specific temperatures. While one manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 10W-30, another manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade. This is likely due to different tolerances within the engine or other engine design factors." http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp

[ March 04, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[satterfi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ed:
Yeah! I would like to see hard evidence either by an engine rebuilder or from factory drawings that actually show the differences in clearances comparing engines and oil pumps specified for 5W-20 as opposed to earlier production of the same units specified for higher vis oils.

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There's no significant difference in the clearances between a '03 Honda Civic and a '98 Honda VTR1000 motorcycle.

Both engines seem to have similar construction and use the same materials, ie. cam shafts riding in aluminum bearings cast in the heads, etc.

So why does the bike call for 10w40 when the car calls for 5w20? That’s a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

 

[Jimbo]

quote:

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Originally posted by heyjay:

quote:

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Originally posted by ZmOz:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sin City:

Also how long will it be before the European manufacturers are recommending 0W-30 and 5W-30 ACEA rated A5/B5 oils in place of the still popular 0W-40 and 5W-40 ACEA rated A3/B3/B4 oils that are required in many European vehicles?

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Ed: you've noticed that Continental and Lycoming motors require Aviation 100/120 oils? That compares to a straight SAE 50 or SAE 60 oil. Although there are some good multigrade Av oils in 20W-50. Maybe the Cessna owners should switch their Lycoming's to 5W-20??

Jerry

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BMW has been using 5W-30 (still ACEA A3) in North America for several years now, replacing the previous 5W-40.

Continental and Lycoming engines are huge displacement (compared to modern cars) air cooled engines of ancient technology and relatively large clearances. Multigrades tend to be used primarily for starting in the winter.

Many GM engines have oil consumption problems with 5W-30 and some Toyota engines are very hard on oil. I think those companies will be very cautious about switching to 5W-20, probably excluding certain models, like Ford. 20W-20 was common for GM in the 1950's and 1960's, but oil temperatures were probably very low in those relatively low output engines, resulting in suffiently high viscosity under typical operating conditions.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
Although we've established the whole CAFE issue, I completely agree with the "tax thing". That is even more wrong. Fill the government coffers so that you can drive a 1L s**box and they can drive 6L V-12's Mercedes limos. Definately something wrong with that picture.

As far as 20 weights...we've also already established that they "used to" exist in Europe and Australia (and even here) years ago. They may be better now, but IMO the difference between then and now is:

Then - low technology; cars fell apart...manuf. crossed their fingers the car would hold up.

Today - high tech; cars can be more accurately designed to last up to the warranty period. ie. 20 weights fit the 'disposability' designed into today's 'plastic' cars.

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Dr T: I agree. We seem willing to shovel over bales of tax money with dubious returns. Part of that "sheep herd" mentality. BAAAAAA.

We can also blame ourselves for adopting this "disposable" culture in everything we buy and use.

I'm thrifty by nature and have no problem driving the 1 litre 3 cylinder s*** box, as long as I can squeeze at least 15 years and 300,000 miles out of it.

FWIW my 1984 Ford F-150 with 302 V8 still runs strong and has 528,000km on it. It ran it's whole life on Mobil Delvac 1 "tractor oil."

The shop manual for that old Ford also shows 5W-20 in the viscosity chart. Up to 40 F max and NO high speed driving.

Jerry

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FowVay:
I'm going to go out on a limb by myself here and predict that the 0W/5W-20 recommendation is just a phase and will be phased OUT in a few years.

I believe that we'll see much higher quality synthetic or hydrocracked base oil in the viscosity of 0W-30 and 40 in the next few years to help with emissions.

This whole 5W-20 thing started as a experiment to see if people could be herded around like cattle even if they knew they were being led off a steep cliff. It looks like it worked.

"Put it in the manual and threaten to void their warranty and they'll comply".

I honestly believe that as time passes we will start seeing items such as the cam timing chains and guides wearing out prematurely in the OHC engines such as Ford V-8's and other chain driven systems from different mfgr's. I don't think bearing wear is a issue but rings and bores are.

---

You bet it worked. MOOOOOOOO.

How long are most engine warranties? 3/36? What the hay, anything happens beyond that, the manufacturer chuckles and tells you "TFB!"

Jerry

 

[heyjay]

Hey Jimbo:

I was just teasing about the Cessna owners and their Continental and Lycoming motors. Those old beasts haven't changed in +50 years.

That said, even with multigrade Av oils, a preheat is still recommended if much colder than +15 F.

I solved most of my oil consumption problems in my 2000 GMC Sierra with Vortec 5.3 litre V8 by using far heavier oils in summer. Now off warranty, I'll keep doing so.

If the thinner oils are creating oil consumption issues - and we know the makers dream up the "it's normal" chant for 1 qt every 900 miles - what is THAT doing for HC pollution?

Jerry

 

[Dr. T]

Yeah, well that "made by Castrol NA BMW 5-30 synthetic" gave me the same experience was the Australian SLX 0-30 users. A gummed-up engine.

What does BMW really use in the fatherland? Castrol R 10-60 in M3/M5 engines and the one I have...."Made in Germany (Munich) BMW 0W-40...NOT the 5-30 used by NA dealers. I'm on my first interval...stay tuned.

 

[Dr. T]

Although we've established the whole CAFE issue, I completely agree with the "tax thing". That is even more wrong. Fill the government coffers so that you can drive a 1L s**box and they can drive 6L V-12's Mercedes limos. Definately something wrong with that picture.

As far as 20 weights...we've also already established that they "used to" exist in Europe and Australia (and even here) years ago. They may be better now, but IMO the difference between then and now is:

Then - low technology; cars fell apart...manuf. crossed their fingers the car would hold up.

Today - high tech; cars can be more accurately designed to last up to the warranty period. ie. 20 weights fit the 'disposability' designed into today's 'plastic' cars.