Automotive Longevity. How Long Will it Last

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A veh runs as long as the cost / benefit of repairs makes said repairs desirable. My trucks I need a min of 500k but really closer to 700k from before rotating them--about 3 years on average.
 
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One question for Dr. Haas if he is still monitoring this thread.

Dr. Haas, there is something you don't explain. If Ferrari specifies 5W-40 oil, why are you so interested in trying something like 0W-20? Do you believe the thinner viscosity will improve performance?

Because of Ford's influence and US CAFE (fuel economy) laws, the rotary-engine Mazda RX-8 specified 0W-20 in North America. In other markets, such as Australia, higher viscosities such as 10W-40 were specified. Higher viscosities had been usual in previous Mazda rotary models.

The RX-8 had problems with engine failures in North America that did not seem to be so prevalent elsewhere, and many have suggested the thinner-viscosity oil was a cause (but not the only one). You might have the same problem arise running the likes of 0W-20 in your Ferrari. Hence my question.
 
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Interesting. May I suggest keeping a public journal on how things go. Go ahead and post your mileage and oil changes and all other fluid changes, required maintenance requirements etc. We currently post these things organized by maintenance category but you can organize it by vehicle.

I’m currently reporting in under the topic of vehicle longevity and am informally providing info on replacement repairs to try get to 300,000 miles with my 350 HP 6.0. The original poster suggested most high mileage vehicles need a certain amount of replacement parts with time. I’m at 220,000 miles, and follow a maintenance routine that is more rigorous than suggested in the owners manual, ( but not ridiculously more). So far I have replaced most the rotating items on the front of the engine, including the power steering pump and alternator, most of the belt pulleys, but not the water pump. I replaced the master brake cylinder and renewed the brake fluid all the way to the calipers. I have replaced brake pads and roters once. As far as I know the piston rings are just fine on a diet of synthetic 5w30 until 200,000 miles and now 5w40 going forward. It does not consume oil at all. Its not a Ferrari, but represents 13 years of dedicated maintenance. I guess my point is, the engine is fine, it’s the other items which will require attention with time.

It should be interesting to see how a Ferrari fares. I haven’t followed any Ferrari forums but I imagine folks will go through brake pads and complain about the odd oil leak. Pretty soon the forums will complain about being smoked by E cars. Sorry about that one. ;)
 
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AEHaas

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“If Ferrari specifies 5W-40 oil, why are you so interested in trying something like 0W-20? Do you believe the thinner viscosity will improve performance?”

Ferrari recommends oil based on the car being on a race track. A 20 grade oil running around town is thicker than a 40 grade oil running at wide open throttle on the track using all 800 HP. As oil takes around 20 minutes to warm up to the operating temperature while driving around town it is almost always thick as honey. Most trips are for me less than 30 minutes long. Hence the oil is even thicker yet.

I have demonstrated that these Ferrari engines have less wear running lower grade oils around town than the specified oils. Yes the results are of a small sample but they all show the same tendency. Oils less honey like will allow for more power, more fuel economy, less start up wear, running at higher RPM sooner, et cetera. My current 812 Superfast has sump temperatures of 165 - 175 F as I drive around town. What am I using at most - 100 HP? 200 HP? Certainly a 20 grade oil around town is way more viscous than a 40 grade oil while racing at the Sebring track using all 800 HP for 30 minutes.

Here is some data from older posts:


It may be worth revisiting this old UOA (used oil analysis) comparison. I am giving evidence that thinner oils can be used when otherwise very heavy grades may be specified. And that thinner oils may result in much less wear than when the “recommended” oil, in the “manual” is used.

Several things to note. We are neighbors, drove the same car (but for the milage), drove the same way in the same environment. His car had what can be considered normal wear. Yet mine had a significantly reduced wear pattern. Also, the original RLI that dropped to a 20 grade oil had more wear than the newer “Enzo” formulation. But it was still less than the 60 grade Shell oil. Maybe the sweat spot for this car was a 30 grade oil for driving in our environment.

Compared Enzo Ferrari UOA from years ago: This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 4,400 miles on the right column (middle 2 columns, earlier UOA of my car). Both cars had about 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC in the second column, the original formula of RLI in the 3rd column and the “new and improved “ RLI “Dr. Haas” Enzo formula in the last column.

Tested my Enzo oils by Terry Dyson. His testing counts larger particles as well as all the smaller ones so other labs may give false lower values. At no time has the oil temperature in this engine gotten above 180 F. This latest oil has been in for nearly two years but Terry Dyson said I should just keep going (and going and going). What is particularly interesting is that the original RLI formulation dropped to a 20 grade, the newer formulation did not.

Part of the original post: I believe this formulation has been perfected and am considering it’s use in all my cars. I am not sure my wife will allow such a thick oil in her Murcielago however.

OILS: ….....Shell.... GC….RLI….RLI - “Dr. Haas Enzo Formula”
Iron___________ 32...11...7...3 (Fe in RLI VOA =2)
Chromium ____<1...0....1...0
Nickel _________2...1....0...0
Aluminum _____11...3....2...0
lead _________ 16...0....3...1
Copper _______25...8....4...3
Tin __________<1...0....0...0
Silver ________<1....0....0...0
Titanium _____<1....0....0...0
Silicon ________ 7...3....4...2
Boron ________ 1...3...16..17
Sodium _______ 8...3....10...8
Potassium ____<10...0....0...0
Molybdenum _ <5....1....2...0
Phosphorus ___1026...935…1032…698
Zinc _________ 1135...1228…1055...988
Calcium ______ 1454…167...2108…1898
Barium ______ <10....0....2....0
Magnesium __1219...526…53...19
Antimony ____<30.....0....265…271
Vanadium ____<1...0.....0.....0
Fuel %Vol ____<1...1.2...1.3...1.5
Flash_______not done..335..320..300
Abs Oxid _____ 34...10..127...95
Abs Nitr ______ 11....8....8....7
Wtr %vol ____<0.1…....KF=247.......KF=1063 “a little damp, but not bad”…....766
Vis CS 100C __ 15.8....11.8….8.6….9.8
Vic CS 40C___not done…66….44….48
SAE Grade _____40....30....20....30
Gly test ______NEG…..0.37 “not antifreeze”…...0…..0
TBN _________not done...7.9....5.9...6.4
TAN _________not done...1.7....1.4...1.3
Visc Inde x___ not done…154...177...192
Soot_________not done...0....0.01....0

Note that the Enzo engine that specifies a 60 grade oil had very little wear while running a 20 grade oil. But again, no use of all 650 HP. It’s just not possible driving in normal conditions. While running at 8,000 RPM and using all 650 HP may require a 60 grade oil, driving around town does not. I believe based on my own experiments that these cars are better off with oil grades more appropriate for urban driving as that is all I do these days. Though tempting and offered I have not raced for quite some time. Actually the last time I was on the track it was testing the soon to be released Maybach 57 and 62. Several professional racing drivers and I gave feedback to engineers from Stuttgart. ‘Quite a thrill. Several of my suggestions were done to the car. I eventually bought the original version then later the AMG version. Again, with some added Dr. Haas modifications.

Even Lamborghini tried to get my wife and her car on the track to no avail. It was enough for her to sip some wine with Valentino Balboni in our own garage. Note- her car ran a steady diet of a 20 grade oil:

DSC_0575.jpeg

Ali
 

TCL

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Try a 0w-16 vs a Ferrari spec. Run the SNOT out of it for 500 miles and then let us have the test results.
 
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Your W-20 uoa's look great!(y) I wonder what your uoa would look like with a W-20 after some high (legal:p) speed long extended high way drives?
 

AEHaas

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While driving around town the temperature of the oil (currently 40 grade) may be around 175F. Then get on the highway at 80 MPH and it drops to 165F.

Ali
 
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While driving around town the temperature of the oil (currently 40 grade) may be around 175F. Then get on the highway at 80 MPH and it drops to 165F.

Ali
I think you have it right there. The 812 Superfast was not designed to get groceries. That is a very low oil temperature. Might as well run some 8 cSt oil.
 
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ZeeOSix

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My current 812 Superfast has sump temperatures of 165 - 175 F as I drive around town. What am I using at most - 100 HP? 200 HP? Certainly a 20 grade oil around town is way more viscous than a 40 grade oil while racing at the Sebring track using all 800 HP for 30 minutes.
Probably more like 30 to 50 HP if you accelerate normally. Oil heats up from RPM and the shearing friction between part more than the amount of HP being produced. You could put the car in neutral and hold the RPM at 6000 RPM for 20 minutes and the oil would heat up pretty good, but the amount of HP to spin the engine at 6000 RPM in neutral won't be much at all. Or drive around town in first gear all the time so the RPM is way up there ... that will heat up the oil much more too.
 
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While driving around town the temperature of the oil (currently 40 grade) may be around 175F. Then get on the highway at 80 MPH and it drops to 165F.

Ali
That's pretty cool, in the summer it takes me all of twenty minutes of driving to reach oil temps hot enough to melt plastic, of course my small 4 banger's power band is between 4.5k-6.3k RPM, and it doesn't hold much oil to begin with. Some engines are designed to run as hot as material engineering allows. If it really does run that cool most of the time there's no need for a 40 grade.
 
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“If Ferrari specifies 5W-40 oil, why are you so interested in trying something like 0W-20? Do you believe the thinner viscosity will improve performance?”

Ferrari recommends oil based on the car being on a race track. A 20 grade oil running around town is thicker than a 40 grade oil running at wide open throttle on the track using all 800 HP. As oil takes around 20 minutes to warm up to the operating temperature while driving around town it is almost always thick as honey. Most trips are for me less than 30 minutes long. Hence the oil is even thicker yet.
Hmm so maybe a thicker oil protects the engine better under harsh conditions but not so under normal driving conditions.
 

AEHaas

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More and more high performance cars (and more and more "mundane" cars) are engine ECU, RPM limited, until the oil warms up and thins to a more appropriate viscosity. Unlike what all the "thick oil" people would suggest, higher and higher viscosity may not equal the best option.

I have always advocated the appropriate viscosity for the application. You can use any grade you want as long as it is the appropriate viscosity for the application.

Ali
 
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