Do you mean independent of the chronograph function?
How does someone even become an "Independent Expert" on watch authenticity? Specifically Rolex
- Thread starter JT20
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Do you mean independent of the chronograph function?
Ebel also used the same El Primero cal 400 but did not throttle it, they left it at 36,000. From that they made one of the nicest chrono movements ever made the 137, same dial layout as the El Primero but much thinner. I will try to get a pic of the back later but it is also a certified chronometer in SS and 18K, this one will never be made again and ebel will never make the movement again so its a lifetime keeper, I bought it brand new with all papers and box.
The only way to get this movement is either a used one or buy a UN.
https://www.ablogtowatch.com/ulysse-nardin-marine-chronograph-manufacture-watch-hands/2/
The only way to get this movement is either a used one or buy a UN.
https://www.ablogtowatch.com/ulysse-nardin-marine-chronograph-manufacture-watch-hands/2/
I've never seen a COSC certificate, although supposedly they keep records(and Rolex is by far and away the largest company submitting).
The only certficates I have seen are observatory certificates. COSC is pass/fail. Observatory trials actually "grade" watches and the certificate and records will stipulate the recorded deviation.
I'm not aware of anyone recertifying after service. With that said, COSC standards are, TBH, quite loose. IIRC, they allow +5/-7/day across 5 positions, which is not as good as the old American railroad standard of +/-30s a week(not to mention the internal American maker standards I've seen from companies like Hamilton, which were more like 5 seconds/day across 6 positions for a 992B). Still, though, the most common day and day-date Rolex movements are freesprung with an overcoil hairspring, which gives superior positional and isochronal performance to a conventional flat regulated hairspring, plus consistent performance well past service. Overcoil hairsprings tend to have a lot more tolerance for variations in amplitude, which again gives a lot of allowance for amplitude varying according to position and wind state.
Interesting comparison.
From memory "Balls" time was pretty strict, but I never thought about it in relation to COSC like that.
Probably because I see very little of the old standard.
I had it serviced once in 2019, no issues. Lovely movement and very accurate with no rotor wobble just smooth as glass, I wouldnt part with it.
It wasn't just Ball(which didn't make their own watches, as a side note).
There's popular lore about a train accident and a few other odds and ends like Webb C. Ball pushing the standards, etc. A lot of it is unsubstantiated, but a pretty consistent standard from the 1890s up until quartz basically killed mechanic watches for non-enthusiast use was +/-30s/week.
The Hamilton internal standards are fairly easy to find, but other companies like Illinois, Waltham, etc wanted to be competitive and it's safe to assume that their standards were similar to Hamilton. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Illinois held tighter standards than Hamilton at least on the Sangamo Special, and I know from published information that Waltham held the Premier Maximus to higher standards(the PM could be had with a Class A Kew observatory certificate).
Yeah Balls were always spec watches shopping around to various American manufacturers.
I recall they had one in house movement somewhere in the early 2000's, but they rest of the lineup was ETA based.
I would like to own one as the gas micro lights are kinda cool.
Webb controlled like 100K miles of rail and implement lots of safety standards, but yeah lots of lore, around it.
I'm pretty sure the term " On the Ball" was sports related not Webb related.
My most precious timepiece is my grandads 20th anniversary watch from inland steel, its a Hamilton Rodney, everything else I have can be bought with money, that one came from sweat.
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Ive wore Rolex watches since I was in High School....and you could buy a Sub for about 360 bucks or so.
Right now I own a Explorer 39mm I boght new in 2018, GMT Pepsi bought new in 2004, and a DateJust 2 tone bought in 1990
When you open up you know what to look for after 45 years of buying selling....ive owned over 50 in my life.
Real Rolex will have the movement on the flywheel like 3132 etc....the color is dark red the finish on real one is perfect....somebody emailed a pic last week .....i told in 1 sec it was fake ....no rolex has a see through case in back.
Ive only been fooled one time a few years ago with a sub the had swiss movement in it and had spent a good deal of money trying to look like one. the test came down to the case steel 904L is always Rolex....nobody else uses it .....its was 316 steel...
The only 100 percent way to make sure its real is spent the bucks and buy from a Rolex dealer!
Right now I own a Explorer 39mm I boght new in 2018, GMT Pepsi bought new in 2004, and a DateJust 2 tone bought in 1990
When you open up you know what to look for after 45 years of buying selling....ive owned over 50 in my life.
Real Rolex will have the movement on the flywheel like 3132 etc....the color is dark red the finish on real one is perfect....somebody emailed a pic last week .....i told in 1 sec it was fake ....no rolex has a see through case in back.
Ive only been fooled one time a few years ago with a sub the had swiss movement in it and had spent a good deal of money trying to look like one. the test came down to the case steel 904L is always Rolex....nobody else uses it .....its was 316 steel...
The only 100 percent way to make sure its real is spent the bucks and buy from a Rolex dealer!
There's actually a lot of discussion around this.
Ball watches are generally readily identifiable as to the company that made them by the plate layout and a few other features, although you'd occasionally see some Ball-specific features on a watch. Generally the Official Railroad Standard watches had a distinctive circular damaskeen pattern.
They did, at least at one time, do the final adjustment and timing in-house rather than taking what was delivered. Jeff Hess, who is president of the current Ball USA, at one point had unearthed correspondence from I think Waltham acknowledging Ball as a manufacturer. That comes with some caveats, though, as it was from a time when Waltham was headed downhill and they were probably trying to win brownie points. At that point, Hamilton was the primary supplier to Ball. There were also some interesting things too, like a particular type of hand fitted to Illinois Ball watches.
This is one of my favorites, and interestingly enough it's not actually marked "Ball" anywhere on the watch. These were some of the earliest Ball watches, and carry private labels for various Ball jewelry stores. This particular one is still operating. I'd actually been shopping for one of these for quite a long time. I'm not a Ball collector, but it's a key piece in another part of my collection. I'd watch a couple come up for sale, and had bid on a few. One at Bonhams fell with a cheap hammer price and I did bid on it, but it had the wrong dial(probably an impossible fix, or nearly so) and didn't make reserve at $850(I dropped out at $800). I pushed another on Ebay up to $2500, but wasn't comfortable going higher(honestly higher than I should have, but that's an auction for you) because it had a few condition issues that would have bugged me. That one stopped at $2800.
Finally, a couple of years ago, I was at the Cincinnati show and a dealer from up around Cleveland called me down and said he had something I might like. We came to a deal on it, and I walked away with a smile on my face. It was between those two numbers I mentioned above, but closer to the lower one, and nicer than the higher priced one.
BTW, to the original question on becoming an "expert"
I've been knee-deep in American pocket watches for over 10 years now, which is no time compared to what a lot of folks have done. I know a lot more than I knew 10 years ago, and a lot of that knowledge has come from published sources, observing watches(including a lot of holding them in my hands and looking) and more than anything talking to and learning from other folks, then putting the "big picture" together as best as I can from all of those. There are a few very narrow fields of American watches-in particular minor variants of Waltham 1883 model Crescent Sts and also cataloging of Kentucky Private Labels, where I may be able to claim to know at least as much as anyone living on those subjects, but those are incredibly narrow fields.
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Very sweet piece. Great history. Thanks for sharing.
When you say it doesn't say Ball anywhere - you mean inside the case right?
My super limited scope for these was that the majority were 17 jewel watches and there were a few higher jewel counts made up to 21.
Is this the case and how rare and expensive do they go?
When you say it doesn't say Ball anywhere - you mean inside the case right?
My super limited scope for these was that the majority were 17 jewel watches and there were a few higher jewel counts made up to 21.
Is this the case and how rare and expensive do they go?
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Yeah i had a two-tone like Don Johnson wore in Miami Vice with the Zenith Movement....sadly back in 1998 my wife and I went to meet some friends for dinner on a Sat night.....when we got home we had been robbed ....missing was the EBEL watch my wife's Cartier watch some gold rings plus by beloved Rolex Sub i had had since 1973 ....after that i bought a safe to put guns and watches in..... at over 450 pounds and bolted to the floor i din't worry after that.
I had a Breitling from the 80's that came with one new! its rare to see the cert and wonder why its not included anymore. Ive sent many a watch in to Rolex and Omega for service and never got a recert certificate.
Yes its true....Ive known lots .....well a couple saying the El-
primo movements tend to be more problematic vs say a hand wound Omega Moon watch.
Ive owned many a Rolex in my 63 years....and unless its some one off custom model every one ive owned from Datejust to Daytona all are 28800 with the exception of the Daytona with Zenith movement (cal.4030) which used a Piaget hairspring to bring the vph down to 28800 to match the rest of Rolex lineup....I think its Piaget or maybe it was Piguet...hell i cant remember getting to old. Of course they removed the date function and added a diff balance wheel.
Jakes Rolex Magazine has some good reading on this.....
Welcome to the club brother.....
I think I got one with my Seamaster.
Did you know that the COSC can only certify "Swiss" watches? It's a bit of a marketing ploy.
Did not know, but not surprised.
Never paid much attention to it.
I never bought or wore any mechanical with any expectation of extreme accuracy, so I paid little attention to accuracy specs other than side info.
Ive read it i think in Jakes Rolex Magazine online.....Because Grand Seiko dont have it.....
I bought a used GS a few years ago and very impressed with it so far.....Im glad i bought used because they dont have good resale value....i put in my watch rotation to wear once in awhile.
