motorguy 222

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LOL, so reading a manual and disassembling/testing a filter is sufficient to reverse engineer a filter ? That's a comprehensive measure to be sure. I'd bet that they could even add "meets or exceeds" OEM specifications, by adding a pleat, or adding an extra layer of paint.
 
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LOL, so reading a manual and disassembling/testing a filter is sufficient to reverse engineer a filter ? Allegedly, from a couple of sources, this is how it's done. Unless the filter man happens to also be the OEM supplier ..and the auto man doesn't hand them out on request (specs) ..what would you do? I'm sure that it's more involved than two Homers sitting there over a good chew and brew just tearing apart a filter and grabbing a few pieces off the shelf and throwing it in a can and saying, "There! Better then they did! Looks real purty!" I'm sure that many many filters are subjected to a variety of tests for holding capacity, beta rating, etc...etc.
 

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Gary: You're on the right track. As we know Champ builds all the Ford OEM filters. Obviously they know the specs. They are not at libertly to give that information to other filter companies. Suppose Mann & Hummel wanted to know? Or Taisei Kogyo? Champ couldn't share that info. Some OEM's are better than others at sharing. Reverse engineering does take place. The more OEM work you do, the less you need to spend in the lab making sure you have crossed your T's and dotted your I's with multiple repeatable tests. There is one filter spec I know that takes a minimum of 96 filters to run in order to meet all aspects of it. So Bubba and Earl's garage filter bidness has problems when they just want to slap a few parts together.. [Wink]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy: Gary: You're on the right track. As we know Champ builds all the Ford OEM filters. Obviously they know the specs. They are not at libertly to give that information to other filter companies. Suppose Mann & Hummel wanted to know? Or Taisei Kogyo? Champ couldn't share that info. Some OEM's are better than others at sharing.
Y'know what this sounds like? The Michelin US Grand Prix debacle. Michelin is claiming that they had no access to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, which had been resurfaced since last year. Apparently a couple of the tires they developed for the US GP blew out on a high banked turn during practice. Their accusation is Bridgestone had data on the track surface because their Firestone division was working at the Indy 500.
 
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I deal with reverse engineering all the time in the power industry, and we do a lot of homework. I still don't see how these filters can be "built to manufacturer's specifications", when you don't have the specs.
 
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built to manufacturer's specifications I believe that it actually is stated, "meets or exceeds". So you take a OEM filter ..determine it's media characteristics for this and that. Build a can with better burst strength, etc...etc.. Test XX filters ..see what the mean flow was ..calculate your standard deviations and then go one better..
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan: built to manufacturer's specifications I believe that it actually is stated, "meets or exceeds". So you take a OEM filter ..determine it's media characteristics for this and that. Build a can with better burst strength, etc...etc.. Test XX filters ..see what the mean flow was ..calculate your standard deviations and then go one better..
I don't think most say they meet OEM specs, but rather that "New car warranties remain in effect." I think it's fairly easy to determine what a bypass setting is. Other than that, I've never really heard of every filter maker exceeding OEM filter contruction. A company such as Fram actually had access to Honda's specs when they made the 15400-PT7-005 filter for American Honda. However - it's fairly well known that the equivalent Fram PH6811 aftermarket filter has less media and a thinner can. Not to mention no molded gasket.
 
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Hi, can someone tell me what filter will cross to an FL1A but without a bypass. I have tried wix xref.with out success. Thanks. gary
 
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The PureONE box in front of me states it this way: WARRANTY Purolator filters meet or exceed original equipment (OE) vehicle and engine manufacturer requirements. They are warranted to be free from manufacturer's defects in material, workmanship, or design. [Off Topic!]
quote:
Hi, can someone tell me what filter will cross to an FL1A but without a bypass.
Well, almost. A Wix 51410 is a PH16 sized Ford style filter with no bypass. If you email Wix ..they may have a longer version of it. X-ref of this filter to a Donaldson show that it has a bypass, albiet 17lb. btw-lt2000 ..err don't be shy. You could have started a whole new topic for this. [Smile]
 

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Michelin had two of their runners test at Indy. The problem was the rest of the teams stayed in England. Otherwise they would have had more data. Turn 13 didn't change. The infield wasn't repaved. Just the oval. And it was tweaked when Firestone had problems with their tests before the month of May. Then when the IRL showed up they weren't sure how heat would effect the tires race day. The formulations of IRL tires and F1 are different and the loads on the tires are different.
 
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quote:
Winston..I believe my car manual says to change the filter and oil every change interval. Others may vary. If ,as a consumer, you want to change oil and leave contaminated oil in the filter and a media that has reached X % of it's service life because a manual says so..do it. I wouldn't. I would change the filter every time, personally.
FG, My point with filter CI's was that you keep claiming that people exceed the mfg recommendations with the filter change intervals. I do not believe that is true because the filter change intervals are often twice the OCI's. Like on my Mitsu. BTW. I always change the filter with my oil.
 
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I use Motorcraft or Wix filters on my Nissan truck (ever since I dumped Fram..). I change the oil every 3k miles, about half the time I chg the filter every other oil change. Ever since Fram I have cut open every one of these filters after use and have never seen a problem with one. As long as the filter is decently made, 6000 miles is not a problem . The little bit of dirty oil in the filter is not a problem for me. The filter on that truck is mounted holes down at about the 4:00 clock position on the side of the block so it is only about half full. On my Chevy trucks however there is more oil backed up in the cooler lines after the filter, so I do change those filters every oil change. There would actually be a good bit of dirty oil left in that particular case.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
quote:

FG, My point with filter CI's was that you keep claiming that people exceed the mfg recommendations with the filter change intervals. I do not believe that is true because the filter change intervals are often twice the OCI's. Like on my Mitsu.

This is something that has been discussed by others,yet it just doesnt seem to be getting through. If the OCI is 7500 miles or the filter change is every other time,the car owner is doeng exactly what the manufacturer is saying to do. They are not running past their directions/recommendations nor are they neglecting the auto. This is what the auto maker specs. This just doesnt seem to be getting through. If a filter is not made to do this,it should say so on the box.
 

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I can answer for myself.. [Wink] It is getting through to me anyway. Maybe not to some of you who keeping wanting to bang the keyboard about OCI's. I KNOW full well what the difference is between severe service and "normal" Most people do stop and go driving, which is severe service. If one drives the Interstate a lot , then that is "normal". But, as is the rule with other types of debates....people like to parse meanings of words. If some in here think that soccer Mom or Dad drives in "normal" mode, more power to you. This all came about because of some pictures. Of which was the topic of my first post in this thread. Lubeowner also agreed that the problems he saw were from overextended drain intervals. His words not mine. Even though MANY asked him for information about his pictures, we never received much. So we are left with differing views about the pictures themselves. We don't know the exact miles between oil changes for the pictures and total miles on the vehicle. And unless someone can point that out to me, then i'll keep reminding people of that. Even though this went on for months, we still didn't get data. Nor have we had any current pictures--with data. Don't you think that would be a simple thing to do? Lubeowner can average out the oil changes for the 8,723 vehicles in his computer system but he couldn't tell us what the mileages are for an individual picture. I am still more than willing to drop by Lubeowners shop any day, any time of day, between Sept 25th and 30th. Just pick a day and time 6am to 9pm. Let's cut open filters. Let's see if there is any sludge in the bottom of the can. Let's have some mileage data as well. I don't care what brand of filter. As my contention is that overextending drain intervals leads to problems with the filter. And i'll even bring my E-core ( with the old compound gasket that doesn't leak) for him to cut open. I should change oil & filter sometime this month.
 
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I don't know FG's take on it ..but typically, if one is doing the max recommended OCI under the max recommended conditions, the stress on the oil and filter is minimal. Let's say I'm doing 15k a year. I change the oil every 6 months ..and the filter once a year. I've obviously, assuming that I don't fall into severe duty with commercial delivery that may accumulate the same type of mileage over the same time frame, got a whole lot of highway, full temp, miles on both. Very few starts ..and probably very little "stuff" to accumulate in the filter. OTOH ..If I do 7500 miles in limited short trip situations ..and didn't bother to read the conditions of the OCI ..and just was a numbskull and went in every 7500 with my 11 month/short trip 6-7 mile commuter car ..then would anyone consider this "normal"?? Just because you adhere to one of the manufactures recommendations ..doesn't mean that you're adhereing to those that you should be. This point seems to be unfathomable to some here as well. No one in the known universe can possibly screw this up.
 
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Lubeowner or Filterguy, have you cut open any MoCraft FL-820S filters before for Modular V-8 Fords? If so, what were you seeing? Thanks guys!
 

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I don't own a filter cutter so I can't answer directly. But any filter that is cut open only will show what effects it has been used under. So someone who is religious about maintenance will see one thing. Someone that let's their filter and oil go way long may see something altogether different. You know your circumstances better than anyone else. That should guide you.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Islandvic: Lubeowner or Filterguy, have you cut open any MoCraft FL-820S filters before for Modular V-8 Fords? If so, what were you seeing? Thanks guys!
I recently cut open an FL-820S. It was only in service for 1100 miles on a '97 Expedition 4.6L. The oil was primarily QS semisyn. 10w30 API SH, with 1 qt. of MMO thrown in the mix. This is what the filter looked like:  -  -
 
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