motorguy 222

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I said I would do my own research on the weekend and here it is: ( Gary or the moderators, if you want to unlock the thread and put this where it belongs in the "super tech by-pass valve problem" be my guest) Well, here is some research for those who will take the time to read the whole thing. This is lubeowners first thread about pictures. http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002237 If you read the thread you will notice these posts by lubeowner: All of these filters were off of customers vehicles at my shop. The Frams were of unbelievable poor quality. The media pas pushed through the center tube in at least 10 places on each creating holes. A few pics show the anti drain back on the Frams. They were so hard that massive amounts of sludge built up on the face plate because the valve could not open at all. Two ADBV's broke in half just by slightly bending them. The white Carquest PH8A equivalent came off of a truck 20,000 with no oil change on dino oil. The filter with metal caps but with torn media was a PH820 Ford filter (Champion Labs) with 18,000 miles. The factory VW/Audi filter was of superb quality and had no defects whatsoever. The filter with the heavy sludge(wiped by my finger)on the faceplate came off a truck that had used the "Restore" additive. The filter was full of sludge and the baseplate had a copper/metalic goo all over it. ------------------ BTW: Last week we chopped open an AC filter off of a Ford Powerstroke and the media had split from top to bottom and was pushed together on one side of the center tube. Scary. ------------------------ Filter Guy, Yeah, lots of people that come through the shop just don't have a clue that it is important to change the oil regularly. The pictures of the real badly sludged filters I threw in because I figured that all on this board would get a kick out of how badly someone can treat their vehicle. That Champion PH820 that tore open was because the person went waaaay to long on their oil change. In no way am I trying to bash on Champion Labs products as I have used Champions Warner line for 10 years in my shop and have been pleased. Do you work for Champion? If so keep up the good work. I buy about $700/week of Champion/Warner products. ---------------------------- About quick lubes, I don't blame anyone for badmouthing them and I run one. I am an independent owner with just one store. I have seen first hand the shoddy workmanship and junk filters and products used by many quick lubes especially the chains. These places give us all a bad name and I spend everyday trying to break through the stereotypes. I try to always source the best possible filters and products for my customers. I personally examine each different product line that comes in my shop and if quality is even questionable it's outta there. I carry the Mann, Hengst, Mahle filters for European car customers, Fleetguard for Cummins, and so on. Champion is my primary vendor. I know that I don't make the profits that some of my competitors do by doing things this way but I can sleep good at night. -------------------------------------- Ok, I will try to answer some of the questions posted. Sorry about some of the pics, novice digital camera user. The VW filter was used with Chevron 5w-30 motor oil, about 5500 mile drain interval. It was on a 2.0L motor later model, but not new enough to require the 5w-40 synthetic. Yes, every Fram ADBV was ROCK hard and non functional. I do not think that oil could even get into the filter. Like I said, I bent it slightly and it crumbled. The Fram filters were used only around 5,000mi. The Ph820 Champion filter was used 21,000 miles and was severely damaged (torn open). The carquest PH8A with the heavy sludge was the worst oil filter I have ever seen. It weighed about 3.5 pounds. The element was totally plugged and torn up. Drain interval unknown, the lady could not remember when it was changed last. I will try to answer any other questions any of you may have, and if you would like any others cut open I have 1,000's of used filters of every type at my disposal. -------------------------- And an interesting post from motorguy222 The number of miles and the last known oil change date would be of help. I think that we can agree that MOST dont change the oil in their cars on regular basis,especially in a used one. Some only change the filter every other oil change. The one pic that shows the sludge is most likely a neglected oil system. ------------------------------------------ Now if one were to look at Lubeowners first thread on pictures, here’s someone who had sold Champ brand filters for 10 years and sleeps well at night. He posted the pictures and the mileages were long. And not once in his initial thread with pictures was Champ implicated as being “cheap” filters or for that matter anything much wrong with them unless people had gone long oil change intervals. Others also asked for the same information about oil change intervals and as much information as necessary. He said he would try to answer any questions. Now what was really interesting is lubeowners assesment of why filters fail: ------------------------------------------------- I think you answered your own question. I believe filter failure stems from long drain intervals and the exposure to heat and pressure and the filter plugging,(due to the long drain interval.) The paper I see in most filters after an extended drain is extremely brittle. It easily cracks and tears in your fingers. I see this caused by heat and pressure. The nitrile ADBV is also very brittle and hard after long intervals. The sludge is what seems to really do them in though. Once the paper is brittle and the sludge packs in to it it seems to eat away at the paper, maybe the acid builup in the oil. At this point the cartridge starts to twist and deform, especially in cheaper filters, and holes begin to tear and punch through the center tube like Fram's do. I have also seen many tear away from teh endcaps like I posted previously. ------------------------------------------------ Isn't it interesting that the same “arguments” posed by yours truely somehow carry less weight than those of lubeowner himself. Of course these were lubeowners own opinions. But he isn’t done because he posted more pictures: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002262 ----------------------------------------------- Holy cow! Hit the jackpot today on failed filters. Did about 50 oil changes and cut open 20 of the filters. Found the usual Fram and its knock off brands all with at least one tear or hole through the media. The media was also heavily distorted and twisted with the endcaps becoming distorted also. I cant believe how many weird brands you have never heard of are just a Fram. They must sell under lots of different names. Interesting though was a Hastings filter(our Champ # is PH253 chrysler) that was really crappy. The paper was extremely brittle, had a hole torn through about 1/2" and was very twisted and distorted. ADBV was rock hard. Also I have not been impressed with NAPA silver either. Found another today with very brittle media, with distortion and a few holes torn in the paper. Now for my rant. We cut open two of our own Champ PH253's today and both extremely damaged where the paper meets the end cap. Media was torn loose from the glue at at least 10 fold points on each filter. Mind you these were the clicker type bypasses. The media was distored where it always is with Champions (where the media is very unevenly spaced)and surprise this is where the filter was torn to **** . It seems that the bypasses must not work and the filter distorts and tears to let the oil through rather than going to bypass. I have no other explanation for the type of damage I am seeing in all the Champion line using clicker type bypass. NONE OF THESE FILTERS WERE INVOLVED IN EXTENDED DRAINS EITHER. THEY WERE 4-5000 MILES. This really ticks me off. I don't want my good reputation tarnished because a filter ends up blowing someones motor. End rant. I will get the digi in to work on Tuesday and get the new pics up ASAP. -------------------- Filter guy, Thanks for clarifying, it was late when I wrote that. About the e-core, we have had them for quite a while. Just started to cup a few open and have found no failures. I like the fact that so much oil can flow through them. The only thing I could see going wrong with them is the combo valve used. I am not sure how "predictable" the pressure open and closed would be after an extended drain and the rubber has hardened up? Just a thought. The end cap is easy to peel off but I think in real world operating conditions this is not a factor as the oil is pushing against the cap and not pulling away at it. ---------------------------------------------- So now were are setting the standard as 4-5,000 miles not being extended drain intervals. And no problems with the E-core other than you can peel the endcap off if you want to but in the “real world” E-core works fine. Now we move onto picture set #3: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002272;p=1 ------------------------------------------------- Not trying to send everyone in to panic mode, but those filters in the pics were the only ones we cut open yesterday. I would not call the failures an isolated instance. these came off newer cars with low mileage. We rarely service cars over 6 years old and most are fewer that 4 yrs. old. Our shop is in an upper middle class area with lots of SUV's and higher end cars. We do get the occasional neglected sludgebucket as some of my pics have shown but all of the pics from yesterday were ODI's within the manufacturers suggested mileages. The camera makes the media look dark and sludgy in some of the pics but I can assure you that the oil was really not bad on most of these things. Those Fram's look terrible after 3500 miles. As I said before almost every clicker bypass, or Fram built filter we have opened since this study began has had some type of damage. ------------------------------------------- Now lubeowner has sold Champ for 10 years and not noticed any problems. In his first thread with pictures he had a Champ PH820 that went 18,000 miles–then it was 21,000. He had other filters going high mileage and he admits his customers do this. But somehow 5,000 miles is considered the “norm” from his posts and that’s what owners should be able to achieve. Even though most OEM’s have a 3,000 mile OCI. ( Yes, there are some exceptions but the majority are 3,000 for severe service). So we continue: ------------------------------------------ You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations. I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight. Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that? BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel. -------------------------------------------- Now he’s indicated that only clicker by-pass valve filters have problems. He’s also implicated Fram. Champ, Purolator, and now even Wix. Basically all of the “cheap” brands. Of course when I post that all filter companies less expensive filter use less media and can suffer the same effect, well I’m not to be trusted. Of course he’s willing to send filters back, which I could help him with. And now OCI’s are jumping to 10,000 miles.. Err, what happened to the 3,000 mile change interval everyone advertises? But by now there has been a definite switch in attitude. All of a sudden after 10 years of selling Warner made by Champ, clicker valves had been available long before lubeowner posted his second thread about pictures..now we have a problem. Wonder why it wasn’t a problem with the first set of pictures? --------------------------------------------- Thought about doing that myself, but then thought why bother. One thing that I have learned in life is that if someone WANTS to do it right they would already be doing so. The company has changed hands several times recently and it seems that cutting manufacturing costs is priority #1 at the expense of the customer. I would really like to know what type of "testing" was done on the clicker bypass design. Anyone who has cut one open can see that this B.S. clicker design is nothing more than eliminating parts to cut cost. I still would like to know how they expect it to work without sending shockwaves through the filter. What really put me over the edge today was a fuel filter sourced through them on a late model Ford. The element was broken loose and rattling around inside. I cut it open and found the glue thatwas supposed to hold the cartridge to the top of the can had disentigated and the cartridge was just loose floating around in the filter body. Great. Will be meeting with the local Wix rep on Thurs. to consider changing filter suppliers. FWIW, I looked in some old Champ stock and rarely used filters on our shelf today. Boy have these filters changed. Some of these are 6-7 years old and look nothing like their current stuff, they used to be much better. ------------------------------------------- So now lubeowner after 10 years of selling Warner turns into manufacturing engineering and start to lay blame cutting costs. ( I never did answer the fuel filter bit. But just fwiw..there are 3 companies that every filter manufacturer sources in-line fuel filters from. Champ doesn’t make these nor do the others, as far as I know. Those companies are in Indiana, Ohio, and Israel.) One page 3 of this thread is where I asked for some information that would be helpfull to all forumites. Even offered my son to the the documentation or myself when I go on vacation. You can read the posts, if you’re so inclined because the same battles ensued. Other than Slalom44 posting about his claim on a Champ filter being paid. So now we go onto the next thread with pictures: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002476 ---------------------------------------------- I have had some requests to keep the pics coming and I had a little time today to cut open a few filters. I chose the usual suspects that I have seen the most problems with. They are Champion PH400 (Ford) and PH2808 (Honda), both clickers. The pics will speak for themselves. The Ph400 had about 4K and came off a Windstar van. The Ph2808 I am not sure of it's history, but noted the oil draining out was not very dark. Some of you need to understand that these filters are just in a big drainage barrel before going in our filter crusher at the end of the day and therefore it is hard to document the year, make, model, mileage, weather conditions, driving habits, and everything else I hae been asked by some people here. I am just collecting random samples and posting the pics, nothing more. BTW, I would be forever grateful to anyone here that can direct me to a place that will allow direct linking to the pics. For now, if someone smarter than me wants to post the pics to this thread please feel free. ------------------------------------------- Now in this case, he choose what he wants us to see. He also says he doesn’t have the time to give us OCI information, nor will he. Yet his first set of pictures he had the time to give us data on OCI’s. I suppose the argument is he doesn’t need to cut open other filter because he thinks he won’t find problems. And we won’t know how long a filters has been on the engine so there is no reference point as to what we are seeing. A couple interesting posts in this thread; http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002400 --------------------------------------- As for my customers doing abnormal things: I just ran a database report in our internal computer system. Average drain interval of the 8723 vehicles in our system is 3989.10 miles. Nothing too strange here. We pump mostly 5w-30 and 10w-30 Chevron in the majority of vehicles we see. 5w-20 is also getting a lot more usage here in the past few years. BTW, I really am not trying to bash Champ. I have said before I will post all pics of damaged filters, not just a certain brand, but the fact is that most of the ones with problems are Champ therefore those are the ones with pictures. We have cut open hundreds of Wixes and Purolators, Denso, Tokyo Roki, and Fram among others. The problems have all been with the Fram and Champs as the pics have shown. The only other failures I have seen were with 2 Wix filters that had been run for 20,000+ miles and were obviously severely damged and sludged (customer neglect). The only Purolator I have seen a problem with is the Pure-One we saw yesterday with a pleat torn loose from the endcap. If there are failures from any brands I will post pics, I don't care who makes them. ----------------------------- Gary, I was not trying to slam on Hastings. I think they are one of the best filters out there. But there is definitely a big quality difference in the Casite line. The media used was similar to what I am seeing in the low end Champions, very brittle after use. I don't know how long this filter was used but the oil was pretty dark colored. I am not implying to add and Hastings or Baldwin filter to a do not use list, just observing what I saw with one particular filter. Again, there was no actual torn media in the filter. ----------------------------------------------- Rather than go on and on..I think people will see a pattern. After the initial picture thread, no specific information was given with respect to the filters pictured. He can "generally" say about how long the filter might have went. There were other “debates” where lubeowner said he didn’t have the time to document the mileages for the filters he cut open. Yet, he has industry stats from sources that say most people go 4,500 miles between changes. He has his own computer that says his customer average almost 4,000 miles between oil changes. Yet for a specific filter off a specific car engine, he knows nothing. So he or his crew is logging in the information into the computer but we can’t be privy to the amount of miles the customer has on their car or the oil change interval length. And my questions to motorguy222 were; ---------------------------------------- MG:We have seen many filter failures from Lubeowner,the majority of which were within OCI guidelines,they still failed. MG:Lubeowner has supplied this info over and over again. Can you link to the specfic posts where the information about failed filters and mileage since last change are? Especially those that didn't last the OCI and which pictures they are? I must have missed them.. Because I recall myself and some others asking for that very same information and not getting it for the vast majority of pictures posted by lubeowner. I seem to recall he didn't have the time to get the information on mileages. Could be wrong though..i'll leave it to you to show me the mileage for the filter pictures posted.. -------------------------------------------- He made some generalized statements and can’t back them up, even though he tried. Lubeowner has never “backed’ up his threads with data since his first set of pictures. He has discussed various pieces of information but as anyone who does the research will find out, there is no mileages posted with the pictures. Something he said he would give, something many asked for including those who have taken me to task. Which is why I asked MG to show us where this information is because I still can’t find it after going back through the picture threads as posted by lubeowner. So what does this all mean? To some of you probably not much. But when going back and rereading the threads it is interesting how someone who had sold a particular brand for 10 years and never had a problem suddenly thinks the sky is falling. One might concluded he never cut filters open before until he found this forum. But he mentioned he'd seen problems before. The ever changing OCI intervals for OEM's was interesting as well. I will state once again, that all low end filters by every manufacturers have less pleats than the more expensive options. The low pleat count can experience problems before those with higher pleat count might. One of those problems is that there will be uneven pleat spacing. Why? Because there is less pleats. Simple as. And as lubeowner himself has said, that is not the problem. The problem is, imho, the conditions the filter sees during it's life betwen oil changes. Low end filters are not made to last as long as their higher end counterparts. They can't. The don't have the dirt holding capacity because they don't have as much media. Why that is so hard for some to determine for themselves is beyond me. Because they have less pleats they are more susceptable to other problems than filters with more pleats. Changing to a better filter does solve the "problem". But the real problem is extended oil change intervals for the filters with less pleats. If one changes oil near where they should the "problems" of ripped or torn pleats virtually goes away. But that's blaming the consumer, which is EXACTLY what lubeowner did when he gave his reasons for filter failures, blame those who are not following guidelines of the manufacturers OCI. And then use the excuse that "because well most everybody does go longer" and filters should compensate. They do, which is why companies offer alternatives. For those who sell or market the less pleat filter, they should reinforce the OCI as when to change. If the customer has a history of going to long then offer them an alternative and tell them why. Or take the easy path and blame someone else. In this case the filter manufacturer. This is not reflective of lubeowners pictures themselves. They are what they are. What it is reflective of is the inability to get information on the specific filters when posted. Something that was asked by many. If one wants to evalute something, the more data the better. But at least post basic data such as OCI and mileage on vehicle. Especially when you have customers who go 18-21,000 miles between oil changes and post that information. And no, obviously that is an exception. But how are we to know what's what?
 
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Someone has wayyyyy too much time on their hands. BTW, when I started this project I was only cutting open competitors filters or filters what had gone way overdue to see the type of damage done. I never thought in a million years that the filters we thought were great, and were OEM, and were better than Wix, and so on as the manufacturer rep told us would not be of the quality we thought. Remember, when we switched to Champ many years ago their filters were much different. FG fails to point this out. This was way before clickers and E-core. It was my fault for not continually checking the quality as changes in the manufacturing came about. Anyway, after finding this site I was interested in cutting open all filters, under all conditions and drain intervals. This is when I began finding the failures with our own filters. The first few really surprised me and I thought may have been a fluke. Then one day we cut open a whole pile of our Warner filters and found several that had damaged media. Red flags started to go up and we began focusing on only cutting open our own filters. I hope this clarifies things for others reading FG's post. FG can say anything he wants but I know what I see and that is all that matters to me. Take the pics for what they're worth. I have said it before but it doesn't sink in to some here. I have no beef with Champ, I still use their air filters, breathers, cabin air filters, etc. I just think that there are better filters out there in our installer price range, and I sure am not going to put a filter on my customers car that I would not trust on my own. Believe me, I personally know lube shop owners that do not use their house oil filters on their own vehicles!!
 
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I am on board with your line of thinking Filter Guy. Lubeowner posts some mean pics but faulters when called out on needing the specs of the change or gets wishy washy when you want to set up time to look at the filters in person or follow ups on if he has sent the defective filters back to Champ. FWIW, I have slapped on a Super Tech ST2 Ecore on my new 5.4l Super Duty when I did my first change at 1000mi. Plan to run it 2k-3K and open it up to see what all the sky is falling talk lubeowners asails on these filters. I can tell the ADBV is doing its job because pressure builds up in no time with no clatter. Hootbro
 

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I agree with lubeowner... Or does he agree with me? I think if people take time out to reread what I posted, there is a lot of agreement between lubeowner and myself. We come at it from two different ways though. Mine from a manufacturing/sales background ( yes in my day before you were sent out to sell they actually made you work in the plant..lol). His from the user side as an installer. His post about why he thought there were problems with filters is something we both agree on. His posts in his threads about what he was seeing with the less expensive filters-- and he mentioned them by name, Fram, Champ, Purolator, Wix, Hastings--- their versions of their less expensive filters had problems, if you reread his threads. The problem was he sells/sold Warner. So he would see the highest volume of problems with that line. If he sold the other brands like Nascar select or Napa silver, which he mentioned as seeing a problem with, then it is likely he would encounter a similar situation with those brands with multiple "failures". Fortunately for him he did not choose either of those two when switching to a Wix brand product. He also mentioned some non "cheap" filters with isolated problems. And all this gets back to overextended drain intervals. Both he and I agree on the reason. Where things got muddled is the discussions of 5,000 or 10,000 mile oil change intervals, imo. Some were looking at that and equating that with the failures on the pictures lubeowner posted. The problem was his pictures were from domestic cars with 3,000 mile change intervals, not ones that had 5,000 or 10,000 mile intervals. If he wants to post pictures of Mercedes filters or whatever brand of engine with the higher mileage intervals, then we all can have a look when those owners go extended drain intervals. Chances are they'll think twice if they're on 10,000 mile interval of getting 15,000 miles between, but we'll see. And the discussion, imho, broke down because people think the same media used in a Ford or GM filter would be used in an filter destined for 10,000 mile useage. It isn't. It may look the same when you cut a filter open but there are hundreds of grades of medias that do. Then there were two other issues. One being the clicker valve style by-pass. At the time lubeowner got into cutting filters open in a major way, he noticed the problems more. Fair enough. But where we split paths is that he blamed the failures on the by-pass instead of on the extended drain intervals. The by-pass may have exascerbated the problem but that wasn't the reason for the failures. His own anaylsis wasn't tempered with some common sense at this point. I can surmize why but would have preferred to discuss this in person or by PM. So i'll mention it now. As he had seen failures of low end filters of all brands, this should have told him his first impression of extended oil drains was correct. But as he got to thinking about his customers what was he to do? This is where he opted to change brands. Again, fair enough. He is going to a filter with more pleat count and will see a lot less problems. ( imo, they won't go away. As further evidence that he saw the same things in "good" filters as well.) The problem is he wasn't cutting open 100-500 of the better filters. Why? because his customer base is a high percentage of those who come more than once. Maybe he has a 70-80% return rate on customers. So he see's a lot of his Warner filters in return. He sees less of the brands he doesn't sell. His own computer can tell him the average oil changes of his customers. And that is because of the high return rate. So because his filters had the clicker valve design there was a focal point to blame. Not taking into consideration what he had encountered with other low end pleat count medias. The same with the second issue of the E-core. He had an opportunity to see a number of those come back and the difference of design was the focal point to claim the reason for a problem. All when the real problem is extended drain intervals. Which we both agree on.
 
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FG,yes I did say that a sludged filter was probably from neglect. Yes I did say that mileage of the cars would be helpful. I also read where LO's average milege on oil changes was 3500-4000 miles,a very good OCI for what would be most people. LO has stated that he stopped cutting open filters that were on neglected/high milage cars and he STILL had a lot of bad filters show up. FG,in you post above,you have posted comments from LO. It seems that LO started with Fram and a couple of other filters,they were bad. He seems to have prgressed to cutting open the filters that he installed/sold at his shop. While doing so,he started to find a high number of failures. This seems to have gotten the ball rolling,so to speak. He continued to open the Warner filters and found a high number of failures. He then changed his filter supplier. Yes,I did say that some people only change their oil filter every other oil change. This is an acceptable practice for some auto makers. Would I do this,probably not,even though an owners manual may say that it is acceptable. It just seems that Champ makes its cheaper filters on the lower end of the specs that they are supposed to follow. This is more or less saying;it meets OEM specs but barely. This is fine if people are being told of such. Fram states on their box that they meet the 3month/3,000 mile oil change interval. If you go over that,you have been told what the filter is capable of. Maybe Champ needs to do the same with their filters.
 

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MG: I appreciate your tenacity. "I also read where LO's average milege on oil changes was 3500-4000 miles,a very good OCI for what would be most people." Errr..it's printed above.. "I just ran a database report in our internal computer system. Average drain interval of the 8723 vehicles in our system is 3989.10 miles." But this means nothing when one is trying to tie two things together. What his shop averages are and what the actual OCI is for the filters pictured are two different things. Even you wanted specific information for filters pictured. We can all speculate. Was it 3,500? 4,000? 4,500? 5,000? more? less? But the key is overextending drain intervals. Whether people are doing it out of habit or because they are trying to save money or for whatever reason...they still aren't following OEM guidelines. 3,500 miles is 17% longer 4,000 miles is 33% longer 4,500 miles is 50% longer 5,000 miles is 66% longer Doesn't it make a difference to you to know near to as exact as possible how much longer someone went? Or is just an average good enough?
 
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Filter Guy- Now you have even opened a NEW topic dedicated to your defense of cheap failing filters! You get the award for longest post I think, hope you feel better, But don’t pat yourself on the back too much just yet. It is a pitty that you have chosen to make this a personal war of sorts, but you insist. Looking back over all the damaged filter related posts of the last few months it is easy to see that Lubeowner started out by looking at competitors filters and mostly saw Fram filters with failures. He also saw a few of the other various brands, but we all know that all brands can have sporadic quality issues, and that some of these other brands had also seen obviously overextended OCIs. As Lubeowner started digging deeper into the world of filter failures he started looking deeper at his own chosen brand- and seeing a larger trend with- the Warner/Champ cheap line. You comment about how he slept just fine at night while he used these cheap Champs..and then all of a sudden had a problem with them. I slept fine at night too while I was using the Frams as well, until I read about them being CRAP filters. As soon as I found that Frams were causing my valvetrain noises, and changed brands…I started sleeping even better. I couldn’t believe the filter could have caused that problem, but it did. You started to get very defensive of the Champ failures when Lubeowner started seeing those cheap Champ failures, you started insisting on getting all the background info so you could put blame on anything besides the filters themselves. You started insisting that he send the filters back to Champ as if he had some obligation to do so. Lubeowner concentrated his efforts instead on using another brand of economy filters that would not continue the failure rate that the cheap Champs had shown. Both Champ and Fram know full well that most people never cut these things up and you know it too, but all of a sudden the cat is out of the bag here at BITOG and you for some reason feel the need to defend your old company… Anybody that defends the crappiest of crap products deserves no respect , and has lost all credibility as well…you seem to make a huge effort at spinning people’s words to suit your own purpose, and you seem to have a need to try to make it sound like other people agree with you, which sounds more like some kind of self-compensation to me. It is obvious that the “clicker” Champs and ecores were becoming the prevalent problems…and you started hysterically defending them…..and it needs to be pointed out here, again, that you were defending these Champ filters without even knowing how the bypasses internal to those filters even worked. You were just defending the filters regardless of whatever was shown to you. Not all vehicles require a 3k OCI, but you seem to try to make it sound that way. Even my trucks spec a long trip OCI of 7500 miles, totally applicable in my case because 80% of my miles on those trucks were driven 40 interstate miles each way to work. I have used a 3k OCI regardless-my choice, not the book requirement though. Filter Guy, You have bragged repeatedly how you have so much experience, accomplishments, friends-in-high-places, warranty experience and whatever else that makes you feel good,,,,but your blame-everything-but-the–crap filters attitude is the only thing that is coming across.
 

Filter guy

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quote:
Originally posted by ZR2RANDO: Filter Guy- Now you have even opened a NEW topic dedicated to your defense of cheap failing filters! You get the award for longest post I think, hope you feel better, But don’t pat yourself on the back too much just yet. It is a pitty that you have chosen to make this a personal war of sorts, but you insist. I guess the war must be with you because I don't think it's between lubeowner and myself. Looking back over all the damaged filter related posts of the last few months it is easy to see that Lubeowner started out by looking at competitors filters and mostly saw Fram filters with failures. He also saw a few of the other various brands, but we all know that all brands can have sporadic quality issues, and that some of these other brands had also seen obviously overextended OCIs. Lubeowner..in his own words..said he cut open filters of high extended drain intervals, as he has repeat customers it makes sense he also cut open brands he sold. As he wouldn't really know the mileages , unless he asked or checked the sticker in the window from the previous lube shop, of those customers using a competitors filter. But if you want to beleive he only cut open competitors filters go ahead As Lubeowner started digging deeper into the world of filter failures he started looking deeper at his own chosen brand- and seeing a larger trend with- the Warner/Champ cheap line. You comment about how he slept just fine at night while he used these cheap Champs..and then all of a sudden had a problem with them. I slept fine at night too while I was using the Frams as well, until I read about them being CRAP filters. As soon as I found that Frams were causing my valvetrain noises, and changed brands…I started sleeping even better. I couldn’t believe the filter could have caused that problem, but it did. You started to get very defensive of the Champ failures when Lubeowner started seeing those cheap Champ failures, you started insisting on getting all the background info so you could put blame on anything besides the filters themselves. And like everyone else in his first thread,we all asked for background on mileages between oil changes. Lubeowner himself admitted that extended oil drain intervals was the cause of the failures. MY point was to find out what level of extended oil drain intervals for the filters pictured we were seeing. We've been over this ad naseum. It is the extension of oil drain intervals which impacts filters. The lower the pleat count, the sooner that is likely. It is NOT about cheap filters. Cheap filters are built to exceed OEM change intervals. Better filters exceed them even more. That is why it would have been interesting to put some REAL WORLD mileage figures on the "failures" If you can not understand the logic that filter companies, all of them as they all have "cheap filters", make filters to exceed the mileage OCI's, then that sir is your problem. You started insisting that he send the filters back to Champ as if he had some obligation to do so. As if sending back "failed" filters for a answer by those with the test equipment is a crime. Sorry for bringing it up and having you have a cow about it. But quiet frankly it was none of your business because your not the one with the filters to return. Lubeowner concentrated his efforts instead on using another brand of economy filters that would not continue the failure rate that the cheap Champs had shown. No, lubeowner is not buying the "cheap" Wix brand, he settled for a more midrange version. he is not, unless he corrects me, using Napa Silver or NASCAR select---which were two brands he did see failures with. So once again you're wrong with your generalities guised as fact. Both Champ and Fram know full well that most people never cut these things up and you know it too, but all of a sudden the cat is out of the bag here at BITOG and you for some reason feel the need to defend your old company… And every filter manufacturer also knows full well that most oil filters aren't cut open. So what. You want to claim the sky is falling because they aren't. Big deal. I say let everyone cut their filters open. Then they would go back to the OCI as recommended because it would do them some good to educate themselves on why there are various price levels of filters available based on the customers driving habits and needs. Anybody that defends the crappiest of crap products deserves no respect , and has lost all credibility as well…you seem to make a huge effort at spinning people’s words to suit your own purpose, and you seem to have a need to try to make it sound like other people agree with you, which sounds more like some kind of self-compensation to me. I really wish they had a rolling around smilie i'd use it here. It is obvious that the “clicker” Champs and ecores were becoming the prevalent problems…and you started hysterically defending them…..and it needs to be pointed out here, again, that you were defending these Champ filters without even knowing how the bypasses internal to those filters even worked. You were just defending the filters regardless of whatever was shown to you. And I'd use it here agian. As it is not about defending anything as much as it is about what effects extended drain intervals have on filters. They ain't bullet proof. Regardless of what you want to whigne about and use your "spin" to accomplish. Not all vehicles require a 3k OCI, but you seem to try to make it sound that way. Even my trucks spec a long trip OCI of 7500 miles, totally applicable in my case because 80% of my miles on those trucks were driven 40 interstate miles each way to work. I have used a 3k OCI regardless-my choice, not the book requirement though. Lovely..and I have posted that there are longer drain intervals by some engine manufacutrers or does not your reading comprehension kick in when reading my posts? The pictures by lubeowner were of filters off vehicles with 3,00 miles changes intervals so don't confuse the two issues of longer OCI's and what was pictured. Unless of course you want to "spin". Filter Guy, You have bragged repeatedly how you have so much experience, accomplishments, friends-in-high-places, warranty experience and whatever else that makes you feel good,,,,but your blame-everything-but-the–crap filters attitude is the only thing that is coming across. Now where is that rolling around smilie when you need it...
 
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FG- No, lubeowner is not buying the "cheap" Wix brand, he settled for a more midrange version. he is not, unless he corrects me, using Napa Silver or NASCAR select---which were two brands he did see failures with. So once again you're wrong with your generalities guised as fact. “ Lubeowner on March 10, All of the Wix are great filters. I did take apart 1 Napa silver (Wix) that was used on a very sludgy motor and extended drain that the paper had turned brittle and coated with sludge, there were 16 breaks is the paper. ZR2Rando June 22- “The Napa Proselect IS STILL a low-end filter, they are just made by Wix. So in this case it is a comparison of low-end filters made by Champ vs low-end filters made by Wix. Seems there is a substantial quality difference between the two. My local Napa store said the Proselect was the silver. I called Wix and they said the Proselect was their economy line. Wix, unlike Champ, apparently believes even their economy line should be made to an acceptable standard.” Lubeowner on June 22- “Rando, You make a very good point. The Warner and Proselect are both economy lines, what is hard to believe is that with the Wix built filter you get double the media, even pleat spacing, no media failures, and an ADBV that works.” As for most of what you say on here… [Burnout]
 
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It will be interesting in about 18 months when the Proselect line has been through the gauntlet of lubeowner's clientel. Right now the only ones that he's seeing are those that fall into a few months of service. Hopefully they will withstand the various uses and abuses that his customers subject them to in a more favorable manner than the Warners. Only time will tell.
 
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Good point Gary. I have averaged 4600 miles a year on my truck, but some years less than that. I wonder what a filter would look like after a year on dino? I would like to see fewer long rants about all Champs are junk and there is nothing wrong with any filter, and more open minded, objective discussion of why Lube Owner has so much worse experience than most here. In the mean time in my June oil change, I discovered Champ has cheapened the ST 3950. When I went to buy one, 2 of the 4 on the shelf had clicker bypass in place of the helix spring ones. I also discovered the one I ran since March was a clicker. I carefully examined it. In addition the the usually widely spaced pleats at the seam, it also had extra space between several of them on the far side. However, none of the media was distorted, torn, or pushed through the center tube. The amount of filter media was less than the last one I checked, but still in the range of others, and more than the last Purolator L 10193 I used. The current ones may not be as good as in the past, but still adequate for my use, and I don't see any reason to replace something that is working with something more expensive and less convenient. Since I have a life outside this board, I am not going to take the time to document this with pictures.
 
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quote:
I would like to see fewer long rants about all Champs are junk and there is nothing wrong with any filter, and more open minded, objective discussion of why Lube Owner has so much worse experience than most here.
[Coffee] Now you're talking. That's what everyone seems to be hurling salvo after salvo at ..hitting everything but the target. [Cheers!]
 
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"I would like to see fewer long rants about all Champs are junk and there is nothing wrong with any filter, and more open minded, objective discussion of why Lube Owner has so much worse experience than most here. " I think we all would....some of us anyway... [Bang Head] Maybe we can get some other lubeshop owners that use Fram-clones, Warner/Champ-clones, Wix-clones, to start cutting up used filters. You can’t compare a shopowner to an individual I don't believe you can compare someone like me that uses a few filters each year, to a lubeshop owner that goes through several every day. I specifically, intentionally, don't use the brands/models that I can see shortcomings in design myself, and I don't see any problems. Most lubeshops that I have called all use some clone of Frams, and they won't cut them up to do a study. They don't want to "rock the boat" so-to-speak. If those cheap Champs and Frams were actually made decently they wouldn’t have shown up in here in the first place…..
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy: But just fwiw..there are 3 companies that every filter manufacturer sources in-line fuel filters from. Champ doesn’t make these nor do the others, as far as I know. Those companies are in Indiana, Ohio, and Israel.)
Getting slightly off track, you failed to mention China. I see a LOT of fuel filters coming out of there. Also, IIRC, I've even seen fuel filters from Mexico.
 

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Rando: I guess you missed this post from March 12th which I posted above and provided the link.. "Also I have not been impressed with NAPA silver either. Found another today with very brittle media, with distortion and a few holes torn in the paper." Now if lubeowner chose the standard Wix, he'll do ok. If he chose the "silver", then we'll see if he continues to cut open filters. But at one point in time he was not impressed with Napa Silver.. But as i have mentioned there are multiple options for all automotive filter companies. People like Donaldson, Fleetguard, and Baldwin offer one "grade" of automotive filter as that is not their primary market focus. None of those companes, to my knowledge, use the low pleat count filters for cars. However, i'll add the caveat that was when they used "American" made ones. If they import filters then I haven't seen or heard how they compare to what the big four offer ( Champ, Fram, Wix , Purolator) as I have been out of that end for a few years. But i can find out if necessary. -------- Tom H.. There are some other options for in-line fuel filters. China is used for "Asian" vehicles by some. I believe Wix has a plant there. As does Donaldson. Fleetguard was looking to expand there, not sure if they did. The problem with China is the Chinese government owns 51% of the plant. If they ever nationalize, you're history. Since I left Champ there has been some expansion of production in Mexico. Fuel filters wouldn't surprise me. Again, my guess would be for Asain cars and maybe Volkswagon as there are a ton of those in Mexico.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by lt2000: Filter guy Can you tell me what is meant by "clicker bypass" Thanks
I'm not FG, but what the heck. A typical bypass mechanism uses a spring with a certain size/tension that's set to open at an approximate pressure - let's say 12 PSI. The whole mechanism takes multiple components, including a spring and possibly some gaskets and metal components. Champ had a design where the bypass was built into the leaf spring at the end of the filter, which reduced the number of needed parts. There were several holes at the end of the media cartridge that the "clicker" sealed when closed. When the approximate pressure was reached, the bypass is supposed to "click" open. Some people were skeptical that the mechanism worked as planned. Others were concerned that metal on metal didn't seal very well, or wouldn't open or close depending on conditions. This thread has some pics of the catridge: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002476#000000
 
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You're correct when you say that Wix has a plant in China. It is in Tianjin (60 miles SE of Bejing), and makes filters only for the Chinese market. Believe it or not, it costs more to manufacture an oil filter there than here, do to their import tarrifs.
 
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Y-P-W Thanks for the answer to my question.I have cut open my used filters for the last 15 years and had never seen one. Thanks
 
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One additional fine point filter guy. Even with the 3000 mi severe service OCI, the manufacturers suggest changing the filter every other oil change. That would make the; Severe service filter change interval = 6000 miles Standard service filter change interval = 15000 miles.(for my mitsu truck)
 

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Pete C. I did a training seminar in China on behalf of my old Company. Learned a couple words in mandarin. And found out a few interesting "facts" about some of the companies moving there. Such as various engine companies etc. lt2000 , you got you're answer. Sorry i've been traveling this week and don't have much time on the net. I'm in Kansas City at the mo... Winston..I believe my car manual says to change the filter and oil every change interval. Others may vary. If ,as a consumer, you want to change oil and leave contaminated oil in the filter and a media that has reached X % of it's service life because a manual says so..do it. I wouldn't. I would change the filter every time, personally. Again, filter companies work with engine companies to know their OCI change intervals for filters..as well as oil. It's not as if engine companies don't publish that info.. [Wink] Such as if brand X wanted to know what Kia's ( substitute any OEM name) OCI is, all they have to do is go down to a dealer and look at the manual to confirm. Which has been done before. Also, where do you think filter companies get OEM filters from for some European or Asian vehicles for testing...from the dealer.
 
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