E-core (so much for all the testing)

Gary Allan · May 7, 2005

quote:

Gary,

I was not trying to slam on Hastings. I think they are one of the best filters out there. But there is definitely a big quality difference in the Casite line. The media used was similar to what I am seeing in the low end Champions, very brittle after use. I don't know how long this filter was used but the oil was pretty dark colored. I am not implying to add and Hastings or Baldwin filter to a do not use list, just observing what I saw with one particular filter. Again, there was no actual torn media in the filter.

Exactly my point. You're dealing with a lowball filter there from Hastings. You were dealing, almost exclusively, with a low ball filter from Champ. If any durability issues are going to arrise, it will be with those filters, regardless of whose you choose. Now quality of manufacturing is a different issue. If Champ is all that lame, thoroughout their lines ..then M1, Bosch, and all the rest are just as much junk.

So, before I ditch all my ST filters ..or brand M1 and all the rest of Champ's lineup junk ..I'll wait and see if I run into any issues in those that I use and cut open. I would be truly interested if you find a remarkable decrease in defect rate after you've purged all the Warners from your recurring clientle. I would also be interested if the failure rate was commensurate with the cost difference of the NAPA over the Champ. You could probably then plug that $$ figure back into a Champ line that more reflects the quality of the Proline and get like results.

You're probably one of the only ethical quicklube owners out there...or at least the only one interested in these issues. The name of the game in high volume retail service is low costs. The market dictates your retail price. Hence the different providers of such market vendors shaves every nickel to be competitive. This works for your distributor as well as for business owners just like you. It all adds up ..and you'ld have a very hard time, without tremendous personal sacrifice, providing top shelf filters and still turn a decent profit.

So essentially you've stepped up in quality and you're paying for it. This has little bearing on what the average consumer can expect in their purchases. This isn't a comparison of consumer versus industrial, where it is truly a "pay me now..or pay me later" situation. It's one of consumer vs. commercial where you don't pay now ..and someone else pays later (in most cases ..so much so that profits obviously outstrip liabilities). Most here would not buy food service bacon either. It's not honey or maple cured and isn't the best tasting ..but a resturant owner that's slinging $0.99 breakfast specials to compete isn't going to go down the local grocery to buy the better stuff ..nor can he afford to be competitive using it in his business based on consumer demand for $0.99 breakfasts.

So I can't really find a reason to change my behaviors based on this discovery. You certainly had cause to, and in doing so, have my admiration for having scruples and the courage to back them in cash.

labman · May 7, 2005

So who has the guts to call him with the UPS tag? Come on now, is divorce that bad?

Gary Allan · May 8, 2005

quote:

I for one would like to see what a sampling of Lubeowner's used filters might look like on Gary Allan's test equipment. If the filter media has seperated would his gauges reflect that? For the filter with media that hasn't seperated how often is the filter in bypass?

It probably would since the highly dense PureOne filter (the dinky one) only results in about 3.5 PSID when new. I would imagine that the psid would be reduced to some water column reading (which I don't have gauges for).

The trouble is, you need to know you have a bad filter. You obviously can't open it up ahead of time to determine which one is defective. How many would lubeowner have to ship me to assure that I get a bad one ..and what are the odds of me running into one in 50 filters??

But sure, I believe it would be indicated with my little gauges. I'll certainly be able to determine if the current PureOne fails. It will continue to climb in psid until the bypass valve setting and then would be substantially reduced.

Now I can do the same test with Ecore filters ..but as it looks now, this test is going to take about a year to get through. It may be abreviated if it appears that the dinky filter shows no signs of insult due to accumulation over a decent number of miles. That may lead us to conclude that the same test with a larger filter would yield less impact/insult to the media ..but I don't really want to get side tracked right now. There's a plan in place that's pretty much moving along well. The worst thing that happens on this board in home grown tests is when someone sabotages their test by some deviation ..tainting the results and allowing the addition of speculation. Things like going to all the trouble to test an oil/filter combo for 10-15k and then adding some additive a few miles before the sample is taken. It's most certainly their right to do this ..but it frustrates the presentation of any meaningful data. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know what doesn't work. With a little help from some of my smarter pals, I can manage to compile some useful data for us all to benefit from.

I can do this on more than one vehicle ..but I'm tapped as far as resources for this sort of distraction. If anyone else would like to undertake an ecore test, great (somehow with the recent flurry of questionable quality issues ..I don't expect too many people to be jumping up and down saying "Me!! Me!!" with eager enthusiasm). So, unless we have any volunteers ..it will have to wait for a while ..but I would have no reservations in doing it.

Ugly3 · May 8, 2005

Gary Allen - The worst thing that happens on this board in home grown tests is when someone sabotages their test by some deviation ..tainting the results and allowing the addition of speculation. Things like going to all the trouble to test an oil/filter combo for 10-15k and then adding some additive a few miles before the sample is taken.

Could not agree more.

loudist · May 8, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

Maybe your under some misimpression that I work for Champ. I don't. I'm sales manager for a distributorship that sells primarily hydraulic filters.

AND

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
You'll have to take the plant tour...

Basically after the filter is fully assembled but not yet painted, Champ has an extra process whereby they will send air into the complete spin on filter and check for leaks. Either at the roll seam which is the rounded part around the edge of the filter that is the "seal" for the filter and for internal leaks.

When i've taken people on plant tours we would do two things. First there are "control" filters which will be put in the line to test the equipment to make sure it is working correctly. If there is "X" cc's of air leakage the machine will kick the filter out to a holding area. If the "control" filter makes it past the machine, then all filters will be tested by hand operation on different equipment.( in the same station area)

We would also deliberately turn the leaf spring upside down or leave it out before the filters can is seemed to show that internal problems will also fail the test.
( If you ever get a filter that rattles before you use it, chances are the spring is upside down , if it's the flat leaf spring type, or left out altogether. NEVER use a filter that rattles before you use it.)
I won't go into exactly how the test works because we do have other filter companies employee's who read this..

But this is one quality control reason why Champ has a lot of the OEM business they do.

You yourself purposely gave that impression.

If it came down to a choice of going to a filterguys shop or a lubeowners shop, it would be lubeowners every time.
Step off filterguy, you aren't qualified to challenge lubeowner.
Quit your posing.

Another case of a little knowledge being dangerous.

Big O Dave · May 9, 2005

So, then what do y'all think about Pintos now that we have the concensus on Vegas?

Seriously, as a former lube shop owner I applaud lubeowner's desire to give his customers a decent basic oil filter.

I personally believe that when you are buying the bottom-of-the-line of ANYTHING, you are getting something built to a price point, and you are getting what you pay for.

Most of the time, I repeat, MOST OF THE TIME, when you get a higher line product you also get what you pay for. There are exceptions, of course, and that is why this forum is so great, so we can separate the cream from the crap, as far as oil filters go.

I appreciate both those who put forth their findings AND the skeptics, because it keeps this place more honest and unbiased.

Thank you to all!

csandste · May 9, 2005

"Step off filterguy, you aren't qualified to challenge lubeowner.
Quit your posing."

Oh come-on now. First the GM expert gets bounced out and now this. I read these posts for information but also for controversy-- I know, we all have to get a life.

The truth may be out there somewhere but I for one am not bothered by the fact that Filter Guy had a connection to Champ. Of course that probably gives him a bias (just like Johnny favors Pennzoil), but it also gives him a knowledge base that the rest of us may lack.

Winston · May 9, 2005

Filter Guy is not always right, but he stays on "point." I don't understand why lubeowner does not address Filter Guys request for a visit, or why lubeowner does not provide the info on the filters that he sent to his distributor. I would love to hear Champ's warranty department explain the cause of all the failures.

Filter guy · May 9, 2005

Don't worry..i'm not going anywhere unless I get banned..lol

What I find funny is that I mentioned my credentials when I first came to this forum and have been honest and up front about it.

I haven't worked for Champ since early 2000. Still have a few friends there. Still have a few contacts at other filter companies as Donaldson, Fram, Baldwin and some smaller filter companies were my accounts at various times.

Still met other reps of the other filter companies through my stint on the Filter Council.

But boy are some going to be surprised at Ford when I went to their Dearborn engineering department and gave a 2 hour talk with Q&A on oil filters to the engineers. They must have really took me for a dupe.

Not to mention those in Ashland Kentucky when I went to Valvolines world headquarters and did a training session for them.

Or those Mobil people who came to my 3 day seminar at the plant.

Yep I sure don't know much....

I've done seminars for 20-150 person groups around the globe. From transport ministers to people who owned fleets of cabs in attendence. From having the Chinese government film me, to having people on guard in some other countries.

So I wouldn't buy a filter from me...

Fact is sales increased every country I went to after I left. I was invited back everytime.
But my seminar was not at the expense of other filter companies. That's not how we sold. I explained how Champ built filters and what made them unique and better. And by not picking on the competition and explaining the differences, the seminars were well received.

Which is the same thing i've done in here when asked about brand X. I've said before all filters built here in the USA are good filters. It's up to you to find the one that is right for how you drive and what you expect performance wise out of a filter.

Anyone who questions what I have posted about what I did while at Champ..pm me and i'll give you names there to follow up with. Or you can call my mom..

I'm still involved in filtration where I work now. Just not automotive engine filters.

I don't claim to know everything, but I know where to go and who to ask when I need to get straight answers .....

loudist · May 9, 2005

Yep... a sales weasle.
I guess that jaw dropping presentation at Ford resulted in them having Purolator make motorcraft filters instead of champion.
You have a salesmans knowledge about filters, but can't hold a candle to a shop owner that deals with a pretty high number of filters daily.
Thats called experience, I'm going to still back lubeowner on this one.
lubeowners job isn't to beta test products for QC and report back to champ and make sure they do their jobs. Its to provide a quality service with quality parts.
I do wish there were more that had his integrity.
Sales weasles included.

Gary Allan · May 9, 2005

countdown to thread lock......

We're getting a little personal here..

Now please understand .. this in no way alters my board-wide availabilty for abuse. (visions of Monty Python, "you low life, disgusting.." "WAIT, I'm here for a argument!!" "Oh, so sorry. Arguments are two doors down on the left.")

Bio-T · May 9, 2005

This is getting personal, time for a rest.

labman · May 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Big O Dave:
So, then what do y'all think about Pintos now that we have the concensus on Vegas?

snip....

What consensus? The Vega was a very innovative car, that we learned a lot from. One of the lessons was that English or French QC was not good enough. Funny, GM learned timing belts are a bad idea and went back to chains, while the ''high quality'' foreign nameplates are still using them.

As for the Pinto, another POS, the only thing it taught us was that people are stupid enough to buy a car that is half metric and half standard.

I have learned a lot from ''sales weasels''. Many of them are highly trained and have a much better understanding of things over all than many engineers that are ignorant of anything outside their little corner. The ''owner'' of any business that is around very long is heavily involved in sales. Can filter guy prove he once worked for Champ? Can Lube owner prove he actually owns the lube shop? Can I prove I own a Lab, or at least not without compromising my privacy in ways I am not going to?

So lets keep reading the posts.

lewk · May 9, 2005

surely we are all intelligent enough to realize no poster here is willing to eat the cost for a double blind filter study/test. anecedotal evidence should suffice in this matter. how can lubeowner be any more objective? shame him into a subjective test! let us remain cordial. 4th ammend. applies here as well.

Big O Dave · May 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by labman:

quote:

Originally posted by Big O Dave:
So, then what do y'all think about Pintos now that we have the concensus on Vegas?

snip....

Click to expand...

What consensus? The Vega was a very innovative car, that we learned a lot from. One of the lessons was that English or French QC was not good enough. Funny, GM learned timing belts are a bad idea and went back to chains, while the ''high quality'' foreign nameplates are still using them.

As for the Pinto, another POS, the only thing it taught us was that people are stupid enough to buy a car that is half metric and half standard.

Holy cow!! I simply sat there for two minutes thinking about a cute opening line for my post. I didn't think about all of the deeper meanings...

I'll be more careful in the future

Filter guy · May 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by loudist:

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

Maybe your under some misimpression that I work for Champ. I don't. I'm sales manager for a distributorship that sells primarily hydraulic filters.

Click to expand...

AND

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:
You'll have to take the plant tour...

Basically after the filter is fully assembled but not yet painted, Champ has an extra process whereby they will send air into the complete spin on filter and check for leaks. Either at the roll seam which is the rounded part around the edge of the filter that is the "seal" for the filter and for internal leaks.

When i've taken people on plant tours we would do two things. First there are "control" filters which will be put in the line to test the equipment to make sure it is working correctly. If there is "X" cc's of air leakage the machine will kick the filter out to a holding area. If the "control" filter makes it past the machine, then all filters will be tested by hand operation on different equipment.( in the same station area)

We would also deliberately turn the leaf spring upside down or leave it out before the filters can is seemed to show that internal problems will also fail the test.
( If you ever get a filter that rattles before you use it, chances are the spring is upside down , if it's the flat leaf spring type, or left out altogether. NEVER use a filter that rattles before you use it.)
I won't go into exactly how the test works because we do have other filter companies employee's who read this..

But this is one quality control reason why Champ has a lot of the OEM business they do.

Click to expand...

You yourself purposely gave that impression.

If it came down to a choice of going to a filterguys shop or a lubeowners shop, it would be lubeowners every time.
Step off filterguy, you aren't qualified to challenge lubeowner.
Quit your posing.

Another case of a little knowledge being dangerous.

Good one..

Made my day..

turbochem · May 9, 2005

quote:

You yourself purposely gave that impression.

Except for the times Filter Guy stated he used to work for Champion......

If you've just started reading the threads associated with this "saga", you might have missed it....

quote:

If it came down to a choice of going to a filterguys shop or a lubeowners shop, it would be lubeowners every time

Does filter guy even have a shop? I don't think I'll make it to Oregon for my oil change......

quote:

Step off filterguy, you aren't qualified to challenge lubeowner.
Quit your posing.

??? What are the qualifications? It's a little like peer review on this board.....it's hard to know who's legit when we're all behind faux screen names. It's OK for people to be skeptical......

quote:

Another case of a little knowledge being dangerous.

You said it.......but I don't think you meant it the way I'm thinking.......

quote:

You have a salesmans knowledge about filters, but can't hold a candle to a shop owner that deals with a pretty high number of filters daily.

I'm not buying the "shop owner cuts open lots o' filters = intimate knowledge of filters"

I can cut open a TV set, doesn't mean I can judge quality or how well it works by what it looks like inside.....

That being said, I would like lubeowner to post more of his finds...they are interesting. A little "back and forth" is a good thing.........as long as each side can back up what they say.....

Filter guy · May 9, 2005

loudist

Another great post.

I've only been in filtration since 1982. So I don't have to much experience.

I've been to many a fleets shop in my heavy duty days. Seen many a "lubeowner" in my day.

The problem is, and i've said this before, one can look at something and lay blame. Easy to do.
But unless one has the facts of the situation you are commenting from a lack of knowledge or understanding.

To give you an example: Next time you drive by a car accident..could you take a picture..go to court and tell everyone exactly why it took place? Was someone on their cell phone, adjusting the stereo, did the brakes fail, throttle lock, yet just from visually seeing something you know what caused the problem.

Which gets back to lubeowners pics. And it gets tiring asking for basic information instead of just posting some picture and everyone playing Perry Mason and agreeing with the first one who criticizes.

I will ask this question...lubeowner has claimed that some of the filters he cuts open has "brittle" media. Anyone cut open a new filter and think the media is brittle? Did if feel brittle then?

So something during the filters use has changed the media..if in fact it is "brittle" as claimed.

Yet, when he posts that..people in here post..I don't want a brittle media filter. Maybe the real answer is..I wouldn't buy the car that filter was used on.

There isn't one filter manufacturer that uses media in their filters where they expect the media to turn brittle. Yet, lubeowner has made that claim based on what he "sees". He wants to blame the filter. If you want to join his crusade, go ahead.

Filter media suppliers don't supply crap media. Filter companies have done extensive testing on media before a particular media is used. I know from Champs perspective they have rejected media which doesn't meet their spec and they test every incoming lot of media. So it's reasonable to assume other filter companies do as well.

I personally have every confidence in the media for every filter brand.

Winston · May 9, 2005

quote:

There isn't one filter manufacturer that uses media in their filters where they expect the media to turn brittle.

Isn't all paper filter media going to turn brittle eventually? Isn't that one reason the mfg's have a time and mileage replacement interval? Maybe failed filters with brittle media are a sign that they are too old (in years).

labman · May 9, 2005

Good point Winston.

I am sure the oil filter media is not of archival quality. Otherwise paper eventually gets old and brittle. I am sure hot oil does nothing to increase its life. Since oil filters are made to be used and discarded quickly, it would be a waste of money to select too long lived materials. Lubeowner is definitely reporting more failures than typical of what others here have seen. Why? Is it possible his distributor is foisting some old stock off on him? He installs a ''new'' Warner, and after a reasonable interval, replaces it, and cuts it open, and finds damaged media?

Anybody remember any posts with Ecore filters or cartridge elements having brittle media? We know that all of them were manufactured fairly recently.

It is true we have little to sort out fakes, liars, or pretenders here, and we know the net is full of them. Trying to do so by whether we like their posts, will not bring out the truth.

Maybe buying up a 5 year supply of the non clicker, non Ecore ST 3950's or anything else, would be a dumb idea.

E-core (so much for all the testing)

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