I find your lack of understanding of what I'm saying equally entertaining. We do have a Honda/Acura spokesman quoted above noting that the reason for the no-early-dump recommendation is the presence of dissolved or suspended assembly lube. There may or may not be more to it (engineering, marketing, political, legal, who knows...). I don't know that and I haven't made any representations that I know what Honda's engineers and execs are thinking. If I bought a new Honda, I'd be inclined to follow the recommendations of those who designed and built the thing. Good grief, where are all the scrap yards full of Hondas that died early deaths from being ground up by manufacturing debris. . .
Honda Factory Fill - BUSTED
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I find your lack of understanding of what I'm saying equally entertaining. We do have a Honda/Acura spokesman quoted above noting that the reason for the no-early-dump recommendation is the presence of dissolved or suspended assembly lube. There may or may not be more to it (engineering, marketing, political, legal, who knows...). I don't know that and I haven't made any representations that I know what Honda's engineers and execs are thinking. If I bought a new Honda, I'd be inclined to follow the recommendations of those who designed and built the thing. Good grief, where are all the scrap yards full of Hondas that died early deaths from being ground up by manufacturing debris. . .
Read carefully Cicero, I never claimed the result is some sort of magic brew as you claim. I merely stated that Honda has explained their no-early-dump recommendation, clearly. And they have. For whatever reason (speculate all you want about that), they want you to keep the factory fill-plus-assembly lube in your crankcase until the prescribed first change.
You started this thread with an invalid argument. You made what's commonly known as an "Appeal to Authority". Appeal to Authority arguments aren't necessarily invalid, but they often are, they're almost always suspect because if the point being argued is actually valid, there's almost always a better way to support it.
Appeals to Authority are made with the hope that people will be impressed with and persuaded by the association with the authority used. In your case, you built up an image of the knowledgible old timer who decided to favor you by sharing his infinite wisdom. Strange how we breeze by all the important details, such as his training, experience, or other qualification to speak. You drop in a hazy reference to “Honda Racing” as you “realize” he’s someone involved in it. Well, if he’s got the qualification to speak, you should have asked him what they were. For all we know, he might just be the guy who sweeps the floors and likes talking about cars.
Appeals to Authority are suspect because they are usually used by folks who have nothing else to back up what they say. You want to believe the point you’re arguing, but there are no facts to support it, so instead, we get a hazy argument to the effect that, “the impressive guy says so, so it must be true.” Such arguments are especially suspect when the “impressive guy’s” qualifications (and sometimes even existence) are totally beyond verification.
Why bother making an Appeal to Authority if you have real facts to back up what you claim? You’ve claimed that Honda’s recommendation to leave oil in to the first normal change is invalid (a "myth" which is now "busted"). But all you’ve offered in support of that claim is the weakest of Appeals to Authority. I’m sorry, but until I see some provable facts to suggest something other than the Honda recommendation is a better approach, I’d go with Honda on this.
"Myth" not busted, not even close...
The search feature works just fine if you use it correctly.
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Although I agree with you, it is ONLY the past performance of Hondas in longevity that allows the "blind faith" acceptance of the practice. No other vehicle retains that doctrine of adherence to the factory recommendation. Everyone ditches the factory fill ASAPracticallyP in all domestic ..and most foreign designed engines ...EXCEPT HONDA.
Hence, I'd say, the opposition to doing this is not atypical. So much so... that adhering to the factory recommendation appears to be the irrational choice (not really) ...or rather ..that the rest of existance in this matter ..is mass hysteria.
In short, would you put so much weight on insisting on ..or defending the practice of ..this "do as you're told"..if it was a Chevy??
The people who designed and built the thing don't write the manuals, and don't have approval over the content of the manuals.
You have absolutely no idea what the engine designers' recommendations are because nobody gets to talk to them, and any public spokesperson, regardless of technical knowledge, is speaking the coherent company line.
You're base assumption is still that this is an engineering related recommendation.
Which I still find entertaining.
BlueWorld,
My base assumption is that it is a Honda recommendation and may or may not be engineering related, as ekpolk stated earlier as well.
Gary has a good point that envelopes my thoughts.
My base assumption is that it is a Honda recommendation and may or may not be engineering related, as ekpolk stated earlier as well.
Gary has a good point that envelopes my thoughts.
Honest, Ekpolk. It doesn't work right for me. Maybe it's my browser or something. It will return every single post on a thread instead of just the thread titles. If you say it's working like it used to then I'm stumped.
Cicero:
I'll give it a try again myself to see if I can duplicate that behavior. I last used it a week or so ago, and didn't see that. It's pretty clear that there are still a few wrinkles to be ironed out with the new format. Perhaps one of those on-the-loose gremlins is messing with the Search feature.
I'll give it a try again myself to see if I can duplicate that behavior. I last used it a week or so ago, and didn't see that. It's pretty clear that there are still a few wrinkles to be ironed out with the new format. Perhaps one of those on-the-loose gremlins is messing with the Search feature.
Ahhhhh Blue, by the time we're done here, we'll both have blinded one another with all these fingers in the eyes...
Are you an insider with Honda? Please share with us the information you have from Honda which establishes that, "[t]he people who designed and built the thing don't write the manuals, and don't have approval over the content of the manuals." Your statement to prove. It's very interesting to read the eight pages of the linked TQI document -- obviously, these folks do have some idea about the technical workings of their products.
Next, you provide us this: "You have absolutely no idea what the engine designers' recommendations are because nobody gets to talk to them, and any public spokesperson, regardless of technical knowledge, is speaking the coherent company line." Well, unless you are a Honda insider, that statement would apply to you with equal force. Therefore, it is quite clear that you too have absolutely no idea of the basis for the Honda recommendation either, and no informed basis for claiming that it's other than technical. We can surmise all day about other possibilities, but that's just, well, surmising.
You’re entertained that some of us suspect that there might be a technical basis for Honda’s no-early-dump recommendation? Well, at least we have things such as the Honda/Acura service document, linked above, in other words, some evidence. You (and the OP) have provided no proof at all to support the proposition that Honda is making this recommendation for non-technical reasons.* Which position ought to be more "entertaining"?
* Actually, there might be non-technical reasons. I’ve got an open mind. If one of you would provide some convincing evidence to this effect, that would be nice.
Look. Its pretty simple to me. What is so special about the Honda Fill? I want the proof. The moly mixing thing is just plain silly. Don't most car engines have assembly lube in them from the factory? And if that makes me silly, then so be it. By the way, I have an '04 Accord V6 that the oil was changed out before 3K and it runs super, uses zero make-up and gets better then advertised mpg's. This Si is "special" to me and will be the last car I ever own. For better or worse, the oil is coming out this weekend at 650 + - 50 miles. I'll post all UOA's as long as I am able. Will probably run Havoline 5W30 or the GTX in case there is a moly factor in play, then MAYBE switch to M1 once I see how the maintenance minder thing works. I might like my UOA's of dino oil and never go sythetic.
Thanks to all, pro and con. It's nice to have a stimulating thread once and awhile and even if you guys are right... I won't hold that against you.
Thanks to all, pro and con. It's nice to have a stimulating thread once and awhile and even if you guys are right... I won't hold that against you.
With you buying a Si, I wouldn't imagine you can be too old. Why the Civic as the last car? Are you shipping off overseas or something?
Of course, it begs the question of if you will be doing a UOA on the factory fill?
Of course, it begs the question of if you will be doing a UOA on the factory fill?
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Sure. Just not as much. Most of your factory fills for your Asian based engines have around 1000ppm of moly. Chevy ..100-300ppm.
They must use wider brushes to apply it at the engine plant. Maybe they got a real deal on it ..while "loss control" prohibits using too much in the UAW plants.
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With you buying a Si, I wouldn't imagine you can be too old. Why the Civic as the last car? Are you shipping off overseas or something?
Of course, it begs the question of if you will be doing a UOA on the factory fill?
WELL over 50, and let's just say anyday I get up is a good day, and the Grand kids love the car. I went cruising Friday with them and rap doesn't sound too bad with a subwoofer Ka-Booming the car till it vibrates. What a hoot.
I thought a UOA of the first oil was meaningless. If you think it would have value to me, I'm game to do it.
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Sure. Just not as much. Most of your factory fills for your Asian based engines have around 1000ppm of moly. Chevy ..100-300ppm.
...
So if I did an UOA at 500-1000 miles it will probably show X-1000ppm Moly?
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I just did a check of the UOA section using "factory" as the key word in the subject. Except for the Titan V8 ..all the Asian based engines had around 1000 ppm. One Accura has 398ppm @ 10k miles. I didn't pay too much attention to the mileage on the 1000ppm engines.
Take a l@@k for yourself. There's only about half a dozen in the past year (I think).
Take a l@@k for yourself. There's only about half a dozen in the past year (I think).
I need to stay out of your courtroom, EK..
Remind me to always call you "Sir, yes Sir", ya hear?
JHZR2
Staff member
Cicero,
Listen to me, I won't lead you astray...
What kind of oil came in your engine? conventional, right? OK, well the rule of thumb that Ive heard is that regardless of how great the manufacturing is (or isnt), when an engine is stocked with syn from the factory, it has been set up (and hopefully qualified) for synthetic break-in. For engines that do not come with syn, generally it is good to repeat the first few oil changes with a high quality dino oil.
Now, we all know that Hondas like moly at initial operation, so the answer is easy:
-Pull a UOA at the point youre at right now. Drive easy until you get the results.
-Have Terry Dyson analyze the results. UOA is the closest to a surefire way to know what is going on in the lubrication system, as well as many other functions of your engine. Let him direct you as to the drain point, based upon initial wear and specifications pertaining to what is best for the engine.
-At the correct change point, use havoline of the correct grade (Id run 10w-30, if I were you, and the temps were right), for an OCI of 1000 miles, to ensure that there is a quick turnover of remnants of wear items in there.
-Run the replaced oil for 3000 miles
-Drain and pic your permanent oil. If youre moving to M1, Id use the first OCI of M1 for swapping of fluids, and replace it after 3000 miles, then move to the correct OCI for your specified service.
-Consider running LC for general cleanliness and oxidative resistance.
I hope this helps.
JMH
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I need to stay out of your courtroom, EK..
Remind me to always call you "Sir, yes Sir", ya hear?
No! You want to be in my courtroom -- sitting at the same table with me! Before too long (I hope...), I'll be back in private practice, up for hire! Ooops, is that unauthorized advertising? Or just bad humor... Besides, if you've hired me, then I have to call you "sir"!
EK Polk.
The Quintessential Gambini..
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