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LONG incredible story. ...Nothing incredible or even new there. You could have just searched BITOG and learned the same thing.
Thank you for your thoughtful help.
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As far as searching goes...The search engine on the new BITOG doesn't work very well for me. Anybody else have that problem? You can get 200 responses, all having to do with the same four of five threads. Search 2006 or 2007 Honda Civic Si and see what you get....Civic Si maybe... see the problem?
I'm with you.. In comparison to the old search feature this one is severely lacking.
Honda Factory Fill - BUSTED
- Thread starter Cicero
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Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Straight from Honda Service News. Courtesy of Gregster at Drive Accord Forum. Scroll down a bit and read about Honda's FF. http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060800.PDF
He was a second-rate C&W artist, too...
Why ~wouldn't~ you add ARX to a new engine? Debris, break-in shards, hot-spots...added lubricity and cleanliness while isolating any and all break-in debris. Seems worth $5.
Anyone who knows me knows that the Buick 3.8V6 is the only engine GM makes that I think highly of! I will say this though they have to keep "Jerry Rigging" the equipment to keep turning them out. I have seen twine and rope and coat hangers etc... at the plant holding things together on some of the old tooling. GM wanted to get rid of the engine years ago but marketing would not let them. GM does not want to spend more money on new equipment for the 3.8. Marketing told the rest of GM that public opion was too high and demand too high for the 3.8 for them to phase it out so soon. So supposedly we are going to have the 3.8 until 2009. GM wanted to replace it with the high content V6 but their are too many older GM buyers that still demand the 3.8V6.So for once marketing did something positive!!
Their are 12-14 difference block variations of the Buick 3.8 used globaly. GM has liscensed a rear drive 3.8V6 block configuration to a Russian SUV manufacture "ARO" I think is their name.Their are also provideing the techno assistance for the induction and ignition system for it as well.
If ever you can find one for a decent price the old 3.8 Turbo charged rear drive blocks are GREAT in compact Toyota 4x4's!!! They fit like they were made to order and have a lot more power then the old 22RE I4's had!!They are also about the same weight as Toyota's I4 so the handeling is not affected. Most people use Chevy or Ford V8's due to lower cost and easier parts sourceing.
Their are 12-14 difference block variations of the Buick 3.8 used globaly. GM has liscensed a rear drive 3.8V6 block configuration to a Russian SUV manufacture "ARO" I think is their name.Their are also provideing the techno assistance for the induction and ignition system for it as well.
If ever you can find one for a decent price the old 3.8 Turbo charged rear drive blocks are GREAT in compact Toyota 4x4's!!! They fit like they were made to order and have a lot more power then the old 22RE I4's had!!They are also about the same weight as Toyota's I4 so the handeling is not affected. Most people use Chevy or Ford V8's due to lower cost and easier parts sourceing.
Bingo. I've seen first hand the UAW getting in the way of innovation on the assembly line. GM's not going to spend any money on retooling unless they can make either increase the runrate or eliminate some labor. It goes both ways though: In a perfect world you could automate more of the processes and use the slack labor to increase the quality. What normally happens is that they just put more of them in the job pool and they can get paid unbelievable amounts of money to watch TV.
Interesting. What makes the SI engine so unique vs the other Honda engines which recommend 5W-20?
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Interesting. What makes the SI engine so unique vs the other Honda engines which recommend 5W-20?
Hotter running engine perhaps? The Si redlines at 8,000 RPM's. Doesn't the S2000 also use 5W30?
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From the new version of Battlestar Galactica:
This has all happened before ...and will happen again.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Great series, not a kid's show like the old one. Very DARK Very Intriging, Very much hope this is NOT where mankind is heading.
Thanks. Have seen this before. It never says it's a unique special oil does it?
"Don't change...because it looks dark...To ensure proper break-in, the factory-fill engine oil needs to remain...blah blah."
I speculate that they want THEIR HONDA FF oil to stay so they KNOW that the engine's oil was not replaced with something inappropriate or perhaps of inferior quality.
Understatement of the year.
The service bulletins clearly spell out Honda's reasons for it's recommendations. You want to believe something different, fine, but I've yet to see one shred of credible evidence by anyone over the past 4 years to invalidate those service bulletins.
Please quote those service bulletins. Do they say it's special oil? I really have never seen that and I really would like to see that in print. Here's another understatement...You have no idea what the Honda factory fill is or isn't. Do you?
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Page 180 of my '07 Honda Civic manual says, "Do not change the oil until the schedualed maintenance time." Which is not a distance for this car but a "computed" interval. It goes on to say "You should also follow these recommendations with an overhauled or exchanged engine..."
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Interesting. What makes the SI engine so unique vs the other Honda engines which recommend 5W-20?
Hotter running engine perhaps? The Si redlines at 8,000 RPM's. Doesn't the S2000 also use 5W30?
The S2000 uses 10W30 (recommended) with 5W40 listed as an alternate weight if extreme climate conditions warrant its use. This is for all MY's.
Count 15 posts up from your last. He did. There's nothing complicated or mysterious about this. The Honda engineers, who I'll presume have some understanding of their products, don't want you dumping the oil that has dissolved, and afterwards contains, the moly-rich assembly lube.
What oil is it? It's an SM 5w-20 (except for Si models, where it's without doubt a 5w-30). Yep, those SM oils are dangerous stuff. Honda must want to install a lot of new engines prematurely, as their engineers just don't know what they're talking about.
The premise of your original post is completely flawed. You built what you believed is an impressive image of the old timer (if you were impressed, that's perfectly fine, but that carries zero weight as proof of anything). Then you attribute to the impressive old-timer, authoritative statements that aren't otherwise verifiable. The "myth" may be busted for you, but don't expect others to come flocking in, persuaded because you report hearing something from an impressive old timer. This, by the way, is exactly why the courts enforce rules against the use of hearsay -- others are deprived of the opportunity to challenge the original source of the info to test it's reliability.
Did the "old timer" stay at a Holiday Inn last night too?
At TQI, does the factory-fill engine oil look less
like Texas Tea and more like Oklahoma Crude?
Don’t worry, there’s nothing wrong with the
engine. The engine oil looks that way because of
molybdenum (that’s “moly” for short), a special
lubricant applied by the factory to critical engine
components during assembly.
When the engine is test-run, that molybdenum
mixes with the engine oil, turning it a dark
metallic color often within the first 5 minutes of
running. And just how dark that engine oil gets
seems to vary between vehicle models, engine
types, and engine assembly plants.
What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it
looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid
level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the
factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the
engine until the first scheduled maintenance
interval.
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There you go. You guys are unbelievable at times.
Ok. Here there it is. Where does it say anything about the moly mixing with the oil to make a special brew? That's your assumption. Maybe I should be impressed with you, some guy I never met who I have no idea what you know or don't over some guy that races Hondas at the dealership I will service my vehicle at and no one was challenging him with any service bulletins. Maybe you guys need to buy some assembly lube and add a bit of it to your oil to improve it. Your new additive trick perhaps?
I believe you are the ones dealing in assumptions and lack facts. Just because Honda says this doesn't make it so....EVEN IF TRUE...where's the beef? It it still goes back to my question, ah...speculation...that maybe all it is is an insurance policy for Honda that a customer doesn't put some garbage oil/wrong oil into the engine the critical first few thousand miles.
Now I'll ask you, since you want to wade in here, where is the proof that the oil is special or that Honda intends the Moly to mix in to the oil for special break in advantages?
At least one thing has ben proven to me. I got better replies by challenging your and other's "holy moly mantras" then I did asking a basic help and advice question in the first place or run the broken down search feature. The answers were all over the lot if you care to research that thread. Some criptic and funny, others not. I never got a concensus answer about the "break in oil". Perhaps BITOG needs a rating system that says...This guy knows his stuff, this guy does not. You can put me in the "does not know" column. I thought you mega-posters were the champs. Another bad assumption on my part. And the search engine still lacks horsepower. Maybe it needs some Moly.
To answer your question: "Where does it say anything about the moly mixing with the oil to make a special brew?"
From the Service News:
"When the engine is test-run, that molybdenum
mixes with the engine oil, turning it a dark
metallic color often within the first 5 minutes of
running."
You also asked: "where is the proof that the oil is special or that Honda intends the Moly to mix in to the oil for special break in advantages?"
From the Service News that you quoted: "What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it
looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid
level. To ensure proper engine break-in , the
factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the
engine until the first scheduled maintenance
interval."
But hey, if you want to run soybean oil in it that's fine with me.
You said: "Just because Honda says this doesn't make it so" but just a few posts above you asked for proof from Honda.
From the Service News:
"When the engine is test-run, that molybdenum
mixes with the engine oil, turning it a dark
metallic color often within the first 5 minutes of
running."
You also asked: "where is the proof that the oil is special or that Honda intends the Moly to mix in to the oil for special break in advantages?"
From the Service News that you quoted: "What’s really important to remember here is this:
Don’t change the factory-fill engine oil because it
looks dark; just make sure it’s at the right fluid
level. To ensure proper engine break-in , the
factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the
engine until the first scheduled maintenance
interval."
But hey, if you want to run soybean oil in it that's fine with me.
You said: "Just because Honda says this doesn't make it so" but just a few posts above you asked for proof from Honda.
benjamming, thanks for posting all that AGAIN! I was just about to do the same.
I find it amazing how many people read what they want to read, simialar to hearing what they want to hear. Then post questions clearly answered many times over in this thread and in previous threads when there are VERY clear statments of fact from more than one source. And the source is the manufacture, stating the same thing over and over. Honda adds special factory fill oil, and to leave it in until the first recomended OIC.
Cicero, please dont get mad if you cant find out or figure out what that "specail factory fill oil" is. Reversing your own logic...just because YOU dont believe it, or dont know what it is...doesnt make it a mystery or untrue. Fact is, Honda gives very specific, very clear recomendations, that if you dont want to follow...then dont. (or dont buy a Honda! lol)
I find it amazing how many people read what they want to read, simialar to hearing what they want to hear. Then post questions clearly answered many times over in this thread and in previous threads when there are VERY clear statments of fact from more than one source. And the source is the manufacture, stating the same thing over and over. Honda adds special factory fill oil, and to leave it in until the first recomended OIC.
Cicero, please dont get mad if you cant find out or figure out what that "specail factory fill oil" is. Reversing your own logic...just because YOU dont believe it, or dont know what it is...doesnt make it a mystery or untrue. Fact is, Honda gives very specific, very clear recomendations, that if you dont want to follow...then dont. (or dont buy a Honda! lol)
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