Stellantis Propulsion Engineer Interview About Their New Hurricane Engine

[edyvw]

How many years have they been making the Hemi and they still have problems with them. Design is one thing...execution is another.

Of course. However, this is ground up design where Chrysler is not sole designer.

 

[Wat_MPG]

There is a Hurricane crate engine that exceeds 1000 horsepower, featuring upgraded components in comparison to the high-output (HO) version of the Hurricane engine. This means that the Hurricane engine that's bolted in the Jeep Wagoneer and will ship with the new Dodge Charger does not quite match the legendary status of the 2JZ engine. It will be interesting to see how many enthusiasts attempt to further tune these engines, which will come in the 2025 Dodge Charger, and potentially exceed their limits. Only time will tell how these modifications will pan out.

I was able to squeeze about 300 more hp out of my 6.2L with no mods to the engine internals. Reliably as well.

We’ll know the limits of the RHO engine soon enough. Lol

 

[OVERKILL]

That is true for the 5.7 and 6.4; both eat cams with what appears to be low oil pressure and flow.

The 6.2 does not have this problem. It also has a higher volume oil pump.

Jesus this myth has grown legs. It has nothing to do with oil pressure or flow, it's a materials problem with the lifters, GM and Ford both have the same problem, GM to an even higher degree because their AFM lifter design is more prone to failure. This is why the lifters have been redesigned several times.

And yes, there have been 6.2's that have eaten lifters as well. The issue is by far the most common with the 5.7L because it is produced in the highest numbers and the engines accrue the most hours.

 

[Silverado12]

Yeah, you would think if it's an oiling problem you would hear knocking from the hydraulic lifters not getting enough pressure or at least on startup.

 

[Wat_MPG]

Jesus this myth has grown legs. It has nothing to do with oil pressure or flow, it's a materials problem with the lifters, GM and Ford both have the same problem, GM to an even higher degree because their AFM lifter design is more prone to failure. This is why the lifters have been redesigned several times.

And yes, there have been 6.2's that have eaten lifters as well. The issue is by far the most common with the 5.7L because it is produced in the highest numbers and the engines accrue the most hours.

I’ll just agree to disagree with you on this.

GM and Ford failures have nothing to do with this conversation.

There’s tons of reputable hemi builders that have the same beliefs I do. I’ve been in the hemi game for a while.

Take this video, for example:

 

[Invisible]

Yeah, you would think if it's an oiling problem you would hear knocking from the hydraulic lifters not getting enough pressure or at least on startup.

Over 50K on our 5.7 HEMI, no issues, running M1 FS 0W-40 in it. The only time I managed to make the lifters click was when I let the truck sit for two weeks and then changed the oil and filter without starting the engine first. It took about 30 seconds for the lifters to fill with oil. However, that's an extreme example. Other than that, they never click. Also had the passenger side broken manifold bolts replaced, all nine of them, along with the manifold, with OEM parts.

The HEMI oiling issue is a myth. "ReIgnited" is capitalizing on the HEMI "myths" to get followers and views. That's how he makes a living. It's a good idea to talk to experienced engine builders who work with HEMIs. They will tell you that the HEMI lifters get oil via the pushrods. After all, it's not a lawn mower engine...

GM, Ford, and FCA (yes, FCA still exists; it's owned by Stellantis, which makes me think of Stargate SG1) all have issues with their lifters. That's because they use Chinese suppliers. There are quality control issues with these lifters, specifically improper materials and hardening. Admitting to these issues would result in lawsuits that these guys, as big as they are, could not possibly win. FCA is not even trying to hide their presence on automotive forums. However, I'm convinced that all three of them have people working the forums. It's not a far-fetched idea that they also disseminate bad information to create controversy and prevent people from converging on a single idea about what's wrong with these lifters and engines. It's much cheaper for these companies to hide under the guise of anonymity than to admit liability for being cheap and greedy. Yes, I'm sure they would never stoop so low, lol.

 

[Wat_MPG]

Over 50K on our 5.7 HEMI, no issues, running M1 FS 0W-40 in it. The only time I managed to make the lifters click was when I let the truck sit for two weeks and then changed the oil and filter without starting the engine first. It took about 30 seconds for the lifters to fill with oil. However, that's an extreme example. Other than that, they never click. Also had the passenger side broken manifold bolts replaced, all nine of them, along with the manifold, with OEM parts.

The HEMI oiling issue is a myth. "ReIgnited" is capitalizing on the HEMI "myths" to get followers and views. That's how he makes a living. It's a good idea to talk to experienced engine builders who work with HEMIs. They will tell you that the HEMI lifters get oil via the pushrods. After all, it's not a lawn mower engine...

GM, Ford, and FCA (yes, FCA still exists; it's owned by Stellantis, which makes me think of Stargate SG1) all have issues with their lifters. That's because they use Chinese suppliers. There are quality control issues with these lifters, specifically improper materials and hardening. Admitting to these issues would result in lawsuits that these guys, as big as they are, could not possibly win. FCA is not even trying to hide their presence on automotive forums. However, I'm convinced that all three of them have people working the forums. It's not a far-fetched idea that they also disseminate bad information to create controversy and prevent people from converging on a single idea about what's wrong with these lifters and engines. It's much cheaper for these companies to hide under the guise of anonymity than to admit liability for being cheap and greedy. Yes, I'm sure they would never stoop so low, lol.

You don't hear about FCA lifters failing at 3K or less like GM does. That's the difference. 5.7 and 6.4 Hemis eat cams due to excessive idling and they exhibit these failures after some time of engine usage. This is documented and proven. Sure there are a few isolated cases of early on lifter failure on the Hemi, but it is nowhere near the GM fiasco.

Ford doesn't have the lifter issue nearly as much as their cam phaser issues as of late.

 

[OVERKILL]

I’ll just agree to disagree with you on this.

GM and Ford failures have nothing to do with this conversation.

They do, because they all have the same problem: lifter failure

Why do you think the earlier HEMI's didn't have this problem? The engines received new lifters when VCT was added to the engine, which is when we started seeing the problem crop-up.

There’s tons of reputable hemi builders that have the same beliefs I do. I’ve been in the hemi game for a while.

Take this video, for example:

This sounds like the "Uncle Tony" mythos unfortunately (I'm not watching the video, this topic has been discussed several times on here including with a forensic analysis by member @TeamZero who is an FCA tech and actually shows you the failure mechanism with pictures).

Think about it rationally. If it was an oil delivery problem, every single one of them would fail, and they sure wouldn't be going 200,000 miles before it happened. But that's not how it works. A small percentage of them experience lifter failure, some of them extremely early in life, others at 200,000+ miles. This extreme variability is due to the mechanism by which failure occurs, which is due to improper hardening of the roller or pin in the lifter, which, depending on the defect, could be severe, and happen very early on, or minor, in which case it takes hundreds of thousands of miles to happen. There's a spectrum there.

The issue was attempted to be addressed in 2016 with a lifter update, and then again in 2019 with another lifter update. The 2016 and earlier engines, particularly 2010/2011/2012 seem to be the most prone.

 

[Fishstyx]

It's been my observation, and maybe I'm wrong, that in most engines you get the better fuel economy with say 0W-20 only up until the oil and engine come up to operating temperature. At operating temperature there isn't much fuel economy to be had versus 0W-40, unless we're talking about very light throttle application in a controlled testing environment. However, out there on the open road, while under load, pulling a trailer, the 0W-40 will undoubtedly provide better wear protection and more margin for fuel dilution than your garden variety 0W-20.

I watched the entire video, start to finish. The Hurricane inline six has Euro-Engineering vibes. Alan Falkowski made some generalized statements about how good thin oils have become, describing oil manufacturers almost like miracle workers. He also made the case that people should use the Start/Stop technology that comes with the Hurricane Engine. I don't like it when people, especially engineers, make generalized statements without backing those statements with data.

For anyone who doesn't want to spend time watching the entire video, I broke it down by topics with time stamps:

• Introduction to the interview with Alan Falkowski on the development of the Hurricane engine, its features, and its use in upcoming vehicles like the 2025 Ram 1500 and Dodge Charger. Alan shares insights on the transition from the Hemi engine to the Hurricane engine, emphasizing the importance of meeting modern performance and regulatory requirements. (Start of video)
• Discussion on engine design and decision-making around the inline-six configuration for the Hurricane engine. Alan explains the balance between power, fuel efficiency, and smooth operation, highlighting the benefits of turbocharging and the engine's fit in various vehicles. (Timestamp: 03:45)
• Insights into the development process and challenges faced in creating the Hurricane engine. Alan touches on the evolution of engine design tools, the reduction in prototyping, and the shift towards more efficient manufacturing processes. (Timestamp: 08:20)
• Deep dive into engine durability and reliability, addressing common concerns about turbocharged engines. Alan explains how modern design and testing methodologies ensure the Hurricane engine's reliability, even under extreme conditions. (Timestamp: 12:30)
• Cooling systems and oil management for the Hurricane engine. The conversation covers the engine's cooling strategies, the importance of using the right oil, and the extended oil change intervals made possible by advancements in oil technology. (Timestamp: 18:55)
• The role of oil in engine performance and longevity, with a focus on the latest oil standards and recommendations for the Hurricane engine. Alan dispels myths about oil change frequencies and emphasizes the benefits of modern synthetic oils. (Timestamp: 24:10)
• Discussion on the absence of a traditional dipstick in favor of oil level sensors and the rationale behind this decision. Alan reassures viewers about the reliability and convenience of modern oil monitoring systems. (Timestamp: 29:35)
• Engine break-in process and the minimal need for early oil changes with modern engines. Alan explains how advancements in engine materials and manufacturing have reduced the need for a traditional break-in period. (Timestamp: 33:50)
• Exploration of start-stop technology and starter motor durability. Alan addresses concerns about the impact of start-stop systems on starter motor wear, explaining how modern starters are designed to handle the increased demand. (Timestamp: 38:15)
• Alan's perspective on common misconceptions and the evolution of engine technology. He wishes for a broader understanding of the advancements in oil technology and engine design that allow for longer oil change intervals and more efficient operation. (Timestamp: 43:20)

Well since the Hurricane is replacing the Hemi Thank you green new deal and California. We now have a engine with no dipstick. But I am sure in most of these cars it’s now going to be located behind the steering wheel.

 

[Invisible]

You don't hear about FCA lifters failing at 3K or less like GM does.

AFM is more complex than MDS. In fact, the HEMI lifter failures are not due to MDS, as MDS is proven and bulletproof by now, though it won't save you much gas. On the other hand, AFM failures are very much compounded by sub-par lifters and mechanical complexity. I have a neighbour with a Chevy Tahoe, 5.3L, over 200K miles, barely takes care of it (I have to remind him to change the oil every six month, he does a lot of miles), the engine runs perfectly fine, not a single issue. I guess he got lucky that way. Yes, his engine is GDI, and has AFM.

That's the difference. 5.7 and 6.4 Hemis eat cams due to excessive idling and they exhibit these failures after some time of engine usage. This is documented and proven.

Please provide proof and documentation. I'm sure there's at least one hungry shark out there looking to take on FCA.

Ford doesn't have the lifter issue nearly as much as their cam phaser issues as of late.

Ford doesn't even want to bother with pulling the heads when the lifters fail in the 7.3L V8. They just replace the entire engine if it's under warranty. That speaks volumes.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The issue was attempted to be addressed in 2016 with a lifter update, and then again in 2019 with another lifter update. The 2016 and earlier engines, particularly 2010/2011/2012 seem to be the most prone.

Yeah, if the root cause was an oiling issue, the engineers would be updating the oil pump or other areas of the oiling system instead of the lifters.

 

[Invisible]

Yeah, if the root cause was an oiling issue, the engineers would be updating the oil pump or other areas of the oiling system instead of the lifters.

Oiling issues are caught early on, during the development stage.

I was able to squeeze about 300 more hp out of my 6.2L with no mods to the engine internals. Reliably as well.

Let me guess: smaller pulley and a tune.

And you're not worried that your Hellcat motor might eat a lifter or two, or grind off some cam, despite those "HEMI oiling issues"?

 

[Wat_MPG]

Let me guess: smaller pulley and a tune.

And you're not worried that your Hellcat motor might eat a lifter or two, or grind off some cam, despite those "HEMI oiling issues"?

A lot more than than a small pulley and a tune. The 6.2 can’t make 300 off of that. Lol.

Injectors, pump, lower, interchiller, ported bearing plate, 108mm snout and TB, cat deletes, and others.

I’m not worried about my 6.2 chewing a cam; they simply don’t have that problem….because why? You guessed it. It has a higher volume and pressure oil pump.

Now my 5.7? Yes. I would not be surprised if a cam gets trashed in 60k miles or less.

 

[OVERKILL]

I’m not worried about my 6.2 chewing a cam; they simply don’t have that problem….because why? You guess it. I higher volume and pressure oil pump.

Now my 5.7? Yes. I would not be surprised if a cam gets trashed in 60k miles or less.

There have been a few 6.2's that have eaten a lifter, but the number is low, primarily because they entered production years after the problem was first identified and steps were taken to mitigate it. Low production numbers mean its RoO will also be inherently low.

 

[Wat_MPG]

There have been a few 6.2's that have eaten a lifter, but the number is low, primarily because they entered production years after the problem was first identified and steps were taken to mitigate it. Low production numbers mean its RoO will also be inherently low.

If what you say is true, think about it like this. The Hellcat motor uses the same exact lifters as the 5.7 and 6.4.

Why do the 5.7 and 6.4 fail so much more?

 

[OVERKILL]

If what you say is true, think about it like this. The Hellcat motor uses the same exact lifters as the 5.7 and 6.4.

Why do the 5.7 and 6.4 fail so much more?

They don't. My dealer has never done 6.4L lifters, they've done 5.7L ones. It's all about production numbers and hours accrued. The few examples of 6.2L lifters I found were all reasonably low mileage, which we see the odd time with some of with the 5.7's as well, but then some are also failing at 200,000+ miles. How many 6.2's have 200,000+ miles on them? And again, most of them were manufactured after 2016, when the lifters were updated and the Hellcat's probably got the updated lifters first, so it's likely none of them had the pre-2016 lifter design.

Also, there are literally millions of 5.7's out there, if the rate of failure at under 100,000 miles is say 1 in 10,000 and we'll say production figures are 40 million, that's 4,000 examples, that's going to show up on forums, at your local dealer, people are going to hear about it. I expect the rate of pre 2016 failures was considerably higher than 1 in 10,000 though.

If we use that same 1 in 10,000 figure, how many 6.2's have been produced? There were 57,000 made as of the end of 2020, that's 5 years of production, so that's roughly 11,400 per year. Let's use that number and say there have now been 91,200 produced. Using our 1 in 10,000 figure, that's 9 failures. Would you hear about 9 failures? Unlikely, I had to go looking for them and I found I think 3 when I searched.

It's basic statistics.

 

[Wat_MPG]

They don't. My dealer has never done 6.4L lifters, they've done 5.7L ones. It's all about production numbers and hours accrued. The few examples of 6.2L lifters I found were all reasonably low mileage, which we see the odd time with some of with the 5.7's as well, but then some are also failing at 200,000+ miles. How many 6.2's have 200,000+ miles on them? And again, most of them were manufactured after 2016, when the lifters were updated and the Hellcat's probably got the updated lifters first, so it's likely none of them had the pre-2016 lifter design.

Also, there are literally millions of 5.7's out there, if the rate of failure at under 100,000 miles is say 1 in 10,000 and we'll say production figures are 40 million, that's 4,000 examples, that's going to show up on forums, at your local dealer, people are going to hear about it. I expect the rate of pre 2016 failures was considerably higher than 1 in 10,000 though.

If we use that same 1 in 10,000 figure, how many 6.2's have been produced? There were 57,000 made as of the end of 2020, that's 5 years of production, so that's roughly 11,400 per year. Let's use that number and say there have now been 91,200 produced. Using our 1 in 10,000 figure, that's 9 failures. Would you hear about 9 failures? Unlikely, I had to go looking for them and I found I think 3 when I searched.

It's basic statistics.

Then why is the oil pump different on the 6.2?

 

[OVERKILL]

Then why is the oil pump different on the 6.2?

Because it's north of 700HP and wears a blower? It probably also has even larger piston squirters than the 6.4L does, necessitating higher volume (which is one of the reasons the 6.4L has a bigger pump than the 5.7L, because the 6.4L has squirters and the 5.7L doesn't).

 

[Wat_MPG]

Because it's north of 700HP and wears a blower? It probably also has even larger piston squirters than the 6.4L does, necessitating higher volume (which is one of the reasons the 6.4L has a bigger pump than the 5.7L, because the 6.4L has squirters and the 5.7L doesn't).

This is good reading for our engine builders and tuners community.

 

[OVERKILL]

This is good reading for our engine builders and tuners community.

Just checked, they take the same squirters (392/6.4L and 6.2L) so would just be more volume through the same orifices.

Specifically regarding the Demon:

Some changes were also made to the block design and valvetrain. The block was reworked to allow for 50% more oil to be pumped to the piston oil sprayers in addition to new high-tensile rod and main cap bolts being used. Since the Demon has a higher 6,500 rpm redline, the valves and valve springs were also modified to withstand the higher engine speeds.

What are your oil temps like? Do they stay close to coolant temp or do they get a fair bit higher?