Heavier viscosity in a Toyota V6 sludge monster

[ToyotaNSaturn]

I have a 99 Sienna that I recently switched to M1 10w30. Even at 1500 miles, the oil looks dirty and beat up---that must mean it's doing it's job keeping this engine clean! I used Chevron 10w30 and a couple Neutra treatments prior to switching to M1 at this last drain.

One unexpected nicety of M1 that I've noticed is that the temp gauge reads slightly cooler all the time even in this hot weather lately with M1 compared to any dino oil I've used.

Seeing M1's specs of 5w30 vs 10w30 is only 0.1 higher viscosity rating at 100C for the 10w30, would it make sense just to use 5w30 instead of 10w30? Would fuel economy be any better? Would it matter at all?

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbo:
Dad's 1998 V6 Camry has over 100,000 sludge-free miles on it now. It has had Chevron Supreme or Pennzoil 10W-30 at approximately 3mo intervals it's whole life. The Pennzoil changes are done at the dealer with Toyota filters and the Chevron changes are at a quick-lube place that uses Champion Labs filters. He alternates between the two based on convenience.

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Jimbo-have you popped the valve cover off to check to see if there's any sludge? I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sludge build up. My 99 V6 Sienna with 39K needed the Neutra treatments I gave it. I was amazed how much crap came out of the pan and how black fresh Chevron Supreme oil was after only 500 miles into the the 1st Neutra treatment. This vehicle had the same 3K oil changes at the dealer for the first 32K of it's life.

I'm not saying your Camry has problems, but with Neutra only $3 a bottle, it's the cheapest thing out there to take care of this sludge issue.

 

[buster]

quote:

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If I had a Toyota sludge monter, I would use EITHER Redline 5W30 or Mobil 1 SS 10W30 with Auto-Rx treatments for two reasons;

1. Thinner oil is slightly more solvent than thicker oil, helping to wash surfaces,
2. better flow to the heads on cold and cool starts.

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Would this apply to any high reving engine or just the sludge monsters because on Mobil's webpage they advertise the 0w-20 for high reving 4cyl cars. I'm going to give it a shot.

 

[ruking77]

To me this is an overwhelming compelling reason to stay away from the Toyota V-6, Sienna minivan. It is more than apparent that some portions of the internal engine "cooks" oil.

I think long gone are the days that you could pick a brand and trust the product line.

I have owned/own:
1985 Camry (problematic, rehabbed and sold at 95k)
1987 Landcruiser (near bulletproof sold at app 250k)
1991 Landcruiser (ditto 1987 sold at 105k, still in use in Rhode Island with 180k)
1994 Landcruiser (ditto)
1996 Landcruiser (ditto)
1997 Landcruiser (ditto, sold at 50k)

By the way I have used Mobil One 5w-30 with 15k oil change intervals with NO problems or concerns. The 1985 Camry was on a 3k oil change interval with Castro GTX and it blew a pinhole in the manifold (letting the engine run without oil and cost upwards of 3k to "repair."(new intake manifold, new head, head gasket, cooling system, new valves, new grind, etc etc. I also got a chance to look at the innards and decided never again to use convention oil or get a Toyota 4 cylinder. Seems like the V-6 is following in the 4 cylinder's footsteps.

(as most folks know the 87-97 TLC are in line 6's)

[ July 18, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

Terry I have a question for you. Seeing how these engines are known to shear the oil early in the OCI could one start with a heavier oil or home brew to make up for this? I was just woundering if a mix of M1 10W30 and 15W50 would hold up better? I was thinking that the thin 10W30 is going to shear to a 20wt by 1500 miles in this Toyota and that the 15W50 would stablize this a bit ending up somewhere between a thick 30wt and light 40wt at the end of the OCI.

I was also thinking that his application might we well served buy M1 10W30 and Molakules LC/132 brew?

What do you think of either idea? Thanks for your time Terry!!

 

[Tim]

I must be really lucky...I have a '98 Sienna that (until just 2 oil changes ago) has been fed Wal-Mart Tech 2000 10W-40 and 20W-50 exclusively. I did change every 2000 miles though (the stuff is so cheap!). It would seem this 78 cent recycle oil would not be the oil of choice for this motor!!! I changed recently to Rotella T 5W-40 after hearing all the horror stories. I changed the filter every 1000 miles during the first 3000 on the Rotella just in case there was crud. I drained the pan at 3000 both Rotella changes thus far.

Tim

 

[Terry]

John, of those options I prefer the M1 10w-30 LC/132 Mola Brew.

One note though, M1 stays in grade pretty well even in the Toyota's as opposed to conventional base oils, in the API SL grade.

A LC only application with M1 10w-30 would be a neat test as LC on its own may be helpful also.

I'm not big fan of the M1 50w 30w mixing as the weakness IMHO is not vis induced but EP issues. Kinda like scratching your left arm when the skeeter bit the right one !

Schaeffers 7000 Blend 5w/10w - 30w oils are rock stable in these engines for 6000 mile or so intervals with very little build up.

John,Thank you ! Your expertise in CURRENT automotive issues is very much appreciated here !

I'm on the road for 8 days or so. Will be away from the board for about that amount of time FWIW.

Terry

 

[Toy4x4]

As for the filters:The 90915-YZZB9 filter was not made for Lexus. These filters are standard on Toyotas in Japan (-YZZB?) and you can find them at regular dealerships, you just have to ask.
Check in the "Favorite Links" section for a link to an online discount Toyota dealership. I have yet to find cheaper filters than there (buy a few at a time, save more on shipping) and you will CERTAINLY save over buying them at your local stealer... er ... dealership.

 

[Drstressor]

Just a little point of information here. If shear-induced oxidation is the source of the sludge, the last thing you would want to do is to use a heavier oil. While the heavy oil will hold viscosity longer than a lighter oil, the rate of molecular shearing will actually be greater with the heavier oil. Large molecules shear more readily than smaller molecules. You can't get around the physics. When hydrocarbon chains are mechanically sheared, molecules with unsaturated bonds that are easily oxidized further are produced.

Branched chain PAO and Group III base stocks should give much better results than Group I or II oils which still contain easily sheared linear paraffin molecules. I think that is what you guys are seeing. A combination of a shear-stable base stock and strong detergent/dispersant package should give the best results. Can't see how extra EP additives would have a significant effect.

 

[Tim]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan:
Gang,
I got a new PCV on hand to replace the current one.

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Alan

Can you save me some searching and tell me where the pcv valve is located on the Sienna?

Thanks,

Tim

 

[TooSlick]

I wouldn't run anything heavier than a 10w-30 synthetic in this application. I have 5-6 local customers with this engine running the Amsoil 0w-30 w/ 7500-9000 mile oil/filter changes. I've been seeing excellent long term results and little or no oil consumption.

You want the additional cooling of using the low vis synlube in this application ....

TS

 

[Tim]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan:
Gang,
I got a new PCV on hand to replace the current one.

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Alan

Can you save me some searching and tell me where the pcv valve is located on the Sienna?

Thanks,

Tim

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Nevermind...I think I found it. Passenger side on the rear bank.

Geez, could they make it a little harder to reach?


Tim

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
I wouldn't run anything heavier than a 10w-30 synthetic in this application. I have 5-6 local customers with this engine running the Amsoil 0w-30 w/ 7500-9000 mile oil/filter changes. I've been seeing excellent long term results and little or no oil consumption.

You want the additional cooling of using the low vis synlube in this application ....

TS

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TooSlick, how often do you change the filters on these extended drain Toyotas? I was under the impression that I need to change filters every 5K/miles. (Don't know how I arrived at that, but if I could go longer than 5K, great!). I've been using M1 10w30 with Toyota's filters.

 

[Alan]

Hi,Tim

Sorry I missed your question.Yes it's a little hard to get to in the passenger side rear engine bay.I got an 02 Sienna and when I went to buy a new PCV from the dealership they asked which month in 02 my van was manufactured.There are 3 different types of PCV's for the the 02 Sienna's.Makes you think Toyota thought that maybe the PCV system could use some updating during the sludge dilema.BTW I love my Sienna and the engine is one of the best I've ever owned.It's smooth and powerful but needs a little attention in the oil quality put in department.

 

[TooSlick]

ToyotanSaturn,

My customers use the Amsoil SDF-57 filter and run the same filter for the entire oil change....

TS

 

[Tim]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan:
Hi,Tim

Sorry I missed your question. BTW I love my Sienna and the engine is one of the best I've ever owned.It's smooth and powerful but needs a little attention in the oil quality put in department.

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Hey - no problem. I agree the engine is fine so long as you care for it.

I have to admit, I failed to pay any attention to the PCV valve over the past 5 years and nearly 100,000 miles. I yanked it last night for the first time and believe it or not, the little check valve rattled when I gently shook it!!!

I cleaned it anyway and stuck it back in. I guess those 2,000 mile oil changes, even with the cheap Wal-Mart oil, paid off.

No smoke, no sludge (I hope!).

Tim

 

[RussellA]

quote:

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These filters are standard on Toyotas in Japan (-YZZB?) and you can find them at regular dealerships, you just have to ask.

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I'll try asking my Toyota dealer, but truth is the Lexus people are alot nicer. I made the mistake of asking the guy in the Toyota parts department about the sludging problem. Yikes. He pretty much yelled "People aren't changing their oil that's the problem!". I guess I'll just order them might be best.

 

[Greg Bohn]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Terry I have a question for you. Seeing how these engines are known to shear the oil early in the OCI could one start with a heavier oil or home brew to make up for this? I was just woundering if a mix of M1 10W30 and 15W50 would hold up better? I was thinking that the thin 10W30 is going to shear to a 20wt by 1500 miles in this Toyota and that the 15W50 would stablize this a bit ending up somewhere between a thick 30wt and light 40wt at the end of the OCI.

I was also thinking that his application might we well served buy M1 10W30 and Molakules LC/132 brew?

What do you think of either idea? Thanks for your time Terry!!

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I have a1MZ-FE in my 2002 Avalon, and the results I've gotten so far have always shown a lower than expected oil viscosity.

Doing a few UOA's I've come to suspect that (at least in my case) fuel dilution seems to thin the oil very quickly in this engine (I do frequent short trips).

To see what was going on, I sampled the oil with very few miles on it (72 at one point) and the oil was already substantially 'thinner'. I compared this to later analysis of the same oil after more mileage.

Here are some results using the Dealer Bulk 5W-30 (and factory fill):

code:

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Date: 08/12/02 08/12/02 08/26/02 12/08/02 12/08/02 12/20/02 04/07/03

Oil Miles: 1,528 Unused 195 1,244 Unused 72 1,475



Vis@100C: 8.46 Cst 10.82 8.94 7.90 10.77 8.58 7.27

Fuel% (FTIR) pre>

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The unused samples were from extra oil I got at each change, which was supposedly the same oil they used for the change.



At least in my case, something seems to thin the oil very quickly. I would have thought the effects of shearing would take longer than 72 miles to show up. But who knows since the lab I used doesn't report less than 2% fuel dilution.

 

[kiko]

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan:
BTW I love my Sienna and the engine is one of the best I've ever owned.It's smooth and powerful but needs a little attention in the oil quality put in department.

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Alan,

I agree. I have the '04 Sienna. Currently running the Castol Syntec (German) in it. I've got about 2,800 miles on the oil and will run it to about 4k+ and then do a UOA. Can't wait for the results. A little background on where I've been for those 2,800 miles - let's see, Phoenix and back (I live in Irvine, CA) on July 4th weekend, Vegas Saturday and then Phoenix on Sunday and then back home Monday. Mostly highway (very hot) miles. AC all the way and a bit of long idling while waiting for restroom breaks. In two weeks I'll be going back to Phoenix and maybe that's it for the oil. I'll drain a little bit and save it for a UOA. The oil will be changed out by then. Time to look for more German Syntec.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
If I had a Toyota sludge monter, I would use EITHER Redline 5W30 or Mobil 1 SS 10W30 with Auto-Rx treatments for two reasons;

1. Thinner oil is slightly more solvent than thicker oil, helping to wash surfaces,
2. better flow to the heads on cold and cool starts.

---

Some years back I worked for a company and one of the things I was involved in was testing a number of different oil coolers on air cooled motorcycle engines.

We also played with oil weights as part of that testing and one of the things we noticed was - all other things being equal, using heavier oils *always* caused higher oil temperatures.

It may have been somewhat skewed because air cooled engines use the oil in large part as a cooling medium and have no thermostatic temperature control but the point remains in my mind. High flow rates are good for removing heat and thinner oil ( within reason ) promotes good flow...

Of course, YMMV...

[ July 23, 2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: jsharp ]