Pros/Cons of using a HDEO vs a Full Saps PMCO 40wt

T

tcrs_circuit

Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Messages
111
Location
Palmdale, CA
Hi all,

Some of you may remember my high FE HEMI Mobil 1 0w40 thread.... The issue ended up being the hardening layer of the cam wore off, everything else looked fairly good.

The engine got a comp 224/234 cam (over .600 lift) as well as a complete timing and head job with a hellcat oil pump. It makes 429hp to the wheels on a dyno, which is pretty much the most you'll ever get or can ask for out of a N/A 5.7 with stock pistons. I've been using M1 0w40 , M1 15w50 and a current fill of Pennzoil Euro 0w40.

I am hard on this engine, and it does see the drag strip occasionally, so I defiantly look for Zn levels above 1000 ppm. Cats are a non issue. Have a stash of Rotella T5 (and some T4) 15w40 that i'm likely going to pour into this engine. T4 is now a syn blend with no moly and T5 is also a syn blend but also has trimer MoDTC based on the numbers as well as a healthy dose of ZDDP and boron. Given how hard I am on this engine now, plus the added horsepower, I doubt ill ever exceed 3k miles on a OCI, so I'm thinking of just using the Rotella from now on.. It's cheap, seems to work well in most applications, and readily available.

Plus I think the 15w40 will be a bit more shear stable than the 0w40s... Will get a UOA sent out of this Pennzoil 0w40 that's in here now then will do another with Rotella and see how it compares.

Curious to hear thoughts on this
 
Hdeo's can have a higher add pack but both are still better than standard pcmo's. Delvac extreme seems to be the most packed off the wally shelf hdeo.

Mobil Delvac Extreme 15W-40 CK4

I have had this Oil in my 16 Ram 3500 CTD now for 2 months. It is Mobil Delvac Extreme 15-40 full synthetic. My concern is the low Virgin TBN.
bobistheoilguy.com
 
It's a roller motor, it doesn't need obscene amounts of phosphorous, what's in a Euro oil is more than sufficient. If the hellkitty engine can survive, and have warranty, on API xW-30 phosphorous limits (what's in the SRT 0W-40) then you'll be just fine on the Euro 0W-40's.

You should look for some of the commentary on "Brotella" that @RDY4WAR has made.
 
Maybe more molybdenum is the answer. Valvoline uses a healthy amount in their oils. Valvoline Daily Protection 10W40 would be a good choice.
 
tcrs_circuit said:
Hi all,

Some of you may remember my high FE HEMI Mobil 1 0w40 thread.... The issue ended up being the hardening layer of the cam wore off, everything else looked fairly good.

The engine got a comp 224/234 cam (over .600 lift) as well as a complete timing and head job with a hellcat oil pump. It makes 429hp to the wheels on a dyno, which is pretty much the most you'll ever get or can ask for out of a N/A 5.7 with stock pistons. I've been using M1 0w40 , M1 15w50 and a current fill of Pennzoil Euro 0w40.

I am hard on this engine, and it does see the drag strip occasionally, so I defiantly look for Zn levels above 1000 ppm. Cats are a non issue. Have a stash of Rotella T5 (and some T4) 15w40 that i'm likely going to pour into this engine. T4 is now a syn blend with no moly and T5 is also a syn blend but also has trimer MoDTC based on the numbers as well as a healthy dose of ZDDP and boron. Given how hard I am on this engine now, plus the added horsepower, I doubt ill ever exceed 3k miles on a OCI, so I'm thinking of just using the Rotella from now on.. It's cheap, seems to work well in most applications, and readily available.

Plus I think the 15w40 will be a bit more shear stable than the 0w40s... Will get a UOA sent out of this Pennzoil 0w40 that's in here now then will do another with Rotella and see how it compares.

Curious to hear thoughts on this
Click to expand...
@RDY4WAR I feel like OP should search your post about Rotella & 6 figures of lost business…
 
tcrs_circuit said:
Hi all,

Some of you may remember my high FE HEMI Mobil 1 0w40 thread.... The issue ended up being the hardening layer of the cam wore off, everything else looked fairly good.

The engine got a comp 224/234 cam (over .600 lift) as well as a complete timing and head job with a hellcat oil pump. It makes 429hp to the wheels on a dyno, which is pretty much the most you'll ever get or can ask for out of a N/A 5.7 with stock pistons. I've been using M1 0w40 , M1 15w50 and a current fill of Pennzoil Euro 0w40.

I am hard on this engine, and it does see the drag strip occasionally, so I defiantly look for Zn levels above 1000 ppm. Cats are a non issue. Have a stash of Rotella T5 (and some T4) 15w40 that i'm likely going to pour into this engine. T4 is now a syn blend with no moly and T5 is also a syn blend but also has trimer MoDTC based on the numbers as well as a healthy dose of ZDDP and boron. Given how hard I am on this engine now, plus the added horsepower, I doubt ill ever exceed 3k miles on a OCI, so I'm thinking of just using the Rotella from now on.. It's cheap, seems to work well in most applications, and readily available.

Plus I think the 15w40 will be a bit more shear stable than the 0w40s... Will get a UOA sent out of this Pennzoil 0w40 that's in here now then will do another with Rotella and see how it compares.

Curious to hear thoughts on this
Click to expand...

You are 1 step ahead of the game here in that you stepped up to the Hellcat Oil Pump, when your issues were not the Camshaft but the Oil Pump that came with your car. Before anyone says it is something else, realize the HellCat owners are not having these issues with Camshafts in there engines. It is all about flow from the Oil Pump, and at idle the stock pump on the 5.7 is not good at idle and it is barely adequate at higher RPM's.

To the OP, give the guys at HPL a call and get there advice.

Are we saying that the Camshaft on the Hellcat Engine was made out of a different metal than the Cams on the 5.7 Liter Engine?

There are videos about this situation on the Internet here.

Wake up 2 anyone reading this, the best oil is not going to overcome Chrysler saving about $100.00 or so doing what they did with the 5.7 and even the 6.4 Liter engines on these cars.
 
I am not sure any kind of oil can compensate for oiling problems. HDEO oil are great oils.
 
Brian123 said:
You are 1 step ahead of the game here in that you stepped up to the Hellcat Oil Pump, when your issues were not the Camshaft but the Oil Pump that came with your car. Before anyone says it is something else, realize the HellCat owners are not having these issues with Camshafts in there engines. It is all about flow from the Oil Pump, and at idle the stock pump on the 5.7 is not good at idle and it is barely adequate at higher RPM's.

To the OP, give the guys at HPL a call and get there advice.

Are we saying that the Camshaft on the Hellcat Engine was made out of a different metal than the Cams on the 5.7 Liter Engine?

There are videos about this situation on the Internet here.

Wake up 2 anyone reading this, the best oil is not going to overcome Chrysler saving about $100.00 or so doing what they did with the 5.7 and even the 6.4 Liter engines on these cars.
Click to expand...
The Hellcat engines have the same lifter failures as the 5.7L and the 6.4L. You just don't hear about it as often because there are far fewer of them out there, just like you don't hear about it with the 6.4L either, for the same reason.
 
Oil at the cams experiences higher shear rates than anywhere else in the engine. This puts the oil in a fully shear-thinned state, where high-VII oils will be a lot thinner than low-VII oils. According to Ghokan's spreadsheet, Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum 0W-40 have a decent HTHS of around 3.6 cP, but when they are fully shear-thinned at the cams it is only around 2.3 cP, which is around the same as a typical 5W-30, and actually thinner than a 10W-30. Compare this viscosity to a low-VII oil like Shell Rotella T4 15W-40, which has a full-shear viscosity of 3.3 cP.

Maybe viscosity had nothing to do with your cam failure, but only downsides of low-VII oils are worse cold start performance and fuel economy, which probably aren't relevant to you. Ditch the high-VII oils and stick with a 15W-40 or 15W-50. I'm not sure if an HDEO will be better than a PCMO, but anecdotally, the cams on my flat-tappet motorcycle engine show zero visible wear at 40k km after a steady diet of Rotella and Delvac 15W-40.
 
twX said:
Oil at the cams experiences higher shear rates than anywhere else in the engine. This puts the oil in a fully shear-thinned state, where high-VII oils will be a lot thinner than low-VII oils. According to Ghokan's spreadsheet, Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum 0W-40 have a decent HTHS of around 3.6 cP, but when they are fully shear-thinned at the cams it is only around 2.3 cP, which is around the same as a typical 5W-30, and actually thinner than a 10W-30. Compare this viscosity to a low-VII oil like Shell Rotella T4 15W-40, which has a full-shear viscosity of 3.3 cP.

Maybe viscosity had nothing to do with your cam failure, but only downsides of low-VII oils are worse cold start performance and fuel economy, which probably aren't relevant to you. Ditch the high-VII oils and stick with a 15W-40 or 15W-50. I'm not sure if an HDEO will be better than a PCMO, but anecdotally, the cams on my flat-tappet motorcycle engine show zero visible wear at 40k km after a steady diet of Rotella and Delvac 15W-40.
Click to expand...
Is there some documentation you have about the cam being the area of highest shear? The rotating speeds are fairly slow since each individual lobe is effectively half engine speed; all of the other white papers that have been posted show that the piston skirt/ring pack are magnitudes higher since they are traveling upwards of of 4000+ fpm in some cases.
 
wpod said:
No because the work well.
Click to expand...

This says otherwise...

3rd Gen Ecodiesel bearing failure.webp



Also... most all generic CK-4 HDMOs are 10-12% Noack. That tells you all you need to know about the quality of the base oil. (or lack thereof)

If it was so good, you wouldn't have diesel manufacturers pleading with API for a supplement to CK-4. Cummins wouldn't be ditching the spec completely. Mopar wouldn't have gone through the trouble of creating their own spec (similar to A3/B4) to stop the bearing and crank failures on CK-4 oils in their 3rd gen Ecodiesels.
 
RDY4WAR said:
This says otherwise...

View attachment 182535


Also... most all generic CK-4 HDMOs are 10-12% Noack. That tells you all you need to know about the quality of the base oil. (or lack thereof)

If it was so good, you wouldn't have diesel manufacturers pleading with API for a supplement to CK-4. Cummins wouldn't be ditching the spec completely. Mopar wouldn't have gone through the trouble of creating their own spec (similar to A3/B4) to stop the bearing and crank failures on CK-4 oils in their 3rd gen Ecodiesels.
Click to expand...
if I remember correctly Mopars issue with the 3 litre Ecodiesel was they were originally speccing a 5w30.. which they then moved to a 5w40 spec.. I haven't heard anythign about Cummins ditching the spec, currently there spec is a CK4 that meets CES 20086 or 20087 Cummins certifications
 
MSCH said:
if I remember correctly Mopars issue with the 3 litre Ecodiesel was they were originally speccing a 5w30.. which they then moved to a 5w40 spec.. I haven't heard anythign about Cummins ditching the spec, currently there spec is a CK4 that meets CES 20086 or 20087 Cummins certifications
Click to expand...

Mopar specs their OEM cert MS-12991 in 5W-40. They do not spec CK-4. There's been ongoing issues with dealerships failing to acknowledge that, putting Rotella in the engines, and getting bearing failures as a result.
 
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