Good idea to change oil filter every 5000 miles

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm greatful to member edhackett for posting the controlled variable oil filter efficiency study I linked.

Rather than strictly showing that oil filters become less efficient with use, in my interpretation the ZO6 coined 'hockey stick' curve shows that filters are at their peak efficiency at the very beginning. Then they remain relatively constant until they approach or at their holding capacity when the efficiency falls off rather markedly. 'To me', it's a distinction with a difference. In normal use the filter pulled well before it hits it's holding capacity.

I personally do not accept BlSt particle counts as a reliable indication of efficiency within and between UOAs. To me just an extra test BlSt sells and there are far to many uncontrolled variables in personal use for them to be reliable. If one did accept their complete reliability for filter efficiency, then there is a recent example of China made Rock Auto Toyota knock off filter with better a particle count than a Fram Ultra run under similar conditions.
shocked.gif
And the OP said was disappointed in the Ultra particle count results.

As for media type with running a filter twice, while full synthetic would be best suited, many anecdotes posted here showing blend media like that used on the BD+ also very a capable of multiple ocis.
 
The edHackett/Sayjac/ZeeOSix paper referenced above bolsters the case for using an oversized oil filter (if possible & practical of course; fit).
With MORE media area, mass flux (flow speed) and delta-pressure is less, which then mitigates the effects of what I've called "particle tumble" effects:
Bottom line is an oversize filter has better efficiency.
Enev6KH.jpg
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
... I personally do not accept BlSt particle counts as a reliable indication of efficiency within and between UOAs. To me just an extra test BlSt sells and there are far to many uncontrolled variables in personal use for them to be reliable.


Maybe we're referring to different info?

I was referring to the SAE study SAE 902238 done on city buses; they showed a distinct correlation between particulate counts (filter efficiency) and Fe wear metals.
Are you referring to Blackstone (BlSt?) PC counts? I don't know of any data that corroborates any claim there. But I wasn't referring to that, so maybe you and I are on a different page?
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
The edHackett/Sayjac/ZeeOSix paper referenced above bolsters the case for using an oversized oil filter (if possible & practical of course; fit).
With MORE media area, mass flux (flow speed) and delta-pressure is less, which then mitigates the effects of what I've called "particle tumble" effects:
Bottom line is an oversize filter has better efficiency.
Enev6KH.jpg




What the paper shows is that, when properly manipulated, a lab test can induce a difference in filtration effect. Seen it done many times before. However, what is proven in the lab often does not translate into reality due to the lab conditions often being absurdly magnified to elicit the desired effect.

My point is that it does not manifest into real life. You'll not see less wear do any discernible degree by using an oversized filter.
 
Quote:
...Are you referring to Blackstone (BlSt?) PC counts? ...

Yes. As my linked example using the words, "recent example" was referring to Blackstone (BlSt) particle counts and specifically the one noted in my prior post. Those are sometimes used in this subforum as a reference for filter efficiency, and what the members here have ready access to. It was noted in a prior post as reference to increased filter efficiency with use.

However, the important point not quoted was the interpretation of the efficiency study and graph as I see it. I'll stick with that.
 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Quote:
...Are you referring to Blackstone (BlSt?) PC counts? ...

Yes. As my linked example using the words, "recent example" was referring to Blackstone (BlSt) particle counts and specifically the one noted in my prior post. Those are sometimes used in this subforum as a reference for filter efficiency, and what the members here have ready access to. It was noted in a prior post as reference to increased filter efficiency with use.

However, the important point not quoted was the interpretation of the efficiency study and graph as I see it. I'll stick with that.



I have many times read on a BLST report that the filter is doing a good job because the insolubles are low. A link of dubious distinction; I would agree.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
...I have many times read on a BLST report that the filter is doing a good job because the insolubles are low. A link of dubious distinction; I would agree.

Not referring to insolubles on UOA. Blackstone said long ago and it was posted here, when it comes to insolubles they see no significant difference between and among filters used in UOAs.

I'm referring to the particle counts they sell as an extra service.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Regarding this:
Oil Filter Efficiency Study.

I find it interesting, but it raises more questions than it answers. I do note that it appears to me as just a fancied ALT; they manipulate many things in the lab to get a result they wanted to see. It does not relate directly to reality IMO. Especially when they have to add "ghost" particles to induce a capture-rate scenario. I am not saying the data is bad. I'm just saying it's data that was a result of manipulating processes in order to exhibit what they wanted to see.


What I got out of the paper was that Figure 1 was actual lab testing per the ISO 4548 multi-pass test, and the paper was showing how they tried to model a filter loading up to correlate to what they actually saw in the lab testing. That's one way you tweak models to match what you measure in the real world.
 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
...I have many times read on a BLST report that the filter is doing a good job because the insolubles are low. A link of dubious distinction; I would agree.

Not referring to insolubles on UOA. Blackstone said long ago and it was posted here, when it comes to insolubles they see no significant difference between and among filters used in UOAs.

I'm referring to the particle counts they sell as an extra service.


OK - I get you now.

I have, however, seen them occasionally make a comment about filters and cleaner oil, with no PC data included. Even with their PCs, I don't see any conclusive data. It's a stretch.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Regarding this:
Oil Filter Efficiency Study.

I find it interesting, but it raises more questions than it answers. I do note that it appears to me as just a fancied ALT; they manipulate many things in the lab to get a result they wanted to see. It does not relate directly to reality IMO. Especially when they have to add "ghost" particles to induce a capture-rate scenario. I am not saying the data is bad. I'm just saying it's data that was a result of manipulating processes in order to exhibit what they wanted to see.


What I got out of the paper was that Figure 1 was actual lab testing per the ISO 4548 multi-pass test, and the paper was showing how they tried to model a filter loading up to correlate to what they actually saw in the lab testing. That's one way you tweak models to match what you measure in the real world.


I can see where you got that.


What I recoil at is the direct dichotomy of this filter study versus the bus filter study. I see that no one has taken a bit of the poisonous apple ... No one wants to tackle the fact that these two studies cannot coexist in the real world. But one of those two studies HAS to be wrong; they cannot both be right. Or are we just going to ignore the big elephant in the room?
21.gif
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What I recoil at is the direct dichotomy of this filter study versus the bus filter study. I see that no one has taken a bit of the poisonous apple ... No one wants to tackle the fact that these two studies cannot coexist in the real world. But one of those two studies HAS to be wrong; they cannot both be right. Or are we just going to ignore the big elephant in the room?
21.gif


The M+H paper never talks about engine wear vs filter efficiency like the SAE bus study paper does. And the bus study paper never addresses filter efficiency change with time broken out by particle size. There is no "direct cross correlation", but they don't necessarily oppose or disagree with each other, and this is why.

Let's say all filters exhibit similar efficiency vs loading curves like shown in Figure 1 of the M+H paper. The overall efficiency rating used in the bus study is going too still be valid because it doesn't matter that they behave like shown in Figure 1 if they are all tested equally to determine their overall effective efficiency rating & ranking given in the bus study.

Also note that in Figure 1 that the efficiency curves for particles less than 10 microns levels off very quickly and stays constant until max loadind occurs. As all these wear vs particle size papers say, those particles can cause the most wear.
 
To add to the above (too late to edit), we have seen info/data that says a high efficiency filter will take out more particles across the whole range of particles, which should result in less engine wear as conclude in the bus study.

That would mean the curves for the different particles sizes in Figure 1 would be at higher efficency levels for all particles, and that would also mean the overall ISO 4548 efficiency rating will also be higher than a less efficient filter regardless if the efficiency drops off in a similar manner with loading in all filters.
 
I will state here and now that the reason I believe the disparity exists is because the M+H filter study is yet another modified ALT, and while it can prove what it set out to prove, the effect it pronounces does NOT manifest into the real world.

Here’s why …

“To achieve statistically reliable efficiency results, a large number of particles must be considered. Filter loading experiments are carried out on at least a few square centimeters of media. Even for those, the statistics of particle counting for large particles usually rely on very few particles. Media scale simulations, on the other hand, consider even smaller surfaces of about a square millimeter. For these smaller surface areas, arrivals of large particles are even less probable than in experiments and the predicted filter efficiency curves would have low statistical relevance. By interspersing filter efficiency simulations with many more particles than would actually arrive at the media during life time simulations, the quality of the filtration statistics of media scale simulations can be improved such that a quantitative comparison with experimental data becomes possible.” (underline my emphasis)

IOW, to get statistically quantifiable data, they had to greatly increase the amount of particulate to a point that would be discernible numerically with high confidence, but that same level of particulate is way above what would be seen in a life-time cycle of the filter! It's an ALT, pure and simple. They cannot get real world data to prove what they want to see, so they manipulate the inputs to greatly magnify the result, far past what would be seen in the normal experience in the field. This is completely akin to the infamous GM filter study, where they doused unworldly amounts of dust into the sump and then never changed the oil once, negating the effects of OCIs.


If we were to accept that this effect they claim proven is in play relative to our daily lives, then we would have to accept a precept of wear occurring at ever greater rates. However, because the bus study (at least it's a real-world test not accelerated by artificial inputs) proves correlation between Fe wear data and particle counts, and we know UOAs show us LOWER wear rates during the maturation of OFCI, this M+H study cannot be true in a sense of real world experiences.

How grossly exaggerated was the particulate loading? Well, looking at Fig. 1, they managed to load up a filter to the point of blinding off in about 75 minutes! That, gentle men and women, is an ALT at it's finest. The study also never goes on to make any attempt to discern how long a real filter would last in use, nor even how long the subject matter media pieces would delineate a "lifetime" expectancy.



And let's not ignore this:
"The efficiency results from the simulation as presented in Fig. 7 are not very meaningful for larger particle diameters, e.g. it is not possible to tell from the data if the filtration efficiency of 15 μm particles is decreasing or not. This is due to the small number of large particles simulated in each batch. The test dust used in experiment and simulation counts 75.06% of the smallest particles (1 μm diameter) and only 0.001115% of the largest particles (50 μm diameter), which means that there are
67318 particles of 1 μm diameter for one particle of 50 μm diameter. To get statistically meaningful results also for the large particles one would need to simulate much larger filter areas (higher numerical costs) or use larger time steps (lower accuracy), which is in general not desirable. To overcome this dilemma, we introduce ghost particles into the simulation. "
(underlined emphasis mine)

If you review Fig 8, you'll see they blinded off the media in about 1600 secs (26 minutes). Again - is that realistic???? NO!

This M+H study does NOT do anything to prove how wear is affected by filtration. It exists only to show a phenomenon for the sake of self-existence. They didn't show how this supposed effect causes more or less wear. They only doped up the loading artificially to show how they can overload the media to a point of perceived failure (that being less of what a filter is supposed to achieve).

Here's what I accept; the M+H study can prove that filters become less efficient when they dump a ton of particles into the stream all at once, far exceeding what your engine will ever induce or experience in normal use. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the loading they inflict is akin to abuse to a normal engine; what filter would ever incur loading so horrific as to plug up in 26 minutes? Or even an hour? Most filters can easily go 200 hours without coming close to blinding off. Back when Jim Allen was doing his experiments, he saw no evidence of filters blinding even at far distances; his test measurement equipment in his 5.4L F-150 was showing dP at about 2-4psi BELOW the BP crack-open value, even at the end of longer OCFIs! Now think about that for a minute ... Let it sink in ....
The M+H study is dumping in particulate in a loading factor that is approximately 200x greater (or more) than what your engine will ever see. That in mind, do these lab results seem applicable to your engine in your garage?

Here's what I believe is happening in the real world. We actually experience such light particle loading that the effect seen in all these graphs does not apply. We essentially experience a reasonably flat line capture ratio. I cannot prove this, but what I can do it point to the UOA data we see to show that wear data does NOT agree with the M+H study.

Or, we could agree that both the M+H study and macro wear data could coincide, but then we'd have to be willing to ignore the bus study completely, because it shows a proven correlation between particle counts and Fe wear ppm in a UOA.

Can't have it both ways, guys and gals. You either believe the bus study or the M+H study. I choose to believe the bus study because it agrees with my macro data, and does not contradict common sense. Further, it was a real-world study not accelerated by input manipulation. The only thing I find a bit obtuse about the bus study is the huge disparity of elemental media; but that's OK as it only proves what extremes perform to even though the normal filters we buy don't offer such exaggerated options.

Further, I also believe that the TCB is also in play in terms of controlling wear. In fact, I believe it is the main controller of wear, once "good enough" filtration is established. Finer filtration make may for more interesting lab results, but it never is able to shift UOA data obstensibly to a point where we can statistically discern it. And if you believe the bus study, then you must accept UOA Fe wear data as a direct correlation signal, meaning that small differences in filter choices never makes a hoot of difference in the real world.



So, while it may be true that filters do become less efficient as they mature, it can ONLY be said to be true when the LOADING RATE OF PARTICULATE is so obscene as to cause a total eclipse of the media measured in minutes, not thousands upon thousands of miles as seen in your garage. The M+H study is "true" no more or less than the GM filter study is "true"; neither are relevant in the real world because they grossly exaggerate particle loading to induce an effect large enough to be visible in data collection. And, both of those studies freely admit that they do this for that effect, and you'll never see this effect in the real world.


It's true in the lab, because they greatly exaggerated the occurrence of particles.
It's not true in your driveway, because such extreme particulate loading never happens to your engine.
 
If fast loading during a filter test compared to real world use is invalid, then the multi pass test done in four hours is invalid. I have said that before I think it is too fast, but for time and money's sake they have to do it that way. I can't come close to saying the SAE is wrong though, who am I to do that. They obviously know many times more about it. It is just my opinion.
Another question is how can efficiency be 99.9% at some micron value, unless during the whole test the real time efficiency was near to 99.9? If there was some 80% at the beginning, or end, then it would skew the average I would think. They add dirt in intervals.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I change the filter AND oil every 5,000 miles or six months.
This^^^^^^
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If fast loading during a filter test compared to real world use is invalid, then the multi pass test done in four hours is invalid. I have said that before I think it is too fast, but for time and money's sake they have to do it that way. I can't come close to saying the SAE is wrong though, who am I to do that. They obviously know many times more about it. It is just my opinion.
Another question is how can efficiency be 99.9% at some micron value, unless during the whole test the real time efficiency was near to 99.9? If there was some 80% at the beginning, or end, then it would skew the average I would think. They add dirt in intervals.

Someone posted a link awhile back (last month or two) to the official ISO 4548 test procedure if you're interested to read and find out how the test is actually conducted.

It's a test that's been approved by the ISO council and obviously many engineers, and has been around a decent amount of time so I'd think it's got some decent validity for rating and comparing oil filters. It's purpose isn't necessarily meant to reflect "real world" conditions but I'd think a filter that rated high in the ISO test is going to perform better in real world conditions than a filter that rates much lower in the ISO test.

I'll see if I can find the thread with the ISO procedure link, or someone else (maybe Sayjac) has it bookmarked and can post a link.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I will state here and now that the reason I believe the disparity exists is because the M+H filter study is yet another modified ALT, and while it can prove what it set out to prove, the effect it pronounces does NOT manifest into the real world.

95% of the M+H paper is about trying to simulate/model what real measurements were done in the lab (ie, Figure 1). They are probably trying to model the filter loading with time phenomenon so they don't have to keep using expensive lab resources and manpower to get data like this. I'm only concerned about the real measured data in Figure 1, not how close they can get a simlation model by whatever means of "model tweaking" - the whole purpose of the M+H paper.

When they measured and rated the filters they used in the bus study, all the filters were ran through the same "accelerated" multi-pass test. Yet the end conclusion was that the more efficient filters as identified by the multi-pass test resulted in less engine wear as measured under real world conditions.

What I'm saying is it doesn't really matter if an oil filter behaves like shown in Figure 1 in the M+H paper (efficiency drops off some with use) because if they are all doing that and are all tested for an effective efficiency per the same multi-pass test procedure, then the higher rated filters will give the best wear protection as concluded in the "real world" bus study. That's how I see that these two studies relate and correspond with each other.
 
I believe what most people would want to know in laymen's terms is : "In a well kept engine using a OEM or good quality paper oil filter with synthetic oil could you not be able to use the oil filter for two OCI's of 7,500 miles (max mileage recommended for most OEM vehicles ) for a total of 15K miles on the oil filter - yes or no" ? *As a specific example although the Hyundai OEM oil filter (Mann) is regarded as a well built oil filter, to my knowledge it does not use synthetic media . Yet in a well maintaned vehicle using good quality oil in non severe conditions , I do not believe the particle build up would be sufficiant enough to restrict oil flow and send the filter into bypass or have the filter media to start coming apart inside the oil filter (even at 15K miles) ?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I'll see if I can find the thread with the ISO procedure link, or someone else (maybe Sayjac) has it bookmarked and can post a link.

I searched all over the place and couldn't find the link I was talking about - maybe someone saved the thread it was originally posted in.

One thing that the ISO 4548-12 test spec does is the final rated efficiency at particles 20 microns or greater is based on the average of the starting efficiency and the ending efficiency when the delta-p is 80~100% of the starting clean filter element delta-p. That means the final calculated test efficiency per ISO 4548-12 averages any loss in efficiency with loading as represented by the "hockey stick" shaped curves in Figure 1 of the M+H paper.

Something interesting is that the test also says to do a delta-p measurement on just the empty filter can so they can calculate what the delta-p just across the media element is - that's the delta-p they are watching to increase during the test.

Also, the ISO 4548-12 test recommends a contamination rate of 10 mg/l of a specific ISO approved test dust during the test, and the test machine needs to be validated before the actual filter is tested - looks very intensive. The time to obtain enough loading capacity to get 80+% more delta-p than the baseline clean element delta-p is used to estimate the duration of the test, and is what dictates when the test is over. If the estimated test duration becomes very long, then the contamination rate can be increased to keep the test duration reasonable.

I'm thinking the ISO crew probable played around with a bunch of different injection rates to ensure the test doesn't go way off track in giving a valid efficiency rating if loading the filter too fast caused unrealistic results. The test has been around for a good amount of time, and has been tweaked some over the years - I don't know what the changes/revisions were in the test though.
 
ZeeOSix - They want about $162 (non-member pricing) for ISO 4548-12:2017

https://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=ISO+4548-12%3a2017

You may have to input the search string: ISO 4548-12:2017

Since the material is copyrighted, you don't see it for free.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top