Shoot, all this time back on active duty has really messed me up. Clearly, I'm not getting anywhere near enough LSD to keep up with reality. . .
GM isn't so bad!
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Brainwashed??? Significant numbers???
We're talking about cars here, right?
The car buying public on a whole are not fools, period!!!
That's why GM is deep down in the hole where it rightfully belongs.
I'm saying this not because I'm a hater.
Why should I hate a company???
I would love to see GM beating the Japanese and now Koreans left and right, by offering the best product, the best service, the best resale values.
Do you think the so-called Domestic haters would still be lining up for the Japanese inferior product?
This pitty talk about a segment of the American population who can't help themselves but hate the american car manufacturers is outright ridiculous.
Cars ulitimately are appliences.
Do you hate microwaves, because of their manufacturing origins, or the clothing you wear, or a computer you're typing on?
Get real and get off your white horse, you, GM excusers.
Make the best product and see the sales take off through the roof.
No, you screw up the American icon by starving it of the new product and technologies, caving to the Unions that suck your company dry and then cry wolf that the "brainwashed" public hates you cause people won't buy your marginal product.
Even if you finally offer a decent model or two you still can't get it right.
The Solstice, for example.
Watch all those folks who are the traditional import buyers lining up for the a great car that cannot be produced to satisfy the demand thanks to the GM's screwed-up management.
Looks like the Toyota recall is now at 1 million vehicles.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197458,00.html
With all things considered, the gasket problem is huge, because if they go bad, and they do, you end up having to shell out a lot of money to fix the problem.
However, most of GM's problems are fairly simple items. Bad seals, faulty door latches, etc. all easily fixed. The Toyota steering going crazy on you at speed... thats something else entirely. GM is dealing with old problems in a lot of cases. Paying for past sins if you will. Toyota is paying for recent decisions. As far as quality is concerned, they are going down, while GM rises.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197458,00.html
With all things considered, the gasket problem is huge, because if they go bad, and they do, you end up having to shell out a lot of money to fix the problem.
However, most of GM's problems are fairly simple items. Bad seals, faulty door latches, etc. all easily fixed. The Toyota steering going crazy on you at speed... thats something else entirely. GM is dealing with old problems in a lot of cases. Paying for past sins if you will. Toyota is paying for recent decisions. As far as quality is concerned, they are going down, while GM rises.
I totally agree with EKPolk's summary GM vs. toyota (for example).
I myself have paid to have the intake manifold on my GM truck 2 times (at GM dealers), not to mention countless repairs/re-repairs of many similar items that are all defective from the factory. I have spent literally thousands and thousands of dollars in unecessary repairs. Dealership/GM basically told me to pound sand every time.
Contrast this with my family's toyota experience. My dad had a toyota truck with 180k miles (same mileage as my truck). The only thing that EVER went wrong was a headgasket at 120k miles. He had that repaired. Later, Toyota tracked HIM down (4 years after warranty expiry) and sent him a letter stating that if he'd ever had to repair the headgasket they'd reimburse him....and they did so promptly when the vehicle was around 8 years old.
Which experience results in repeat customers? All I can say is my dad just bought a brand new toyota truck and is looking for a camry for my mother.
I like GM vehicles when they're running. I just don't like how GM chooses to build them, and how they have treated me as a customer. I still like GM products, but based on my own experience the toyota is a more hassle free and wiser choice. I'm in the market for a new truck, and because I like them, I'm looking at GM's and others. I've just got this nagging thought...."trick me once, shame on you......." You know how the rest goes.
I myself have paid to have the intake manifold on my GM truck 2 times (at GM dealers), not to mention countless repairs/re-repairs of many similar items that are all defective from the factory. I have spent literally thousands and thousands of dollars in unecessary repairs. Dealership/GM basically told me to pound sand every time.
Contrast this with my family's toyota experience. My dad had a toyota truck with 180k miles (same mileage as my truck). The only thing that EVER went wrong was a headgasket at 120k miles. He had that repaired. Later, Toyota tracked HIM down (4 years after warranty expiry) and sent him a letter stating that if he'd ever had to repair the headgasket they'd reimburse him....and they did so promptly when the vehicle was around 8 years old.
Which experience results in repeat customers? All I can say is my dad just bought a brand new toyota truck and is looking for a camry for my mother.
I like GM vehicles when they're running. I just don't like how GM chooses to build them, and how they have treated me as a customer. I still like GM products, but based on my own experience the toyota is a more hassle free and wiser choice. I'm in the market for a new truck, and because I like them, I'm looking at GM's and others. I've just got this nagging thought...."trick me once, shame on you......." You know how the rest goes.
Easy there vad, I wasn't referring to you. A better example of the phenomenon I was referring to would be a young Marine who worked for me here a while back. This individual was having trouble with an ancient Civic, which it turns out, was why we were having some late-to-work episodes (which, by the way, is a criminal offense under military law). I mentioned that often, relatively late model domestic cars can be an affordable solution, as the depreciation factor has often pushed their prices lower than similar-age imports. Despite never having owned one, or having any real experience with one, he dismissed my suggestion out of hand. It quickly became apparent that this guy would not consider a domestic car for any reason whatsoever. This guy seemed to have real emotion, bordering on outright hatred, for a product he'd never himself experienced, let alone in a bad way. Strange and irrational to me, but again, that's just my perspective. These are the folks to whom I was referring.
[ May 30, 2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
[ May 30, 2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
Here's a simple question. In what model year can it be said that GM has corrected the GM trademarked intake manifold problems?
Not trying to be lippy, just want to know because I'm in the market for a new or slightly used truck.
Not trying to be lippy, just want to know because I'm in the market for a new or slightly used truck.
Jim,
I want to say 2003+ is ok, however I can't confirm that.
With that said, their new line-up of pushrod V6's the intake gaskets don't seem to be a problem anymore. In fact, the reviews on the new 3.5L VVT (that replaced the old 60* 3.1/3.4) are quite good. Now, don't confuse that 3.5L V6 with the other 3.5L V6 that was just an updated version of the old 3.4L V6 (another example of stupidity at GM).
GM has replaced the 60* 3.4L V6 with the 60* 3.5L VVT E85 capable V6 (224hp/220tq.). They have also replaced the 90* 3.8L V6 with the 60* 3.9L VVT E85 capable, active fuel management V6 (230+hp\240tq.).
The new 3.5L & 3.9L pushrod V6's seem to be a huge improvement over the old pushrods. I'm pretty sure the new V6's are a new design from the block up, not just a revision to the old V6's. Supposedly, these new ones are much smoother and have lower NvH (???). I read somewhere from somebody that drove a GM vehicle with one of the new V6's and their new 6-speed auto trans. They said it was an amazing improvement over the old pushrod V6's. It sounded like these engines were just as good if not better than the DOHC engines out there.
See here for more details.
[ May 30, 2006, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: mshu7 ]
I want to say 2003+ is ok, however I can't confirm that.
With that said, their new line-up of pushrod V6's the intake gaskets don't seem to be a problem anymore. In fact, the reviews on the new 3.5L VVT (that replaced the old 60* 3.1/3.4) are quite good. Now, don't confuse that 3.5L V6 with the other 3.5L V6 that was just an updated version of the old 3.4L V6 (another example of stupidity at GM).
GM has replaced the 60* 3.4L V6 with the 60* 3.5L VVT E85 capable V6 (224hp/220tq.). They have also replaced the 90* 3.8L V6 with the 60* 3.9L VVT E85 capable, active fuel management V6 (230+hp\240tq.).
The new 3.5L & 3.9L pushrod V6's seem to be a huge improvement over the old pushrods. I'm pretty sure the new V6's are a new design from the block up, not just a revision to the old V6's. Supposedly, these new ones are much smoother and have lower NvH (???). I read somewhere from somebody that drove a GM vehicle with one of the new V6's and their new 6-speed auto trans. They said it was an amazing improvement over the old pushrod V6's. It sounded like these engines were just as good if not better than the DOHC engines out there.
See here for more details.
[ May 30, 2006, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: mshu7 ]
Not quite sure I can deviate from Vad on this one...
Where did you get the info for that conclusion?
If it's real, then I'd like to know.
Scott
Vad:
Keeping in mind that my personal fleet consists of an 01 Toyota Sequoia, an 04 Infiniti G35, and the straggler - an 87 Cadillac Seville, I understand the advantages (and disadvantages, like $10/qt ATF) of the imports, but I really don't think, in my opinion, that you're giving GM credit where it's due. They've had, and still have, some horrendous issues, and yes, their management follies are amazing, sometimes downright offensive.
In contrast, in the last month, I've experienced a Chevy Impala (3.5L) and a Pontiac GP (3.8L) as rental cars. Both seemed quite solid and likeable. How they'll age, who knows. I don't begrudge you your opinion one bit, you're entitled to it, but where I disagree is with what seems to be blanket condemnation of a company that is, at least from my view, a mix of good and bad, like all the others (of course, one can debate the proportions of the mix...). Why so much heat about this? Don't buy one if you don't want to -- it's really that easy.
By the way, our 87 Cad, although it's got some goofy looking hardware, is actually a nice, solid car and has no issues. Of course, it has only 57k miles and has spent much of its life in a garage, but still, the paint is almost mint, the leather still smells amazing and the underhood hardware is solid. This car has many years and miles left.
Keeping in mind that my personal fleet consists of an 01 Toyota Sequoia, an 04 Infiniti G35, and the straggler - an 87 Cadillac Seville, I understand the advantages (and disadvantages, like $10/qt ATF) of the imports, but I really don't think, in my opinion, that you're giving GM credit where it's due. They've had, and still have, some horrendous issues, and yes, their management follies are amazing, sometimes downright offensive.
In contrast, in the last month, I've experienced a Chevy Impala (3.5L) and a Pontiac GP (3.8L) as rental cars. Both seemed quite solid and likeable. How they'll age, who knows. I don't begrudge you your opinion one bit, you're entitled to it, but where I disagree is with what seems to be blanket condemnation of a company that is, at least from my view, a mix of good and bad, like all the others (of course, one can debate the proportions of the mix...). Why so much heat about this? Don't buy one if you don't want to -- it's really that easy.
By the way, our 87 Cad, although it's got some goofy looking hardware, is actually a nice, solid car and has no issues. Of course, it has only 57k miles and has spent much of its life in a garage, but still, the paint is almost mint, the leather still smells amazing and the underhood hardware is solid. This car has many years and miles left.
How they'll age is anyone's guess...
You're absolutely right.
I hear lots of uncertanity in your voice, my friend.
You would be way more certain speaking of any of the current Toyota models, don't you think?
BTW, GM can not afford a mix of good or bad at this stage.
The survival of the company is at stake.
It just hurts me to see this great American icon to be driven into the ground.
The longer they drag their feet avoiding total reformation the harder will be the landing.
I'm a (legal)
Before I came to the States I've had this image of GM as a symbol of the free American spirit, a symbol of American Greatness if you will.
Imagine my dissapointment upon the arrival when I started to learn about the continuous problems GM was having for the last several decades: losing catch-up game with the Japanese, chronic market share deterioration, worsening image among the American public, spotty quality accros the board leading to miserable resale value retention.
Then I've done some reading and found out that GM is just a dinosaur of auto manufacturing that is totally past its time.
I'm passionate about this because I see how some of your are totally ignoring the developing perfect storm.
All I hear is GM is recovering, GM's problems are just minor, GM cars've never stranded me on the side of the road..
You can call yourselves patriots all day long, but at the end of the day, when GM goes down unnecessarily hard, you will have to look in the mirror and ask yourself why GM has waited for so long.
I simply don't understand this.
The problems at GM are huge!!!
They need to be fixed tommorow or else.
Ignoring them won't make GM profitable once again or make people buy the GM cars which are not the definition of long-term reliability by any means.
[ May 30, 2006, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: vad ]
Vad:
How long have you been here (Welcome, btw!)? I'm not uncertain, just trying to be balanced. For me the balance is leaning, but not slammed over at one stop or the other. The reason I ask "how long" is that if you'd had a chance to see GM, Ford, and Chrysler at their very worst, you'd see why a lot of us think there's hope. IMO (and some will disagree, of course), the heart of the 70s, and perhaps into the 80s was the overall worst time. Many (most) American cars were so laughly bad (especially in retrospect), that the import makers were allowed to get a strong foothold. Yeah, they need to fix every problem they can, as fast as they can. But I see all this as a trend that's moving over the long term, and compared to where things were 15 or 20 years ago, we've come lightyears ahead. Of course, so has the competition. Be a little patient. Yes, there are still plenty of problems, but I think they're headed in the right direction. Quickly or effectively enough -- we'll see (I hope).
How long have you been here (Welcome, btw!)? I'm not uncertain, just trying to be balanced. For me the balance is leaning, but not slammed over at one stop or the other. The reason I ask "how long" is that if you'd had a chance to see GM, Ford, and Chrysler at their very worst, you'd see why a lot of us think there's hope. IMO (and some will disagree, of course), the heart of the 70s, and perhaps into the 80s was the overall worst time. Many (most) American cars were so laughly bad (especially in retrospect), that the import makers were allowed to get a strong foothold. Yeah, they need to fix every problem they can, as fast as they can. But I see all this as a trend that's moving over the long term, and compared to where things were 15 or 20 years ago, we've come lightyears ahead. Of course, so has the competition. Be a little patient. Yes, there are still plenty of problems, but I think they're headed in the right direction. Quickly or effectively enough -- we'll see (I hope).
Hi
Since about mid 2005, FelPro has a "Problem Solver" gasket for the 60s which, I am told, has a metal frame. This is the true gasket for this series of engine.
I am not sure if new 3500s have this feature or not, however the 3900 seems to have coolant plumbed through the LIM in a different fashion over the other 60s.
Over the weekend, I just did the LIM gaskets on a friend's '99 LeSabre. While I did this job as a preventative measure, the LIMs were shot. They were the OEM plastic framed ones and had become badly distorted with the frames having a stress fracture near the bottom edge.
It appears, at some time that the car had the UIM replaced as the UIM was in excellent condition. Someone had added green coolant to remaining dex...what a mess. It looked like polluted ,brackish sea water.
The gaskets of choice was the aluminum LIMs, same as the '06 3800 Series IIIs, the UIM was the Dorman and coolant was Mopar Long Life.
I will take a picture later this week of the OEM LIM gaskets later and post in another thread.
Unfortunatly, that is unknown. Recently, I saw a 606 LIM gasket which, I am told, was the most recent part # for that application, and it was still a plastic framed gasket.
Since about mid 2005, FelPro has a "Problem Solver" gasket for the 60s which, I am told, has a metal frame. This is the true gasket for this series of engine.
I am not sure if new 3500s have this feature or not, however the 3900 seems to have coolant plumbed through the LIM in a different fashion over the other 60s.
Over the weekend, I just did the LIM gaskets on a friend's '99 LeSabre. While I did this job as a preventative measure, the LIMs were shot. They were the OEM plastic framed ones and had become badly distorted with the frames having a stress fracture near the bottom edge.
It appears, at some time that the car had the UIM replaced as the UIM was in excellent condition. Someone had added green coolant to remaining dex...what a mess. It looked like polluted ,brackish sea water.
The gaskets of choice was the aluminum LIMs, same as the '06 3800 Series IIIs, the UIM was the Dorman and coolant was Mopar Long Life.
I will take a picture later this week of the OEM LIM gaskets later and post in another thread.
Thank you for welcoming!
I'm very pro-American btw, but that's a whole new topic.
Well, I came to the States in the second half of the 90's when GM and Ford were flying high thanks to the SUV craze, gas prices were cheap and the stock market was reaching the heavens.
I kinda understand your optimism looking back, but, frankly, I can't share it.
The marketplace is dramatically different.
Since then the Japanese have build a multi-billion car industry on the American soil, employing the American workforce.
You can't impose the tariffs on them. You have to compete.
Forget about quality. It's a given.
Without quality you can't sell any product in the age of internet.
Good attractive designs (there are plenty coming out of GM lately) are not enough either.
You must have a pretty competitive manufacturing base. This is where GM lacks. A lot.
You must have a clear concept of the brand development. Same thing here.
The bloated dealership network is not a good thing either.
GM won't be able to weather the storm with all the glooming labor problems and aging plants.
We can and should blame the GM management for allowing GM/Titanic to sail without clear goals and navigation.
She's on a collision course. The Captain is drunk.
The crew is asleep.
We shall see.
Hey Scott, as you requested (quote: "someone take a jab to get us back on track [LOL!] "), those Toyota's might not be as high quality as everybody thinks...
Toyota recalls more than 565,000 cars
Toyota recalls more than 565,000 cars
Don't worry 7, he'll be back with an apologetic disclaimer/excuse for the "Nippon G-d" company.quote:
Originally posted by mshu7:
Hey Scott, as you requested (quote: "someone take a jab to get us back on track [LOL!] "), those Toyota's might not be as high quality as everybody thinks...
Toyota recalls more than 565,000 cars
My comment was geared toward their product, not their financial problems.
As far as their product is concerned, like I said, they are mostly paying for their past mistakes. They simply need to have more quality control, which it appears that they have really stepped it up with their latest vehicles.
Most of what you and I are batting about are things that can be looked at as matters of degree. On the dealership thing, I do respectfully disagree. Yes, the dealerships themselves must be made to operate in fashion that's consistent with an overall successful corporate game plan. Assuming that they will, the "oversize" dealer network can end up being a huge plus for GM. There are a lot of small-to-medium sized towns that will, for whatever reason, never see a Toyota sign towering over the trees, but they've had a small Chevy dealer for a couple generations. Consider, for example, Crestview FL, a very nice small-medium town about 30 min east of my home via I-10. If you live there, and want convenient dealership access, then Chevrolet is it. In my opinion, if GM keeps the product quality level up, and pushes dealerships in towns like this to build up (not just preserve) their relationships with customers, they could go a long way toward locking the Toyotas and Hondas out of the market. Maybe I sound over-optimistic, if so, well OK. My real point is that GMs "grassroots" presence can be made into a huge advantage, if played correctly and in good faith.
How often is it ever the case that there is a separate GMC/Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac dealer?
Here, the GMC/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac are all at the same dealer, which also sells Hondas.
The Chevy dealer is by itself.
I count 2 GM dealerships for what would likely be a city of 60,000 if it were incorporated.
EDIT: There's a Saturn dealership too, so make that 3.
Here, the GMC/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac are all at the same dealer, which also sells Hondas.
The Chevy dealer is by itself.
I count 2 GM dealerships for what would likely be a city of 60,000 if it were incorporated.
EDIT: There's a Saturn dealership too, so make that 3.
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