GM Did It Again! Volt discussion thread

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
GMs response....

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/...nterstitialskip


There is also this from The Car Connection:

How GM Didn't 'Lie' About The Volt, And Why The Press Is Wrong

Quote:
You may have seen this morning's media frenzy about General Motors' "lie" about the Volt's ability to directly drive the wheels with its range-extending gasoline engine. What you may not know is that the publications screaming "lie!" are doing little more than running self-serving, tabloid-worthy headlines.




Could that have anything to do with practices such as this:

"Back in June, John O'Dell who edits Edmunds.com's eco-obsessed sister site The Green Car Advisor reported on rumors that last minute revisions would have the Volt using a direct mechanical connection between its Ecotec engine and drive wheels. So O'Dell asked GM's spokesman Robert Petersen directly if the rumors were true. Petersen clearly denied the rumors and insisted the Volt (and its European brother the Opel Ampera) would be driven solely by electricity."

Of course that was back in June. Maybe in the 5 months since then, GM somehow managed to pull off a last minute, major design modification and translate it into the exact same production vehicle being tested today. Not a bad achievement for 5 months.

Or maybe the press did what they usually do: simply repeat (or report) whatever GM tells them, by word or by press release.

-Spyder

 

[cchase]

The Volt was introduced as an electric vehicle capable for a 40-mile range on purely electric power. That is still what it is. I'm just not so sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Whether it is a financially wise choice is kind of irrelevant to what its purpose was.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Wouldn't the Fusion or Prius qualify for the same exemption? If not, why not?

If so, your point is moot, and doesn't rebut the other points raised.

Edit: as to electric costs be negligible, that would assume you've found some source of free, off the grid power you're tapping into. Otherwise, whether the source hydroelectric, coal, or nuclear, there is still some cost associated with that energy source.

Sure this energy source may be cheaper than gasoline, but it would have to be significantly cheaper, to pay down the initial $15,000 price difference within anything under 10 years of ownership - and by then you're long out of warranty and hunting for parts on a limited production, 1st generation vehicle that has several expensive systems unique to itself. Good luck on that one.

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder


The Motor Trend test returned 126.7 mpg on their loop.

I know your electric is more expensive in Canada, but according to what I've read. Based on the average US electrical rates, the operational cost for those 40 electric miles will be .02 cents per mile. What does that equate to in mpg?



Wait a minute, are you talking about this "test"?

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1010_2011_chevrolet_volt_test/index.html

Because if you are, I see no mention of MT's actual route, or how many miles they covered on highway and city, there is only one mention, at the end of the article where they list all Volt's specs and gas mileage is among them. So this is your proof that Volt will get 100+mpg's? An article that talks all about how Volt is great and all and doesn't even mention how they arrived with the gas mileage number, c'mon you can do better.

Also, about GM's reply you posted, they claim:
Quote:
There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the Volt’s extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels. In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor. The resulting power flow provides a 10 to 15 percent improvement in highway fuel economy.


But from MT's "test", here is what they say:

Quote:
The surprising news is that, after you deplete the 16-kW-hr battery and the engine switches on, a clutch connects the engine and generator to the planetary transmission so the engine can help turn the wheels directly above 70 mph. This improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10-15 percent.


So which one is it or are you posting these links in hopes nobody will read them and you can prove your point somehow?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
...

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder


Who cares. It's a car for crying out loud, not an investment property. For a personal use vehicle, no one in their right mind expects to do anything other than lose money on a new car.

I haven't explored the economics of making a business use of the vehicle or mixed business / personal use of the vehicle. With the subsidy, depreciation, and potential ability to use no gasoline, the economics could be favorable, maybe very favorable.

These same tired arguments about not breaking even, has to be subsidized, overpriced and inefficient compared to (insert 10 year old stripped down, junky, tiny, dangerous, econobox of choice here) blah, were made about the Prius.

Obviously the people that buy these cars don't care. They're not marketed to people that have to look into their wallet to see if they need a haircut, or the tighter than bark on trees crowd.

 

[Spyder7]

$41,000 dollar price and 40 mile range doesn't correspond well; even GM thinks so, as the 1.4L ICE, coupled with GM's newly coined phrase they casually toss around ("range anxiety") is proof of. It may have originally been conceived as just that. Its not going to sell at that price to do that, and even GM realizes (and indirectly) admits it.

A 40 mile round trip is what - maybe 30 minutes each way? How many things ("amenities") do you suppose this thing is equipped with that are completely at odds with the premisis of a 30 minute trip vehicle.

It may be able to achieve that, but that is not the kind of real world usage the vast majority of auto buyers (of all shapes and sizes) use their vehicles for. For some people (a small minority), that will do it - but how many of them are ready to drop $41,000 on it?

Think back through the evolution of the automobile and the changes its enabled, and motivated, in the way society has involved: interstate transit built from the ground up and continually expanded to enable easy travel across long distances by road; the disappearance in many cities of core "downtown" shopping and the move toward big box chains, strip malls, shopping malls, etc which are located in their own districts, often far removed from rural areas; the exodus to the suburbs of city inhabitants, which increase in size and distance from the city core.

I could go on. But you should get the point by now. A car with a 40 mile range would have been ideal and met the needs of almost all the nation's population - 80 years ago.

Its a nice idea on paper, and it will resonate for the few who can both afford it and who still do their daily routine within that 40 mile radius (across the entire day).

For the rest, read the majority, it needs that 1.4L ICE to sell (its not just there for window dressing) so that the car achieve the highway duty and beyond 40 mile range it will be spooled up to do (else GM wouldn't have to allay any "range anxiety").

Its a Hybrid. Its competition, right now, is the Prius and Fusion, although there is more on the way. It is not a unique or revolutionary product. It is an evolutionary product that differs mainly in how GM chose to implement their own style of hybrid technology.

There is nothing 'one of a kind' about it, unless you narrow your view to GM and close your eyes to the fact that Hybrids existed well before the Volt.

Its good to see GM getting into the game, late though they may be, but let's get carried away and pretend they invented the game with this product, or that it has some marvel brand new technology that completely separates it from the other hybrids. It doesn't. GM may have initially billed it that way, but once you dissect it, its unique only in so far as GM has taken their own twist on existing Hybrid technology (they didn't reinvent the wheel to produce this - they didn't have to as its already been on the market, in a different skin, for years - minus the GM name plate).

-Spyder

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
...

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder


Who cares. It's a car for crying out loud, not an investment property. For a personal use vehicle, no one in their right mind expects to do anything other than lose money on a new car.

I haven't explored the economics of making a business use of the vehicle or mixed business / personal use of the vehicle. With the subsidy, depreciation, and potential ability to use no gasoline, the economics could be favorable, maybe very favorable.

These same tired arguments about not breaking even, has to be subsidized, overpriced and inefficient compared to (insert 10 year old stripped down, junky, tiny, dangerous, econobox of choice here) blah, were made about the Prius.

Obviously the people that buy these cars don't care. They're not marketed to people that have to look into their wallet to see if they need a haircut, or the tighter than bark on trees crowd.


Then why do they buy hybrids? Where is the benefit in all the touted mileage claims, never needing to use gas, etc - if the market are the kind of people who can ignore cost and dispense with exploring alternatives?

Your logic doesn't hold up. Maybe because there's none there, just a whole lot of hyperbole.

-Spyder

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Then why do they buy hybrids?

Are you serious? Have you ever heard of doing something because you can, or just because you want to?

Live, Spyder7. It's what life is for.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Wouldn't the Fusion or Prius qualify for the same exemption? If not, why not?

If so, your point is moot, and doesn't rebut the other points raised.

Edit: as to electric costs be negligible, that would assume you've found some source of free, off the grid power you're tapping into. Otherwise, whether the source hydroelectric, coal, or nuclear, there is still some cost associated with that energy source.

Sure this energy source may be cheaper than gasoline, but it would have to be significantly cheaper, to pay down the initial $15,000 price difference within anything under 10 years of ownership - and by then you're long out of warranty and hunting for parts on a limited production, 1st generation vehicle that has several expensive systems unique to itself. Good luck on that one.

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder


The Motor Trend test returned 126.7 mpg on their loop.

I know your electric is more expensive in Canada, but according to what I've read. Based on the average US electrical rates, the operational cost for those 40 electric miles will be .02 cents per mile. What does that equate to in mpg?



Wait a minute, are you talking about this "test"?

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1010_2011_chevrolet_volt_test/index.html

Because if you are, I see no mention of MT's actual route, or how many miles they covered on highway and city, there is only one mention, at the end of the article where they list all Volt's specs and gas mileage is among them. So this is your proof that Volt will get 100+mpg's? An article that talks all about how Volt is great and all and doesn't even mention how they arrived with the gas mileage number, c'mon you can do better.

Also, about GM's reply you posted, they claim:
Quote:
There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the Volt’s extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels. In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor. The resulting power flow provides a 10 to 15 percent improvement in highway fuel economy.


But from MT's "test", here is what they say:

Quote:
The surprising news is that, after you deplete the 16-kW-hr battery and the engine switches on, a clutch connects the engine and generator to the planetary transmission so the engine can help turn the wheels directly above 70 mph. This improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10-15 percent.


So which one is it or are you posting these links in hopes nobody will read them and you can prove your point somehow?


LOL...Motor Trend listed the mileage as 126.7, do you have proof that their reported number is false? I had no idea someone had to have a complete description of their loop in order to report the findings. If you think MT made the number up or is reporting false numbers, maybe you should take it up with them. Ask Motor Trend to do better? What did I have to do with the way that first test was written?

I'm not trying to prove anything here, the GM link speaks for itself, it's relevant and a direct response from GM regarding this issue.

Besides, if I didn't post the links what would you use to edit and selectively quote?
Which is it? Does MT have the ability and knowledge to run and calculate a proper fuel mileage test. Or are they idiots, which would leave their observations regarding the driveline as suspect at best, wouldn't it?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
$41,000 dollar price and 40 mile range doesn't correspond well; even GM thinks so, as the 1.4L ICE, coupled with GM's newly coined phrase they casually toss around ("range anxiety") is proof of. It may have originally been conceived as just that. Its not going to sell at that price to do that, and even GM realizes (and indirectly) admits it.

A 40 mile round trip is what - maybe 30 minutes each way? How many things ("amenities") do you suppose this thing is equipped with that are completely at odds with the premisis of a 30 minute trip vehicle.

It may be able to achieve that, but that is not the kind of real world usage the vast majority of auto buyers (of all shapes and sizes) use their vehicles for. For some people (a small minority), that will do it - but how many of them are ready to drop $41,000 on it?

Think back through the evolution of the automobile and the changes its enabled, and motivated, in the way society has involved: interstate transit built from the ground up and continually expanded to enable easy travel across long distances by road; the disappearance in many cities of core "downtown" shopping and the move toward big box chains, strip malls, shopping malls, etc which are located in their own districts, often far removed from rural areas; the exodus to the suburbs of city inhabitants, which increase in size and distance from the city core.

I could go on. But you should get the point by now. A car with a 40 mile range would have been ideal and met the needs of almost all the nation's population - 80 years ago.

Its a nice idea on paper, and it will resonate for the few who can both afford it and who still do their daily routine within that 40 mile radius (across the entire day).

For the rest, read the majority, it needs that 1.4L ICE to sell (its not just there for window dressing) so that the car achieve the highway duty and beyond 40 mile range it will be spooled up to do (else GM wouldn't have to allay any "range anxiety").

Its a Hybrid. Its competition, right now, is the Prius and Fusion, although there is more on the way. It is not a unique or revolutionary product. It is an evolutionary product that differs mainly in how GM chose to implement their own style of hybrid technology.

There is nothing 'one of a kind' about it, unless you narrow your view to GM and close your eyes to the fact that Hybrids existed well before the Volt.

Its good to see GM getting into the game, late though they may be, but let's get carried away and pretend they invented the game with this product, or that it has some marvel brand new technology that completely separates it from the other hybrids. It doesn't. GM may have initially billed it that way, but once you dissect it, its unique only in so far as GM has taken their own twist on existing Hybrid technology (they didn't reinvent the wheel to produce this - they didn't have to as its already been on the market, in a different skin, for years - minus the GM name plate).

-Spyder


Talk about hyperbole and a bunch of hot air.

Do you have any statistics at all...just one simple link, that shows what the average daily commute is for an American? Please support your assumption that 40 mile range doesn't cover a large portion of society.

If you actually take the time to look into it, instead of rambling about how GM is "just" doing something evolutionary here, you will find that you are wrong. Just plain and simply wrong. The 40 mile range covers over 60% of the average American commute. BTW, the 60% I'm stateing is an average of between 50 and 70% figures I find in different sources.

 

[KrisZ]

LS2JSTS, way to dodge the issue, are you sure you don't work for GM's PR, you would fit right in

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
LS2JSTS, way to dodge the issue, are you sure you don't work for GM's PR, you would fit right in

Motor Trend reported 126.7 mpg with the Volt. Any info you can provide that refutes their reported number?

If not, you are the one dodging the issue. I'm just reporting what was claimed by Motor Trend, never realized it was encumbant upon me to prove their number is accurate...

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


If you actually take the time to look into it, instead of rambling about how GM is "just" doing something evolutionary here, you will find that you are wrong. Just plain and simply wrong. The 40 mile range covers over 60% of the average American commute. BTW, the 60% I'm stateing is an average of between 50 and 70% figures I find in different sources.



Is that 40 mile commute you cite one-way - or return trip? To be realistic, and have meaning in the context people are using it in, that number is 40 mile total daily driving, or 20 mile distance, round trip, if we are talking commute difference.

Show me your statistics citing how a 20 mile commute is within the range of the majority of Americans. And even that over-states it, since it excludes the many other uses people put their car to beyond driving to and from work.

My "hyperbole" is backed up by contemporary trends concerning urban out-migration, as for the last several decades more and more people have been moving further and further from the city core, and traveling greater distances to work, shop, etc.

If you want proof, pick a handful of major cities and look at historical maps spanning the last several decades. Its not just technological improvements that account for modern cars achieving higher odometer readings than their predecessors - its also the fact that they rack up those miles much faster, doing more freeway driving, as people travel increasingly further distances to work, shop, visit friends in other parts of (bigger) metro areas, etc.

-Spyder

 

[FZ1]

Another GM Hoax!

 

[cchase]

Where was it on the first page where someone mentioned that the GM-haters would be melting keyboards with this news, and look what's happened in this thread...

 

[LS2JSTS]

Still no statistics supporting YOUR claim that it doesnt cover the average commute? I have to prove the negative here? BTW, the latest data available reports a national daily average commute of 33 miles.

Also, you completely ignore what will be the reality for many of the users. Commute to work, plug in, commute home. There are thousands of charging stations being installed at our collective expense. It wont always be just a 40 mile range, depending on situation, it could be a 80 mile range...with 8 hours spent at work, plugged in.

It's the same thing with the Prius, one can always build a scenario where it doesnt make any financial sense. OTOH, there are scenarios and personal uses where it and the Volt will make sense. Not for me, but urban dwellers still do exist.

As to proof for YOUR assumptions....data similar to this would be sufficient if you ever decide to back up your assumptions about average commutes with some sort of facts.....


http://nhts.ornl.gov/2001/pub/STT.pdf


Or you can continue to make assumptions and then ask ME to provide data to refute your assumptions.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7


My "hyperbole" is backed up by contemporary trends concerning urban out-migration, as for the last several decades more and more people have been moving further and further from the city core, and traveling greater distances to work, shop, etc.



No, your hyperbole is based on nothing but your own false assumptions. I have a tid bit for you. Over the last ten years the average daily commute has actually gotten shorter for the average American.

And the number I linked to above, thats a 33 mile ROUND TRIP daily average commute. But hey, don't let facts get in your way, it's only the US Dept of Transportation, what do they know about it?

 

[LTVibe]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
"Back in June, John O'Dell who edits Edmunds.com's eco-obsessed sister site The Green Car Advisor reported on rumors that last minute revisions would have the Volt using a direct mechanical connection between its Ecotec engine and drive wheels. So O'Dell asked GM's spokesman Robert Petersen directly if the rumors were true. Petersen clearly denied the rumors and insisted the Volt (and its European brother the Opel Ampera) would be driven solely by electricity."

Of course that was back in June. Maybe in the 5 months since then, GM somehow managed to pull off a last minute, major design modification and translate it into the exact same production vehicle being tested today. Not a bad achievement for 5 months.

Or maybe the press did what they usually do: simply repeat (or report) whatever GM tells them, by word or by press release.

-Spyder


There is no 'direct mechanical connection between its Ecotec engine and drive wheels':

--“The wheels are driven by the electricity at all times,” said Doug Parks, the Volt’s vehicle line executive.

--The $41,000 Volt has two electric motors, GM explained: One runs the vehicle at all times, and another supplies additional power at higher speeds.

Volt unveiled to applause, barbs over ‘electric’ tag

 

[LS2JSTS]

From your linked DetNews article....

"Several industry analysts dismissed the flap as meaningless."

"...Bragman doesn’t think the blogger uproar will tarnish GM or the Volt’s image with consumers.

“I think it’s a bunch of baloney, frankly,” he said, predicting the buzz will die down soon.

Joe Phillippi, of AutoTrends Consulting, agreed, calling it “a tempest in a teapot.”

“The only people that are going to be really concerned about it is the geeks,” he said.

“Someone who is really keen to buy this is not going to be turned off by this.”



....Couldn't agree more. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[Spyder7]

That works too, as I talked about trends and your data is consistent with the trend I talked of. From page 9 of that report, if you look at the Person Miles Traveled along the bottom of the chart, you will see across time, from where it begins in 1967 to the end of it at 2001, consistent, substantial growth in distance traveled: its more than doubled over that period. I gave the explanation behind the trend your link puts the numbers to (and substantiates); note that when it cuts off at 2001, the distance is continuing to increase.

Present day we are left to speculate, but given the trend, I see nothing to suggest any reduction; more likely it has not only increased, but will continue to increase (the data would have to be plotted across a graph to measure the slope and make any more meaningful projection from it).

So these are not assumptions. They are facts.

Your speculation that the sudden introduction of the Volt will lead to a sudden surge in "plug ins" springing up for daily commuters, is word for word what was speculated back when rumours first surfaced, well over a decade ago, of the hybrid concept cars that Toyota first showcased (before they became a reality). Hasn't happened.

Though it would be a positive development were it to happening now, if any credit can go to GM for it, then its well earned and deserved.

-Spyder

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


....Couldn't agree more. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


Likewise, as far as the Volt goes: it is much ado about nothing. Or to put your MacBeth quote into proper context, its a lousy third act.

-Spyder