GM Did It Again! Volt discussion thread

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
That works too, as I talked about trends and your data is consistent with the trend I talked of. From page 9 of that report, if you look at the Person Miles Traveled along the bottom of the chart, you will see across time, from where it begins in 1967 to the end of it at 2001, consistent, substantial growth in distance traveled: its more than doubled over that period. I gave the explanation behind the trend your link puts the numbers to (and substantiates); note that when it cuts off at 2001, the distance is continuing to increase.

Present day we are left to speculate, but given the trend, I see nothing to suggest any reduction; more likely it has not only increased, but will continue to increase (the data would have to be plotted across a graph to measure the slope and make any more meaningful projection from it).

So these are not assumptions. They are facts.

Your speculation that the sudden introduction of the Volt will lead to a sudden surge in "plug ins" springing up for daily commuters, is word for word what was speculated back when rumours first surfaced, well over a decade ago, of the hybrid concept cars that Toyota first showcased (before they became a reality). Hasn't happened.

Though it would be a positive development were it to happening now, if any credit can go to GM for it, then its well earned and deserved.

-Spyder


Ummmm..."plug ins" are being installed as we speak at office buildings and homes around here. It's happening now...not speculation.

And...just curious, what did the DOT say the average daily commute was? LOL, you quote the rise in average over a thirty year period, but like I said over the last ten years it has actually gone down...marginally I admit, but it has gone down. And besides, I linked that because you claimed the Volt wouldn't cover the average daily commute. I'll ask again, what is the average daily commute in America?

As to the recent decrease....http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,211338,00.html...this data is from the Census Bureau.

 

[Spyder7]

If plug ins are happening now, and the GM Volt is a factor (as I'm guessing it must be, since it never went beyond the speculation stage when the early Toyota concept hybrids appeared eons ago), then the Volt is having a positive impact already.

-Spyder

 

[Spyder7]

Side note: (off topic slightly)

I just recently had an outdoor plug-in installed by my landlord - but it was for my power tools (for body work) rather than my car (either a season late, or a season early, depending on how you look at it).

With heat & light included in my rent, and my commute being under 40 miles round trip (highway is optional), I could run the Volt for free.

It only took 7 pages, but you've made me into me into a Volt fan.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Statistics are for the most part meaningless. They can be made to say whatever you want.

Let's take real world experience. My question would be - how many of us commute 20 miles or less each way? Personally mine is about 34 miles each way, my wife's is about 45 miles each way.
My "statistics" gathered from friends/co-workers is my commute is about the norm. It's obviously going to vary from one part of the country to another. But in areas like southern ca. it's not uncommon for people to commute very long distances.

I'm with Spyder here - I give GM credit for their attempt, but I think they are at best bending the truth a little.

Also as was pointed out - how many of you are rushing out to buy this modern marvel?

 

[Spyder7]

I won't be. I could run it for "free", but then there is the small matter of the monthly payments on 41k US. Gas, as expensive as it is here, is still cheaper (as are 2000 Corolla parts).

-Spyder

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7



It may be able to achieve that, but that is not the kind of real world usage the vast majority of auto buyers (of all shapes and sizes) use their vehicles for. For some people (a small minority), that will do it - but how many of them are ready to drop $41,000 on it?

I could go on. But you should get the point by now. A car with a 40 mile range would have been ideal and met the needs of almost all the nation's population - 80 years ago.

Its a nice idea on paper, and it will resonate for the few who can both afford it and who still do their daily routine within that 40 mile radius (across the entire day).



LOL...while I agree you do discuss trends and for the most part you are right. Unfortunately for you and your assumption based argument, the trends and the average daily commute have nothing to do with each other in a strict one to one ratio. They could, they even might in some instances...but the fact remains for the vast majority of car owners, the average daily commute is well under 40 miles. Why ignore that part of the linked data? Doesn't quite fit with your assumptions above does it?

What do these comments have to do with trends and population centers? The linked DOT data clearly shows an average daily use of under 40 miles, doesn't it? I'll ask you yet again, irrespective of trends, and taking into account the FACT that the daily average commute is under 40 miles. Could you please explain how your assumptions above aren't false?

Explain who these "vast majority" of car buyers are who fall outside the DOT real world data?

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Side note: (off topic slightly)

I just recently had an outdoor plug-in installed by my landlord - but it was for my power tools (for body work) rather than my car (either a season late, or a season early, depending on how you look at it).

With heat & light included in my rent, and my commute being under 40 miles round trip (highway is optional), I could run the Volt for free.

It only took 7 pages, but you've made me into me into a Volt fan.

Good for you! Seriously that's good. Now just fork over the 41K for the car and you are all set!
But for those of us who pay out the nose for electricity (up to .40 a kilowatt hour) - personally I don't see the sense in spending that much money for a car especially a small car. You can buy a Corolla or similar type car for what - under 20K? That 21K you would save would buy a lot of gas - even at the current price here in San Diego of roughly 3.15 a gallon.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
If plug ins are happening now, and the GM Volt is a factor (as I'm guessing it must be, since it never went beyond the speculation stage when the early Toyota concept hybrids appeared eons ago), then the Volt is having a positive impact already.

-Spyder


Well, I know DTE(Detroit Edison) is installing a number of them around Detroit. At the GM HQ and in Warren they already have a bunch of them installed.
It'll take time, but it's happening, all progress is slow at first. Many are too young or dont know that petrol stations were subsidized by the federal government for years. All those gas stations didnt just appear overnight. Think about driving your car back in 1910...no gas stations all around us, heck the roads were garbage as well. This new electrical infrastructure will take time as well, but it's coming.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


LOL...while I agree you do discuss trends and for the most part you are right. Unfortunately for you and your assumption based argument, the trends and the average daily commute have nothing to do with each other in a strict one to one ratio. They could, they even might in some instances...but the fact remains for the vast majority of car owners, the average daily commute is well under 40 miles. Why ignore that part of the linked data? Doesn't quite fit with your assumptions above does it?

What do these comments have to do with trends and population centers? The linked DOT data clearly shows an average daily use of under 40 miles, doesn't it? I'll ask you yet again, irrespective of trends, and taking into account the FACT that the daily average commute is under 40 miles. Could you please explain how your assumptions above aren't false?

Explain who these "vast majority" of car buyers are who fall outside the DOT real world data?



Meaningless! Like I said previously it depends on where you live. I notice they say "daily average". Yes some are going to be below that but many are going to be above it.
Not to mention (without going into politics) I seem to have trouble trusting or putting much faith in ANYTHING a government agency states!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Side note: (off topic slightly)

I just recently had an outdoor plug-in installed by my landlord - but it was for my power tools (for body work) rather than my car (either a season late, or a season early, depending on how you look at it).

With heat & light included in my rent, and my commute being under 40 miles round trip (highway is optional), I could run the Volt for free.

It only took 7 pages, but you've made me into me into a Volt fan.

LOL...Frankly, I'm not a fan, at all. I think it's a money pit mistake on GMs part.

I just dont get those who would point to one situation or set of circumstances and base their judgment of the car on that alone. Take oldmaninsc for example, he says statistics are misleading, well they sure can be. But in this case he couldn't be more factually wrong. The statistic that the average daily commute is well under 40 miles points out the fact that many, many drivers are even well below that figure. Thats how one arrives at an average, oldmaninsc above the average, and many others well below the average. That fact is seemingly lost on people who chime in and say..."Well my commute is X or my wifes is Y", so they dismiss the statistics, some cant get beyond their own myopic view of the world. Even though the DOT statistics clearly show that many DONT share oldmans driving habits. Silly on it's surface, but yet, there it is.

For some it will make sense, for me and many others not so much....it is what it is.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


LOL...while I agree you do discuss trends and for the most part you are right. Unfortunately for you and your assumption based argument, the trends and the average daily commute have nothing to do with each other in a strict one to one ratio. They could, they even might in some instances...but the fact remains for the majority of car owners, the average daily commute is well under 40 miles. Why ignore that part of the linked data? Doesn't quite fit with your assumptions above does it?

What do these comments have to do with trends and population centers? The linked DOT data clearly shows an average daily use of under 40 miles, doesn't it? I'll ask you yet again, irrespective of trends, and taking into account the FACT that the daily average commute is under 40 miles. Could you please explain how your assumptions above aren't false?

Explain who these "vast majority" of car buyers are who fall outside the DOT real world data?



Meaningless! Like I said previously it depends on where you live. I notice they say "daily average". Yes some are going to be below that but many are going to be above it.
Not to mention (without going into politics) I seem to have trouble trusting or putting much faith in ANYTHING a government agency states!


The only thing meaningless here is your contention that the data is meaningless.

Of course some will be above the average, just as many others will be below it, thanks for the observation Capt Obvious!

The inconvenient fact for you is that the majority of car owners drive their car less than 40 miles per day. I linked to the real data involved. I welcome any real world data that you can post that refutes that claim. Of course that would be data outside of you and your wife and your small circle of friends...lol.

Is it really that hard to understand that just because you drive over the average daily commute that doesnt make it true for everyone. Should I link to the definition of "average" or can you acknowledge that your personal use doesn't define the broad universe of uses?

 

[LTVibe]

2011 Volt "GM Lied" Debate: They Hate GM, They Really Hate GM

Quote:
But the bigger point here--and the place we think GM clearly fell down--is that a surprisingly large number of people truly loathe, despise, and hate General Motors, and will take any opportunity to bash the company.

That's a handicap that other electric-car makers (e.g. Nissan, Coda) simply don't have to cope with. The 2011 Nissan Leaf electric car has a range of up to 100 miles, and Chevy is energetically trying to paint that as inadequate, even downright dangerous.

Could the so-called Voltgate hoohah overshadow a serious discussion of the two cars' relative capacities and merits? Yep.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

LOL...while I agree you do discuss trends and for the most part you are right. Unfortunately for you and your assumption based argument, the trends and the average daily commute have nothing to do with each other in a strict one to one ratio. They could, they even might in some instances...but the fact remains for the vast majority of car owners, the average daily commute is well under 40 miles. Why ignore that part of the linked data? Doesn't quite fit with your assumptions above does it?

What do these comments have to do with trends and population centers? The linked DOT data clearly shows an average daily use of under 40 miles, doesn't it? I'll ask you yet again, irrespective of trends, and taking into account the FACT that the daily average commute is under 40 miles. Could you please explain how your assumptions above aren't false?

Explain who these "vast majority" of car buyers are who fall outside the DOT real world data?



Once hard statistics are brought in, I don't dispute them; at most I will look for a context to fit them into. My statements were made based on a (basic, as its not my field) understanding of urban growth trends, and how they've been shaped (partly) by the automobile and the greater range of travel its afforded to society; unfortunately, as your statistics show, I overshot the point.

There are relevant, contextual factors that could be further dissected to see how they relate to the discussion - but I would as soon concede them and the point than to dissect them (which is not to take anything away from the data, nor imply its invalid).

I have made points in favour, and against the Volt. Big points in favor of it: GM is finally stepping into the hybrid market, and doing so with its own design that it holds exclusive rights to (the latter may be especially beneficial from a recovery perspective, as they can use it to license technology to other players and thereby secure additional revenue streams, while using it to pay down the R&D costs); given their size, this move on their part should further legitimize hybrid technology, and may spur creation of supporting infrastructure. All of this good, for GM specifically, and the hybrid market in general.

Major point (remaining) against them is that I still feel they have done more to muddy the waters surrounding what the Volt is, and is not, than they are accepting credit for. Ultimately, that may not impact sales, and sometimes even this type of "negative" press can be good press.

Only other one is subjective: I feel the asking price is high, relative to the competition. That said, the competition has had a big head start on paying down R&D costs, and has also established it well enough that their price benefits from lower cost of scale production prices. GM doesn't have those advantages with the Volt, so its to be expected that - initially at least - it should need to be priced higher, lest GM is willing to sell it at loss to create the market for it. As the Prius and Fusion prove, the market is already there, so GM doesn't have to do this.

-Spyder

 

[LS2JSTS]

Well, I whole heartedly agree with your point that the price is to high. A pricing structure that is propped up at least to some extent by the huge Federal and State subsidies.

Which btw, is my biggest complaint with the Volt. If it can't be sold at a profit, and requires subsidies, then who really needs it? But then I get real and look back at history, as I said before the ICE automobile needed huge investment by the government to make it feasible at the beginning. Hopefully the Hybrid/Electric transition will be as quick/economical...but I tend to doubt it.
That coupled with the fact/belief, that the electric solution won't work unless America embraces nuclear energy, something we have historically been unwilling to do.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I won't be. I could run it for "free", but then there is the small matter of the monthly payments on 41k US. Gas, as expensive as it is here, is still cheaper (as are 2000 Corolla parts).

-Spyder


The lease payment is $350/month I think.

Can you buy a Volt? I thought it was going to be lease only, at least at the start up.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
My point exactly. Let's not get caught up on the process, focus on the product.

If only GM and it's owners would do that.

I'm on pins and needles waiting for an FTC false advertising investigation...

 

[OneEyeJack]

The Volt is getting a big publicity push because Nancy wants to cancel the Camaro and build more cars like the Volt. Right now all this talk is great but until the Volt gets into the hands of a few hundred thousand users like the Prius, we won't know much about it. We should all hope that GM does not blow it. The company has the design and engineering talent to build something really useful, it's the bean counters and politicians that are in the way.

I like the mechanical reliability of the Prius. I like the fact that the transmission is not a CVT, but a planetary transmission with only one gear forward and no reverse gear. I also like the hardware that stores hot coolant for later restarts and an oil system that is made for starts and stops. I drove one for 6 months and it was like driving a moving arcade game. The heaver the traffic in downtown LA got, the better the mileage, and trying to stay in stealth mode as long as possible was fun. I would hope that the Volt would be as much fun to drive. But just remember, driving a car like the Prius is different and you have to gain some new skills. You have to forget shooting off ramps and carving canyons and learn how to play the arcade game.

 

[Brons2]

My mother offered to let her take me take her Insight to Lubbock earlier this fall, I took her up on that offer because my Rondo gets 28mpg tops on the highway and her car had the promise of at least lower 40s.

I actually enjoyed the moving arcade game aspect of driving the Insight much more than I thought I would. I got 44mpg on the way up to Lubbock from Austin with the cruise set at 73 and the air conditioning on. On the way back, I decided to try for 50mpg. I set the cruise at 60 and left the AC off. When I got to Brownwood, TX which is about halfway back, I was at 50.2 MPG but there are a lot of hills between Brownwood and Austin and so I didn't quite make 50MPG, but rather a mere 49.7 MPG.

Looking at the Volt, it would actually be extremely well adapted to my driving habits, I have a 2.2 mile commute to work, but then I do come home for lunch every day, so that's 8.8 miles only. Most of the side trips around here are within 3 miles or so of the house. I take a 20 mile roundtrip to my chiropractor once a week on Thursdays.

I think overall I could probably keep it in EV mode 80-90% of the time. The climate here is pretty temperate most of the time and I only run the AC in my car if the temp is above 95F usually. There are some cool mornings in December and January but with a 2.2 mile commute my heater never gets warmed up anyways, so it would be no great loss leaving it off in the Volt.

$41,000 is high dollar but I'd have to look at all the tax incentives involved. And I wonder if only occasionally using the gas engine would reduce maintenance requirements.

I also have my house a bit torn up right now, good time to drop a couple of 10/2s into the garage. I'm probably going to do this no matter what, in anticipation of future electric cars.

As I understand it they are only going to sell 10,000 of these this year but hopefully availability will increase over time. We'll see what it looks like down the road. Maybe in a couple of years.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I have made points in favour, and against the Volt. Big points in favor of it: GM is finally stepping into the hybrid market, and doing so with its own design that it holds exclusive rights to


It's not their own design, it's a Prius with a heap of (superfluous) clutches thrown in to obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)...

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I have made points in favour, and against the Volt. Big points in favor of it: GM is finally stepping into the hybrid market, and doing so with its own design that it holds exclusive rights to


It's not their own design, it's a Prius with a heap of (superfluous) clutches thrown in to obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)...


GM did design their system, but like anything automotive, well their designs will be similar to something else.

If what you're saying can be taken literally, then no one designs their own engines, since they are basically copies of the steam engine, no one designs tires, they just throw in rubber and pretty thread patterns to "obfuscate the design (while adding complexity and unreliability)", but all they did is copy some caveman's design.

I have my gripes with GM, but let's not bash them on everything because it's "fashionable".