GM Did It Again! Volt discussion thread

[Win]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
....

I call it smarter, more prudent engineering to move to IC with battery assist over some reasonably low speed. Let the battery ops be best suited for what they are - low speed ops.



Absolutely, griping because the Volt is not 100% electric motor driven 100% of the time is absurd.

Comparing it to a train (or a diesel electric submarine) is likewise absurd - both move at a speed orders of magnitude less than 70 mph last I checked, and they have a bit more room for onboard equipment, as well as a completely different transport mission. Since an electric motor can deliver 100% of it's torque at 0 rpm, a motor generator setup is optimum for a train that has to start and pull a massive load at low speeds. Can't see how that compares to a passenger automobile in any way.

Maybe Edmunds should provide some attribution for the quotes they rely upon ( I didn't see any ), so one can make sure they are not taken out of context or just made up. Of course out of context quotes generally make the best hatchet jobs, and I'm guessing that people that read their tripe are likely not the brightest bulbs in the box.

This is good news as far as I am concerned - I've thought about getting one of these and one of my concerns was that it would not have the power and range to cross the Boston mountains that separate our two residences at freeway speeds (most econoboxes struggle with inadequate power to pull these grades). Apparently it does.

So, what we are left with is that it can run totally electric around town for a longer distance than the other leading hybrid, and can run on a mechanically connected motor at high speeds for long distances that the other newcomer, the Leaf, can't.

In a normal world, the Volt would be called brilliant

.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Let the battery ops be best suited for what they are - low speed ops.


Don't forget about Peukert's Law, which is that as the discharge rate of a battery increases, the capacity of that battery decreases.

In other words, a battery rated at 10AH is only rated as such at the C/10 rate (that is, one amp for 10 hours). If you tried to draw C/1 (10 amps), you might only get 45 minutes, not an hour.



Depends upon the cell design. Power cells and energy cells have substantially different capability to access the stored energy. Look at some of the ultra high power cells out there. A 5Ah cell will still give 5Ah at 400C in some cases, whereas an energy bias cell won't give a full 5Ah at 5C.

Its all in the design... And Im not sure if Peukert's law has been fully extrapolated to modern chemistries and extremely high rates for all cell designs...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
This is what GM is hailing it as:

"The Chevrolet Volt is not a hybrid. It is a one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle designed and engineered to operate in all climates."

Now tell me, precisely, how you do reconcile a 1.4L internal combustion gasoline powered engine with a " one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle."

Again there is no problem from my perspective with it being what it is. I do see a problem for GM in trying to reconcile the two statements when payment is due.

That is not my problem. That is GM's problem. And there is nothing "bashing" involved in pointing out a blatant, black and white contradiction for what it is.

-Spyder


When the toyota prius has Li-ion batteries and a plug-in capability with the same range, then we will talk. Until then, I see it as quite unique. What else has both the range on gasoline AND electric that the volt has?

There have been a few burned up prius that have installed Li-ion piggyback batteries that give a capability similar to the volt. It is not an easy mission.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Man I wish I had some money to spend irresponsibly!

I'd have been willing to bet that I could get an electric motor powered Ford/Kia Festiva or Suzuki/GM Sprint to cruise at 70mph for a fair distance with a bank of lead acid batteries being continously recharged with my Chinese OHV Honda clone generator.

I understand that it can't run like that all day... not on 4500 rated watts. But probably for a fair distance.

I might have to build a small trailer for the generator....but that's beside the point.

http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

 

[mechtech2]

I worked for GM Electromotive division for 7 years.
The 'gas pedal' is a lever from 1 to 10.

They are not a paradigm of efficiency - the GEs version evolved better in this respect, and customers who saw the future gravitated away from GM's old design, even though they were simpler.

Sure, cars can have gas or diesel engines that operate at a mono speed for best efficiency and torque. But what about the 99% of the time that you do not need full torque? We are then back to varied engine speeds, whether we drive an electric motor or conventional types.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Seen on another board:

"The Chevy Volt will be the first car to simultaneously qualify for a Green car credit AND Cash for Clunkers."

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Chevy Volt = $40,000 hybrid

Toyota Prius = $25,000 hybrid

Bottom line.

-Spyder


Toyota Prius = 30-40mpg

Chevrolet Volt = 100+ mpg

Bottom line?

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Look at some of the ultra high power cells out there. A 5Ah cell will still give 5Ah at 400C in some cases, whereas an energy bias cell won't give a full 5Ah at 5C.


Does that 5AH ultra high power cell still only give 5AH at C/10?

They can give the AH rating at any discharge rate they want. For the majority of batteries I deal with, it's either C/10 or C/20.

There are "high rate" UPS batteries with the amp-hour rating specified at a much higher discharge rates. How these differ from regular SLAs, I'm not sure. I think they may well be a gimmick--they turned up on the market within the last few years. UPSs previously just used "standard" SLAs.



Quote:
Its all in the design... And Im not sure if Peukert's law has been fully extrapolated to modern chemistries and extremely high rates for all cell designs...


It's easy enough to test. Take a cell. Charge it up. Measure what went in, then discharge it at a high rate. Measure what comes out.

Do the same for a cell discharged at a low rate. Then you'll know.

My hypothesis is that all cell chemistries will show the Peukert effect to some degree.

 

[ls1mike]

Obviously you guys have not spent enough time around submarine batteries or diesel electric boats.

 

[Steve S]

I will wait for the Nissan Leaf or what ever it is called . I haver never liked Nissan products at all. G.M. is even lower on my list.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Obviously you guys have not spent enough time around submarine batteries or diesel electric boats.
I bet you could tell us lots of great sub stories but can't!!! I will not ask.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I worked for GM Electromotive division for 7 years.
The 'gas pedal' is a lever from 1 to 10.

They are not a paradigm of efficiency - the GEs version evolved better in this respect, and customers who saw the future gravitated away from GM's old design, even though they were simpler.

Sure, cars can have gas or diesel engines that operate at a mono speed for best efficiency and torque. But what about the 99% of the time that you do not need full torque? We are then back to varied engine speeds, whether we drive an electric motor or conventional types.



Would that really need to be the case with a battery as a store of energy? The engine could cycle on and off similar to the thermostat in your home. When the SOC of the battery reached a level requiring recharge, the engine would run topping off the battery, or would run in circumstances where maximum power was needed.

What I'm not is a battery expert, so I don't know what that does to the battery life. So what I'm suggesting may not be good in terms of battery life.

However, it's essentially what is done with the hybrids. Power is drawn from the battery until the battery's SOC reaches a certain floor value. Once that value is reached, power is provided by the IC engine.

If they can do that with a hybrid, why can't they do that with a car driven without the engine physically connected in the driveline?

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
....

I call it smarter, more prudent engineering to move to IC with battery assist over some reasonably low speed. Let the battery ops be best suited for what they are - low speed ops.



Absolutely, griping because the Volt is not 100% electric motor driven 100% of the time is absurd.

Comparing it to a train (or a diesel electric submarine) is likewise absurd - both move at a speed orders of magnitude less than 70 mph last I checked, and they have a bit more room for onboard equipment, as well as a completely different transport mission. Since an electric motor can deliver 100% of it's torque at 0 rpm, a motor generator setup is optimum for a train that has to start and pull a massive load at low speeds. Can't see how that compares to a passenger automobile in any way.

Maybe Edmunds should provide some attribution for the quotes they rely upon ( I didn't see any ), so one can make sure they are not taken out of context or just made up. Of course out of context quotes generally make the best hatchet jobs, and I'm guessing that people that read their tripe are likely not the brightest bulbs in the box.

This is good news as far as I am concerned - I've thought about getting one of these and one of my concerns was that it would not have the power and range to cross the Boston mountains that separate our two residences at freeway speeds (most econoboxes struggle with inadequate power to pull these grades). Apparently it does.

So, what we are left with is that it can run totally electric around town for a longer distance than the other leading hybrid, and can run on a mechanically connected motor at high speeds for long distances that the other newcomer, the Leaf, can't.

In a normal world, the Volt would be called brilliant

.



It's not absurd to compare trains to this car as trains do move at speeds near 70 MPH and towing much more than a typical car does.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Ford chose to license Toyota hybrid technology


Not quite.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[18] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[19] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[19] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[19]

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Ford chose to license Toyota hybrid technology




Not quite.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[18] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[19] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[19] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[19]

Wow I sure hope you get paid!

So " licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology" and "hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained" (from who?) and they get their transmissions from a company that Toyota owns...

Okay.. Clear as mud.

Interesting that how the Hybrid parts and tech for Ford gets into a GM thread...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Ford chose to license Toyota hybrid technology




Not quite.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[18] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[19] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[19] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[19]

Wow I sure hope you get paid!

So " licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology" and "hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained" (from who?) and they get their transmissions from a company that Toyota owns...

Okay.. Clear as mud.

Interesting that how the Hybrid parts and tech for Ford gets into a GM thread...

Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies,

*snip*

Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.


I think that is pretty clear?

I saw something I thought was wrong. So I corrected it. I thought that was part of the philosophy behind this site. You know... Correct information?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Look at some of the ultra high power cells out there. A 5Ah cell will still give 5Ah at 400C in some cases, whereas an energy bias cell won't give a full 5Ah at 5C.


Does that 5AH ultra high power cell still only give 5AH at C/10?

They can give the AH rating at any discharge rate they want. For the majority of batteries I deal with, it's either C/10 or C/20.

There are "high rate" UPS batteries with the amp-hour rating specified at a much higher discharge rates. How these differ from regular SLAs, I'm not sure. I think they may well be a gimmick--they turned up on the market within the last few years. UPSs previously just used "standard" SLAs.



Quote:
Its all in the design... And Im not sure if Peukert's law has been fully extrapolated to modern chemistries and extremely high rates for all cell designs...


It's easy enough to test. Take a cell. Charge it up. Measure what went in, then discharge it at a high rate. Measure what comes out.

Do the same for a cell discharged at a low rate. Then you'll know.

My hypothesis is that all cell chemistries will show the Peukert effect to some degree.


You are thinking exactly along the lines of an Enersys or C+D data sheet... Im looking at them right now. High power Li-ion cells, like all other Li-ion cells Ive seen, are rated at C/1. The difference is that an "energy cell" may get 50% of the C/1 capacity at 5C, whereas a true power cell can get nearly C/1 capacity at hundreds of C! The cell Im citing is the Saft VL5U. 5.5Ah at 1C, 5.2Ah at 400C. The VL12V, which is not as high a power cell, shows ~80% of 1C energy at 125C.

Of course all cells do have the I^2 R heating issue, and this is going to turn into energy loss and inefficiency... but cells designed for high rate do not have as much of an issue. Li-ion does not polarize the way Pb-A does.

BTW, Im looking at the C+D high rate batteries right now... Enersys at least gives a 2-min rating, C+D just claims 500Amax without a time commitment to it. I agree that a lot of it looks to be marketing...

 

[Shannow]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090082171.pdf

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Obviously you guys have not spent enough time around submarine batteries or diesel electric boats.
I bet you could tell us lots of great sub stories but can't!!! I will not ask.

Well I say that because it takes a LONG time to charge up after cycling. While it may be quiet it is not the most efficient and a heavy way to move something. The requires a lot of extra equipment you just are not putting in a car unless, you want it to weigh a metric butt ton or be a one seater.

My understanding of trains is they don't have have a storage battery. The Diesel runs constantly to run the generators and electric motors. What you get is being able to daisy chain the engines together so the electrical stuff runs in at the same power levels, which is hard to do with an engine, in addition you get almost instant torque.
Why don't you ever see Conrail or CSX chugging along with the diesel shut down?

To me that is not the same thing as running on the battery after a charge like a hybrid . The diesel is always turning the genearator.
So you have a hybrid which requires the that engine run all the time.
A true electric car is still a long way from being efficent. You still have to figure out how to make good batteries that keep a charge.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

Now I know what happened to my ex-girlfriend's diesel Rabbit.

It was that color tan with those wheel covers!

It had so much rust on the A-pillars that you could stick your hands through some of the holes. I have no idea how the glass stayed in.

But it couldn't propel itself to 70mph much less 1/3rd of itself and another Rabbit. But it would run. WOT spewing a sky darkening black cloud at 62mph.(probably still getting 50mpg in the process)