GM Did It Again! Volt discussion thread

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


When the toyota prius has Li-ion batteries and a plug-in capability with the same range, then we will talk. Until then, I see it as quite unique. What else has both the range on gasoline AND electric that the volt has?

There have been a few burned up prius that have installed Li-ion piggyback batteries that give a capability similar to the volt. It is not an easy mission.


Different POV. GM has hailed this as a one of a kind, revolutionary, all electric powered vehicle. It isn't. It is more evolutionary than revolutionary.

And there is nothing wrong with it if the concept, and necessary compromises made for it to deliver the real world usage it will be required to, delivers better fuel efficiency than other hybrids - this could provide some justification to a higher price tag; especially when aesthetics are factored in and its buyers chose it over other hybrids based on that preference as well.

That GM is offering what appears to be a very promising hybrid is, to me, a good thing in itself and a move in the right direction (diversification into technology that demand will increase for over time).

No issues with the product as is, or GM taking this step (to the contrary, I will repeat again that I see both as being good moves on their part).

Only issue is how they presenting it as something that it isn't. This purely an issue with the marketing side, as this type of tactic has the potential to generate negative press and controversy that may alienate some potential buyers. To me it seems better to embrace the product for what it is, and concentrate on marketing it as just that.

I think the product can stand well on its own merits - GM's marketing department either seems to think otherwise, or by depicting it as something other than it is, may wind up sabotaging the product before it even hits the show room when buyers begin to question the marketing, and that spills over into perceptions of the product itself.

It will lead to people assuming that the car is merely a Prius in different clothing, at a $15,000 higher price tag.

-Spyder

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Thank you for the correction. I knew Ford was paying Toyota licensing fees, but obviously did know that there was more to the story.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Thank you for the correction. I knew Ford was paying Toyota licensing fees, but obviously did know that there was more to the story.


You are very welcome sir. I imagine this is one of those "great minds" situations. Since both technologies seem to have played out very well in the real world.

I'm quite interested to see how GM's offering fairs in comparison.

 

[OneEyeJack]

I hear that Toyota looses money on every hybrid sold. Do they loose money on the physical stuff that makes the car or do they loose money charging themselves for the technology they developed to engineer the systems. I can imagine that the algorithms that run on the processors that control these hybrid systems are a bit complicated. On a Toyota for example, you can't bleed your own brakes without special computer controlled tools because of the combination of mechanical brakes and the regenerative system that either charges the main battery or if charged turns the braking back to the mechanical brakes. The one positive thing that hybrid technology will do for dealers is drive more service business their way and out of the hands of the owner/mechanic.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090082171.pdf


Spent the last couple of hours examining the patent (that looks like, and is timed right) for this.

Firstly, GM claimed that the volt had an engine that would charge the batteries when required...so does a Prius.

GM claimed that the car had a significant fuel free range, due to it's plug in capability...just like the Prius doesn't...install similar sized batteries, and a plug, and by the laws of Physics, the Prius would get 100MPG (allegedly) of petrol, and some miles per Kg of coal, and or fractional grammes of Uranium...i.e the Volt is neither more or less than a Prius that has an additional, invisible to the naked eye assistant genie (your power point, and you still have to pay him).

Refer to Figure 3 of the patent, it's the simplest depiction of the system. Look at item 12, the engine, and see that there is a dotted engine...that, for people who build models, defines an alternative arrangement. Says that MG1 (sorry, M/G A) can be either coupled to the engine directly, or through a clutch.

M/G B feeds some part of an epicyclic gear train (although the patent makes it clear that it's not necessarily an epicyclic gear train, it could be another arrangement. Grab some lego, and you can come up with a few arrangements that aren't technically epicyclic, but can be called differentials, or torque splitters that would be alternative.

M/G B provides speed/direction/power control by two methods:
a) fix element C of the (not necessarily epicyclic) unit (through the clutch C1 to Earth), and vary the speed of M/G B...forwards/backwards - electric mode; or
b) Control element C of the (not necessarily epicyclic) unit through a combination of M/G A, Clutch C-2 (C-1 released) and the engine (with or without clutch between them).

In part b) of the above, the engine has direct action to the wheels, albeit by fighting M/G B.

Charge the batteries with engine on, and clutch C2 disengaged.

Shannow's abridged notation of the issue :
* I honestly thought from what Chev were telling early, that there was no mechanical link to a dinky little high efficiency engine to the wheels, and always felt that it would look like a slowly flailing whale beaching itself as it ran our of stored charge...to hold 70MPH, needs 70MPH of power available...
* The patent is an analogue of the Toyota system (which as I've shown before had a mechanical/hydraulic variant nearly 100 years ago)...It's more comlicated, using multiple clutches and mechanical earths to make it different...I'm not quite sure that it is different enough to avoid an infringement action. Both sides could be argued effectively.
* presuming similar componentry on the engine and electrics, it will be less reliable than the Prius system...there's more stuff to fail.

AND

The only real world difference to this and a Prius is plug in and battery...and they seem to be a really expensive option.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris

Ford chose to license Toyota hybrid technology




Not quite.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[18] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[19] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[19] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[19]

Wow I sure hope you get paid!

So " licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology" and "hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained" (from who?) and they get their transmissions from a company that Toyota owns...

Okay.. Clear as mud.

Interesting that how the Hybrid parts and tech for Ford gets into a GM thread...

It's entirely appropriate to what is obviously a hybrid discussion given the latest revelations about the Volt with grid top-up...particularly when you look at the GM patent.

If you can't understand it, PM me for details.

 

[Shannow]

Sorry, Fig 1, not 3.

Take out all of the (superfluous) clutches...they all are.

Hook M/G A to input B on item 20.

Hook Engine up to input C on item 20.

There's Prius.

Take the above, and move to fig 5.

Add 91 (Off board power, i.e. the grid), and enlarge 86 (ESD)...

and a Prius with grid top-up and less complexity.

 

[Spyder7]

Reading that highway ICE-on usage will yield 36 mpg on the Volt - about exactly what I get in my 10 year old, 1.8L $2,000 Corolla. I don't think its realistic to believe its going to be bought for $41,000 and then used strictly for inner-city, short range driving only.

In combined city/highway it'll see better mileage - compared to my 10 year old, $2,000 Corolla. A realistic appraisal of it would take into account combined city/highway figures, particularly given its price - and the fact that GM has coined a new phrase ("range anxiety") to stress that this not intended as a short-range only vehicle, but designed to be suitable for every type of usage any other passenger car - hybrid or not - sees.

Now if it were a $1,500 Scooter, then sure, inner city put-putting around would be the only relevant factor. But it isn't.

-Spyder

 

[Spyder7]

Directly from the Popular Mechanics road test:

Fuel Economy

In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway.

Isn't this close to GM's claimed EPA rating for the Equinox? The highway numbers are at least close. Remarkable how a revolutionary, one of a kind, 100% electric car burns almost as much fuel as the gasoline powered SUV from the same company.

Maybe it'll do better in the hands of the reasonably well off inner city dwellers who can afford its $41,000 price tag and never drive it more than 30 or 40 miles in any given day, or let it ever see the highway. That would also avoid any "range anxiety" that GM says the Volt will soothe.

Range Anxiety. I wonder if that one will appear in the anxiety & phobia disorder section of the next revised Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

-Spyder

 

[KrisZ]

Don't bother with facts and reason, GM said that Volt will get 230mpg and some here just refuse to think rationally and blindly believe in this number.

Having said that, since GM is government owned, I am confident that the EPA rating will be very close to 230mpg, GM and government will ensure that. So I know the blind GM supporters will jump on that and say "I told you so", too bad REAL WORLD fuel economy will be nothing of that sort.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Chevy Volt = $40,000 hybrid

Toyota Prius = $25,000 hybrid

Bottom line.

-Spyder


Toyota Prius = 30-40mpg


Now that's just amusing
Chevrolet Volt = 100+ mpg

Bottom line?


Now that's just amusing

Let me break up some numbers for you and I'm going to work with your numbers first.

Let's see, Prius gets 35mpg

- at 20,000 miles per year it will use up 571.427 gallons of fuel, at $3.5/gallon, that is $2000 per year.

Volts gets 100mpg
- at 20,000 miles per year it will use up 200 gallons of fuel, at $3.5/gallon, that is $700 per year.

- $40,000 - $25,000 = $15,000
- $15,000 / $1300 = 11.5 years to break even on the Volt.

Heck, even if your commute was 100% electric, and you never had to put a drop of gas in the thing, it would take 7.5 years to break even on the Volt.

So... bottom line????

... and before you even get back to me, let me answer it for you.

Aside from technological endeavor for GM, Volt makes absolutely no sense to an average person, except for celebrities caring only about their “green” image.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Chevy Volt = $40,000 hybrid

Toyota Prius = $25,000 hybrid

Bottom line.

-Spyder


Toyota Prius = 30-40mpg


Now that's just amusing
Chevrolet Volt = 100+ mpg

Bottom line?


Now that's just amusing

Let me break up some numbers for you and I'm going to work with your numbers first.

Let's see, Prius gets 35mpg

- at 20,000 miles per year it will use up 571.427 gallons of fuel, at $3.5/gallon, that is $2000 per year.

Volts gets 100mpg
- at 20,000 miles per year it will use up 200 gallons of fuel, at $3.5/gallon, that is $700 per year.

- $40,000 - $25,000 = $15,000
- $15,000 / $1300 = 11.5 years to break even on the Volt.

Heck, even if your commute was 100% electric, and you never had to put a drop of gas in the thing, it would take 7.5 years to break even on the Volt.

So... bottom line????

... and before you even get back to me, let me answer it for you.

Aside from technological endeavor for GM, Volt makes absolutely no sense to an average person, except for celebrities caring only about their “green” image.


Isn't the Volt also eligible for a $7500 tax incentive? And if you drive under 40 miles/day wouldn't you conceivably use no gas at all? Granted you would be using electricity but the cost would still likely be negligible relative to gas costs.

 

[Spyder7]

Wouldn't the Fusion or Prius qualify for the same exemption? If not, why not?

If so, your point is moot, and doesn't rebut the other points raised.

Edit: as to electric costs be negligible, that would assume you've found some source of free, off the grid power you're tapping into. Otherwise, whether the source hydroelectric, coal, or nuclear, there is still some cost associated with that energy source.

Sure this energy source may be cheaper than gasoline, but it would have to be significantly cheaper, to pay down the initial $15,000 price difference within anything under 10 years of ownership - and by then you're long out of warranty and hunting for parts on a limited production, 1st generation vehicle that has several expensive systems unique to itself. Good luck on that one.

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder

 

[eljefino]

Except for, as Cliff Clavin calls them, "the square states", one would have to be in violation of the law to engage this direct drive. If one is going to accuse GM of cheating, I'm on board with that, but you'd also be "cheating" running the thing at such speeds.

 

[Spyder7]

You don't have to get it up to 70 mph for the ICE to come online, so your analogy is flawed there. The ICE will fire up whenever the battery needs charging, and if your commute exceeds 30-40 miles of city driving, it will spool up. And if your commute is that distance, but say 50/50 highway @ 60 mph, its still going to spool up as the battery is not even going to power it that way one way. On the return trip, the battery will be in charge state and you are going to see about 36 mpg on the highway return portion.

I.e. a real world scenario that still assumes you limit yourself to the lowest highway speed limits, and never pass or exceed them (which really isn't that real world at all, but it'll suffice to refute your map).

Edit: hopefully GM is forward thinking enough to provide a copy of that in their owner's manual, so that anyone living in the "wrong state" can take their Volt and move to Hawaii so that they will then be living in the "right" state for more hope (however faint) of achieving the promised 230 mpg.

-Spyder

 

[LS2JSTS]

GMs response....

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/...nterstitialskip

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Wouldn't the Fusion or Prius qualify for the same exemption? If not, why not?

If so, your point is moot, and doesn't rebut the other points raised.

Edit: as to electric costs be negligible, that would assume you've found some source of free, off the grid power you're tapping into. Otherwise, whether the source hydroelectric, coal, or nuclear, there is still some cost associated with that energy source.

Sure this energy source may be cheaper than gasoline, but it would have to be significantly cheaper, to pay down the initial $15,000 price difference within anything under 10 years of ownership - and by then you're long out of warranty and hunting for parts on a limited production, 1st generation vehicle that has several expensive systems unique to itself. Good luck on that one.

You will never come close to breaking even.

-Spyder


The Motor Trend test returned 126.7 mpg on their loop.

I know your electric is more expensive in Canada, but according to what I've read. Based on the average US electrical rates, the operational cost for those 40 electric miles will be .02 cents per mile. What does that equate to in mpg?

 

[cchase]

Spyder, you've obviously got your mind made up.

You could just as easily argue that the Prius is not worth the price premium over a similar economy car that is not a hybrid, many of which can get 40mpg on the open road, likely similiar to if not better than the Prius in some instances.

Yet the Prius has been, and continues to be, a huge success.

 

[Spyder7]

As has been pointed out already, the numbers speak for themselves:

To quote Kris7:

"Heck, even if your commute was 100% electric, and you never had to put a drop of gas in the thing, it would take 7.5 years to break even on the Volt."

That's assuming 100% electric use, and I'm also assuming no electric cost factored in for those 150,000 miles (at 20,000 per year).

That is as close to an ideal, "perfect" scenario as you could ask for. Yet in the real world, however modest by comparison, the energy source will still add some additional cost to use; additionally, some gas will be consumed as well. And when the warranty is up, you are dealing with some expensive, unique, 1st generation parts on what GM has stated will be a limited production model.

From the POV of a technological achievement and step in the right direction, GM deserves credit. From a market stand point of what its going to be competing against, and the difference in cost of ownership, to me it fails. It will sell, but Kris7 already identified the market it'll sell to.

Gas prices are much higher here, so I'm all for hybrid technology. I look at the Volt and see a product long on promise, short on delivery. Maybe in a few years, after some market share is had, more R&D has gone into it after real world testing, and production costs come down, it'll stand up better.

Toyota and, by extension Ford, through their technology sharing arrangements, are light years ahead of GM in terms of R&D, product evolution, and real world feedback - no surprise since Toyota chose to go this route while the big 3 scoffed, and the general public greeted the first offerings with skepticism. Toyota persisted onward, and the technology evolved and today benefits from reduced costs that are the fruit of years of developing it.

GM enters the game at the bottom of the 9th and has their marketing department hail their late entry to game as nothing short of a revolutionary, all electric car. Only we find out now it isn't, that it is merely their own version of the Prius (marked up considerably, as unlike Toyota, they haven't been playing this game for the last 9 innings and, in doing so, learned how to refine and produce it more cheaply).

Naturally GM doesn't want it compared to a Prius (or Fusion), since that asks difficult to answer questions, such as justification for the price difference, and real world questions about the performance and reliability of a new, untested product - the very same questions Toyota faced when they brought out their first hybrids.

Toyota didn't get a pass then, I'm not giving GM one now - particularly when the exact same questions apply, and GM's marketing approach, to date, has been to deny and obfuscate.

You are welcome to give them a pass. But just out of curiosity, how many of you who are singing their praises have put 41 grand aside to buy one?

Right - no one.

I doubt the ever green celeb club that will snap this thing up to stoke their image spends much time on BITOG.

-Spyder

 

[LTVibe]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
GMs response....

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/...nterstitialskip


There is also this from The Car Connection:

How GM Didn't 'Lie' About The Volt, And Why The Press Is Wrong

Quote:
You may have seen this morning's media frenzy about General Motors' "lie" about the Volt's ability to directly drive the wheels with its range-extending gasoline engine. What you may not know is that the publications screaming "lie!" are doing little more than running self-serving, tabloid-worthy headlines.