This is just simply WRONG. These models got a complete makeover in the late 90s (I think it was 97). As for GM vehicles with over 100K on them, I'll put my 97 Olds van with its 145,000 miles on it up against ANY 97 Toyota with equal miles. Many people take one look inside my van and assume it's NEW. And everything on it still works like the day it was made, power windows, seats, locks, radio, tape player, EVERYTHING. The engine consumes no oil between changes, and I just completed a 1000+ mile road trip over the Easter weekend in which it averaged 27.9 mpg over the course of the 1000+ miles.
GM 3.1 V6 picture
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T-Keith: With all due respect, you statement is a little misleading too. While it is absolutely true that parts and labor are almost always less expensive for the American makes, both my experience and the stats easily avialable anywhere tell another story as to frequency of need for repairs.
And since folks are still having "bad experiences," the Japanese reliability thing is hardly an "outdated stereotype." I consider it very timely, and I'm speaking from the perspective of a six-time american car owner*, so I'm not just speculating about something I've never lived through.
Trying to stay balanced, I'd readily agree that the American car of today is light years better than the product of 20-25 years ago, but you'd be fighting an uphill battle to convince me, and many others, that they've done all the catching up that they need to.
*including my wife's cars, Ford products.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
Diamler-Chrysler is probably why Germany is 3rd...
Actually I'm pretty underwhelmed by what I've heard about German build quality. My 02 Jetta was OK, but it had a couple of issues and if I hadn't traded it w/ 30K miles, I suspect it would have developed more.
I had a 1994 Buick Skylark with this 3.1 V6 and just want to add I think it's a good engine too. Currently my daughter has it and it has well over a hundred thousand miles.
I've never had to do a thing to it except change the oil/filters and spark plugs.
That's been a good little car........
I've never had to do a thing to it except change the oil/filters and spark plugs.
That's been a good little car........
Keep a close eye on the coolant level - the intake gasket failed on my g/f's at 118K...
MolaKule
Staff member
And we salute your service to our country.
Same thing with our Nissans.
Both are built in Tennessee and designed in Detrioit.
I suppose no one else will stand up for AMC so here I will attempt. Maybe you had an AMC that disappointed you, and knew some other people with the same situation, but AMC was at worst just as bad as any other American car maker in the 70s. Their downfall came not from poorer than usual build quality but diversifying their product line into markets they didn't have a chance in, and a couple of big mistakes, namely the huge amounts of money they spent on the Pacer and Matador coupe. For the most part they were solid, economical cars.
Let's dispell this myth once and for all. Paraffinic oil is actually better for most dino formulations since this oil is more thermally stable. "Paraffinic" denotes a particular base oil of specific molecular structure, and has little to do with paraffin waxes.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. There was a reason that Quaker State, Pennzoil, Kendall, and other oil companies that got their start in Pennsylvania oil fields made a point of claiming their oils were made with "100% Pennsylvania Grade Crude Oil." The very thing that Standard oil built its reputation on from the clean burning kerosene produced from this oil was what made it such an extraordinary feedstock for motor oil base oils. Motor oils that were made from lesser grade crude were not as good, and in the early days a lot of the crude couldn't be used for base oil production at all.
Modern technology in the form hydrocracking and isodewaxing has leveled the playing field, though, making "Pennsylvania Grade" bragging rights largely irrelevant and obsolete. Hydrocracking can turn even the poorest quality VGO into a base oil that is better in every way than what was produced from Penn Grade crude "way back when."
And I'll second this notion. They were plagued by a poor lineup that didn't meet the times. And when they did something about it, they shot ahead of the times. The Eagle 4WD cars and wagons were oddities back then, but now Subaru doesn't sell a car without AWD.
I will disagree that the Pacer was a mistake, I love mine. It has been quite reliable and cheap. I bought it for $400 and everything worked, down to the A/C. I've had it as a daily driver for three years now putting 16,000 miles a year on it and have only done basic maintenance to it. I did have to replace a weeping water pump.
OH NOES!! A 28 year old pump started weeping. Obviously AMC makes a poor product.
[ April 16, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Narcoleptic ]
You know...I just can't believe this picture.
I've never, and I mean NEVER, seen an engine with 200,000, let alone 300,000 be this clean after having spent it's life on a mineral-based PCEO on 3,000 mile change intervals.
Sorry...I just can't believe it!
I've never, and I mean NEVER, seen an engine with 200,000, let alone 300,000 be this clean after having spent it's life on a mineral-based PCEO on 3,000 mile change intervals.
Sorry...I just can't believe it!
Ok for the AMC fans, I will give an official shout out to two of the great muscle cars - The Gremlin X... No, not the Gremlin X; the AMX 390, and my favorite AMC car of all time, the S/C Rambler!
We are both wrong - from Edumunds:
What Edmunds.com Says
Despite the new look, there's no hiding the fact that this car was engineered more than a decade ago, leaving it hopelessly outclassed by nearly every other car on the market.
Pros
Low price, torquey four-cylinder engine, optional satellite radio and OnStar.
Cons
Ancient design inside and out, cheap interior materials, poor build quality, low resale value, poor side-impact and front-offset crash test results.
.
.
.
Introduction:
First introduced in the spring of 1981, the Cavalier has been Chevrolet's entry-level import fighter for more than two decades now. The philosophy behind the car is simple: Give customers with limited budgets a well-appointed, reliable car that offers a variety of configurations to suit their needs. The formula seems to have worked, as the Cavalier has consistently been one of Chevrolet's top-selling models.
Improvements over the years have kept the Cavalier competitive, but the current model has languished without a major redesign since 1995. The fact that the sporty Z24 and convertible coupe models are no longer available further reduces the Cavalier's ability to distinguish itself from the import and domestic competition. A minor facelift last year was intended to keep it competitive for a few more years, but there's only so much you can do to mask decade-old engineering. - my bold here.
I must add my thoughts.I have a 1984 Cavelier,4 cyl. with 169,000+ miles,no engine work whatsoever.I have a 1993 Buick V-6 with 155,000+ and no engine work.No major work of any kind on either one of these cars.When you factor in the amount of cars that GM makes and sells the few problems they have are a drop in the bucket.Many of the GM cars that people drive are driven like they are race cars.
This just shows how the stereotype is programmed into so many people. A Honda person with a problem is more likely to dismiss it, since the've read and heard everywhere that they are so great. A Chevy person with a problem is more likely to hop on the bandwagon, and speak out about it.
Also keep in mind Chevy has always been on the lower end of the GM, when it comes to quality, status, and dealer experience. A comparison to Buick or Olds would turn out better.
As long as we're digging up facts. According to JD power:
Mechanical quality/features and ammenaties quality/body and interior quality/overall quality
Buick Lesabre
5/4/4/4
Buick Century
3/4/5/4
Honda Accord
3/4/2/3
Toyota Camry
3/4/5/4
BTW, the Lesabre is 4 years old, the Century is 7, the Accord and Camry are newly redesigned.
-T
MolaKule
Staff member
Let's dispell this myth once and for all. Paraffinic oil is actually better for most dino formulations since this oil is more thermally stable. "Paraffinic" denotes a particular base oil of specific molecular structure, and has little to do with paraffin waxes.
Group I paraffinic base oils were the choice of most Automatic Transmission Fluid formulations until recently. (Group II, III, and PAO-based fluids are taking over).
All conventional oils need some type of pour-point depressant such as PAMA or PAO.
During the time period you speak of, oils of all base types were having problems due to two main causes: Over dosing with too much VII's of poor quality; poor quality of Detergent/Dispersant and clashing of DD with other additives.
A tertiary problem was that people were attempting to extend oil intervals way beyond the capability of the then present formulations.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Again, if you've got good ones, I'm happy for you. I have to admit, somewhat sheepishly, that all of my cars, American and other, get driven like race cars -- hard (that's largely why I come here, to help ensure they get the best care I can provide). The difference for me: the American ones broke a lot, the Japanese ones don't.
If it were just me, well OK, maybe I'm unlucky. But please tell me where those ownership satisfaction numbers that Tec-97 posted above are coming from? Why the big gap between the American makes and the others? Are all these folks unfairly picking on the General???
BTW, I do take some satisfaction in knowing that my Camry was built by fellow American workers in this country. BTW-2, I'm a Lieutenant Colonel in the Marines, fer Crissake, so I'm no wild-eyed hater of things just because they're American!
I think most catastrophic failures on any vehicle brand are due to owner negligence.
For example.....my old '88 Trans Am (350 TPI) was burning a lot of oil and fouling up the spark plugs very bad. I could not figure for the life of me what was wrong with the car. Well, thanks to BITOG I now know what went wrong. I had rigged up a raggedy "cold air" system for that car using an intake hose from the local autoparts and a K&N cone filter. The filter sat behind the empty foglight opening. It turns out that for the longest time I drove my car without any air filtration whatsoever. The hose attached to the filter had come completely off the filter, thereby causing the engine to ingest all kinds of debris for months and months. I can only imgaine the kind of crap ingested since the hose was hanging just a few inches from the ground.
I learned on this site that the fine sand and other debris will literally sand paper the inside of an engine, causing enormous amounts of wear. Even after the punishment I put that car through, it was still running 13.39@105MPH when I sold it.....with a bad distributor from AutoZone, sticking rear brakes and burning oil by the qts.
The only problems that car had was the CS-100 Delco-Remy alternator. Life expectancy on those things were 2 years MAX....at least on my car. The auto transmission was not strong enough for the engine, the motors for the pop-up headlights left a bit to be desired and the ride was harsh, but it was a sports car! Any other than that, no problems.
My wifes 03 Corolla has a few problems to include numerous rattles (many more than my Camaro), a very very harsh ride, and a temperamental A/C that works on its own schedule.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
For example.....my old '88 Trans Am (350 TPI) was burning a lot of oil and fouling up the spark plugs very bad. I could not figure for the life of me what was wrong with the car. Well, thanks to BITOG I now know what went wrong. I had rigged up a raggedy "cold air" system for that car using an intake hose from the local autoparts and a K&N cone filter. The filter sat behind the empty foglight opening. It turns out that for the longest time I drove my car without any air filtration whatsoever. The hose attached to the filter had come completely off the filter, thereby causing the engine to ingest all kinds of debris for months and months. I can only imgaine the kind of crap ingested since the hose was hanging just a few inches from the ground.
I learned on this site that the fine sand and other debris will literally sand paper the inside of an engine, causing enormous amounts of wear. Even after the punishment I put that car through, it was still running 13.39@105MPH when I sold it.....with a bad distributor from AutoZone, sticking rear brakes and burning oil by the qts.
The only problems that car had was the CS-100 Delco-Remy alternator. Life expectancy on those things were 2 years MAX....at least on my car. The auto transmission was not strong enough for the engine, the motors for the pop-up headlights left a bit to be desired and the ride was harsh, but it was a sports car! Any other than that, no problems.
My wifes 03 Corolla has a few problems to include numerous rattles (many more than my Camaro), a very very harsh ride, and a temperamental A/C that works on its own schedule.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
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