I agree!
All the best drivers have Lancers, Sonotas and Kia Rios.
All the best drivers have Lancers, Sonotas and Kia Rios.
GM 3.1 V6 picture
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I see where your going with this but aren't VWs and Audis the most popular cars on the back of tow trucks? I don't see many tow trucks but when I do there's usually a Audi product on the hook..although DC is a strong second.
I like how the japanese car advocates love to compare old American engines. For one forget about the 3.1,3.4 they've already been discontinued in all cars. Look at the new 3.5(based on the 3.1/3.4) it gets within 1mpg of Toyota and Honda's four cylinders.
Secondly peak horsepower means nothing. Look at you acceleration times of a Grand Prix and a lighter Honda Accord. they both have 240HP but the GP is much faster. Peak HP is for bragging rights. Total average horsepower is what matters unless you have a transmission that can hold your engine at redline.
And most definitely this is off-topic.
Come on cant you guy accept that an American engine might be good.
You can't dispute a picture so you've resorted to bickering.
-T
Secondly peak horsepower means nothing. Look at you acceleration times of a Grand Prix and a lighter Honda Accord. they both have 240HP but the GP is much faster. Peak HP is for bragging rights. Total average horsepower is what matters unless you have a transmission that can hold your engine at redline.
And most definitely this is off-topic.
Come on cant you guy accept that an American engine might be good.
-T
It seems like the current patrons of VW/Audi is the whiney noob who has no car skills and no experience approaching my 12+ examples of the marque. There was just a serious problem with a batch of literally millions of bad BREMI coil-packs, a $15 part. There were no replacments available so most owners had to drive until one went bad and they got towed in for new ones. Cool guys carried a spare and poped it in on the side of the road. Basicly, as I see it: High tech = lower reliability and the converse. VW/Audi run the range from simple Golf turbo diesels to CVT trans and now Direct-Shift Gears (two clutches, it does not let go of the lower gear until the higher one has engaged) and all-aluminum body A8. VW/Audis are great cars, I have years and years in all different models and age VW/Audi cars and cannot really think of more than one or two no-starts. I dunno, there is an old Porsche saying that it equally rewards good owners and punishes bad owners. I think that's a sentiment that can be appreciated here.
Don't forget too that since the 2004 model year the Grand Prix GTP has had 260hp. And that's with only one camshaft and 12 valves.
Oh yea, that's right, I forgot: GM is too lame to even put a manual tranny in the Grand Prixquote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
Yeah talk about BS. How about comparing similar equipped cars. Seems a 2004 Honda Accord with a automatic runs about 7.5 0-60 and 15.7 in the 1/4 mile. 3384 A Grand Prix on the same site comes in with a 6.8 0-60 and a 15.4 in the 1/4 mile with a 4 mph lead to boot.quote:
Originally posted by Drew99GT:
BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Go look in a car magazine, and see which is faster: a new V6 Accord with 6 speed manual trans, or ANY FWD V6 GM car. The Grand Prix GTP if I recall, musters low 15s stock. Accord V6 with the 6 speed is a mid 14 second car buddy! And, lets not even consider acceleration between a Grand Prix GTP and a new Altima/Maxima with V6 and 6 speed. I guess average total HP isn't for bragin rights; it's who crosses the finish line first
-T
That's Snoblish for "unreliable".quote:
Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
I dunno, there is an old Porsche saying that it equally rewards good owners and punishes bad owners. I think that's a sentiment that can be appreciated here.
That's Snoblish for "unreliable".
Well, it simply could be TRUE.
Some ******* who does not maintain a high-maintenance car deserves what they get. You skipped the part of rewarding the good owner.
Boxter looks like one of the MOST reliable sports cars in CR repair history.
Suddenly Porsches are bad cars, yeah.
You MUST not have Speed Channel.
[ November 29, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
Well, it simply could be TRUE.
Boxter looks like one of the MOST reliable sports cars in CR repair history.
Suddenly Porsches are bad cars, yeah.
[ November 29, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
yes GM sucks for not offering manual trannies on enough cars!
The 3800 supercharged is bullet proof, gets good MPG, and minimanl easy upgrades like pulley, cold air intake, exhaust really makes it come alive!
safe to say my 2001 camaro SS gets better gas mileage than a g35 sedan... I drive them all day for work (dealership) and they gas mileage is pretty bad! And thats with 100 less wheel horsepower!
The 3800 supercharged is bullet proof, gets good MPG, and minimanl easy upgrades like pulley, cold air intake, exhaust really makes it come alive!
safe to say my 2001 camaro SS gets better gas mileage than a g35 sedan... I drive them all day for work (dealership) and they gas mileage is pretty bad! And thats with 100 less wheel horsepower!
Hmmmm, with 100 more wheel horsepower, that Camaro should really blow the G35 away. Oh, but wait, the SS is actually less than a half a tick quicker to 60 than the G35. And I can get four passengers and a trunk full of luggage into my G -- tried that with your Camaro lately???
Sorry for ranting on this thread, but there are facts that need to get out and opinions to aire.
Nobody I know would pass up a free Mercedes for a free Hundai because the Hundai was scored great by owners whose last car was an old bomb or because it is more "reliable" than the Benz, gimme a break. I completely understand people on this forum are experts in their areas and respect that. Until they become an expert in Euro cars, they should refrain from criticising them outright. All I ask is they drive a few nice ones and talk to experienced owners about their feelings verses the other make of cars they have owned. Euro cars are not simply a status symbol for many who understand the economics of owning a better car, for longer and paying more. I apreciate the engineering and build quality behind them too.
Here is an example of how I explain the Euro car experience to people.
Take 2 $2000 cars that both need a tranny. One might be a 89 Volvo that is clean and maintained and the other $2000 car is a, umm, 95 Tempo in average condition. The trans rebuild costs $2000 for either car, what do you do? IMO, the Tempo gets scrapped because it is a dated pos that has no redeeming qualities. The Volvo might be worth fixing because the body, interior, engine and chassis are nuch better and deserve a 2nd life. You fix the Volvo because it is still good even if it is still worth only $2000 with a new tranny. Up-to-date safety and performance are retained in the Euro car past 10 years so it can be financed for longer and kept longer. The result is a better car in general for the owner for a similar cost.
If someone wants to be a "snob" about their expensive car, they have every right to. They invested a lot of money and time to make it nice and don't want to go tooling around in some unsafe, junky pos because in the long run the cost is about the same but the level of performance, comfort (and safety) is higher throughout the period. I'm done on this thread, peace.
PS the power is way over-rated in the G35. Look at the 0-60 times verses lower powered cars and there are some surprises.
Nobody I know would pass up a free Mercedes for a free Hundai because the Hundai was scored great by owners whose last car was an old bomb or because it is more "reliable" than the Benz, gimme a break. I completely understand people on this forum are experts in their areas and respect that. Until they become an expert in Euro cars, they should refrain from criticising them outright. All I ask is they drive a few nice ones and talk to experienced owners about their feelings verses the other make of cars they have owned. Euro cars are not simply a status symbol for many who understand the economics of owning a better car, for longer and paying more. I apreciate the engineering and build quality behind them too.
Here is an example of how I explain the Euro car experience to people.
Take 2 $2000 cars that both need a tranny. One might be a 89 Volvo that is clean and maintained and the other $2000 car is a, umm, 95 Tempo in average condition. The trans rebuild costs $2000 for either car, what do you do? IMO, the Tempo gets scrapped because it is a dated pos that has no redeeming qualities. The Volvo might be worth fixing because the body, interior, engine and chassis are nuch better and deserve a 2nd life. You fix the Volvo because it is still good even if it is still worth only $2000 with a new tranny. Up-to-date safety and performance are retained in the Euro car past 10 years so it can be financed for longer and kept longer. The result is a better car in general for the owner for a similar cost.
If someone wants to be a "snob" about their expensive car, they have every right to. They invested a lot of money and time to make it nice and don't want to go tooling around in some unsafe, junky pos because in the long run the cost is about the same but the level of performance, comfort (and safety) is higher throughout the period. I'm done on this thread, peace.
PS the power is way over-rated in the G35. Look at the 0-60 times verses lower powered cars and there are some surprises.
Relax Audi, you're so easy to get going it isn't even fun anymore.
I've got to disagree on this. Basis? 1) I've seen dyno printouts that support the stated hp (yeah I know -- it's the internet...). 2) 0-60 in the 5.8-6.1 range is reasonable and what you'd expect to see from a 3,200 lb car with anywhere from 260 to 290 hp (depending upon configuration). 3) The G35 nearly keeps up with cars like the Camaro, and you're saying the hp gap is even greater??? Not following the logic there. 4) Several car makers have been spanked and embarrassed because of even slightly puffed up hp claims (Toyota and the XRS Matrix most recently, I believe). The G has been on the street for a couple years now and I'd expect a competitor or disgruntled customer to have hammered them by now with a fraud complaint. If there are any, I haven't heard of it yet.
Well, there's my rant. Despite the above, I really don't care what hp actually has. Snob appeal? Mine's a bone stock, cloth manual seat, no-frill stereo etc version that can be had for less than an overdone V-6 XLE Camry. Bottom line: it's a blast to drive
What about an '89 Volvo vs. an '88 Mustang 5.0? Either would get the transmission replaced; in the case of the Mustang 5.0, been there, done that, still have the car. (Although the new transmission, not a rebuild, for the Mustang 5.0 was $1150 or so).
Using a Tempo in this example is the height of ridiculousness.
I'm not really excited, no problem. I actually appreciate the mods letting me get a chance to aire my analysis of what I see as a pretty strait-forward car disscussion. I just wanna point out some things as I see them.
My buddy just brought home a 1984 190 Benz. It has shiny green metallic paint with 1in/sq of surface rust, good interior runs perfectly and has had no major repairs. Sure the front end is shot, muffler and probally steering rack will go soon. As I see it, the original owner got their money's worth after 20 years. A little more to purchase, good German parts cost a bit more but the car they drove for 20 years and it offered a lot of comfort, performance and safety while still "styling" two decades later. I will say the same about my woman's 1987 Audi Coupe GT ($14k new, still a sweet car) and my Mom's 1996 2.0 Passat ($18k new still in LIKE-NEW conditon with the odo display as the only repair in 9 years. No warranty repairs and 2 intermitant CELs that I cleared myself. She would buy a new car in a day if I told her to and I say "no". They all paid barely a lil more and got their money's worth compared to a new American car at 5 years and a Japanese car at 7 years. After 15 years 3 American cars would be like $45,000 minus trade-in values
and maybe 2 nice Japanese cars would cost the same as 1 really nice German car. (525, A6q, E320, 850T) Which stragety I would pick is obvious. Sheez, you could load up a Hundai to $24k or get a new Beamer 325 6cyl for that much!!! Doh!
My buddy just brought home a 1984 190 Benz. It has shiny green metallic paint with 1in/sq of surface rust, good interior runs perfectly and has had no major repairs. Sure the front end is shot, muffler and probally steering rack will go soon. As I see it, the original owner got their money's worth after 20 years. A little more to purchase, good German parts cost a bit more but the car they drove for 20 years and it offered a lot of comfort, performance and safety while still "styling" two decades later. I will say the same about my woman's 1987 Audi Coupe GT ($14k new, still a sweet car) and my Mom's 1996 2.0 Passat ($18k new still in LIKE-NEW conditon with the odo display as the only repair in 9 years. No warranty repairs and 2 intermitant CELs that I cleared myself. She would buy a new car in a day if I told her to and I say "no". They all paid barely a lil more and got their money's worth compared to a new American car at 5 years and a Japanese car at 7 years. After 15 years 3 American cars would be like $45,000 minus trade-in values
If you hand out one hundred oranges to the people to peel out, everyone of them represent one unique way; this is considering the details. Basic ergonomy antropometrics, Gestalt phschology applies, but ergonomics doesn't stop there...
Ergonomics isn't a science, a searching discipline so naturally there are approaches. Nowodays cars started to look like each other but some schools are still observable.
I like my GM. Nope, I love my GM. That's because they can go in tune with my grasp of moving 3D world. Some may find it like driving two cars on top of each other, I understand it, and I find it unnecessarily tiresome to drive something too direct for long hours, like Peugeot, and I know its exclusive for me and may be some others. Like many things in engineering ergonomy is a two sided coin, you may keep the alertness at high but your operator will be tired sooner.
While I do appreciate finesse and contribution to the ergononmics of the German cars (especially the Mercedes) I believe AudiJunkie's examples are resembling some selected data. My aunt died on a collosion in a Mercedes which decided to run sideways on a straight road. It was rainy, Mercedes was maintained immaculately. I can say directional stability and quick steering of my GM saved me a few collosions... one was that I had to run right side at the ditch while other at the road on freshly semi-rained dusty road at 55mph! it was straight as a dart. Well, this is how "selected data" feels like.
People are keeping the companies in bussinesses. Some are lacking in interior, some are overlooked details, some other are ridiculously overpriced. But you can't make something to handle like a Mercedes or a Cadillac (which ever you like) with decent steering but without that lower mpg. You need that high caster hence the full time power steering assist at high pressure. There is no one straight road to the ultimate, and many Europeans are farther away from my ultimate.
I personally see Sweedish cars as a resemblance between the German and the US. But probably I couldn't do with the Germans, that's not because they can't do it, probably that's because I don't feel like what they aimed. What I suggest is not to throw that huge 'merican approach into the litter bin that quick. Some, like me, need it. And symmetrically, many things are not that way because thay can't build... c'mon, GM school is not a freshly searching Kia. I preferred A body over E Klasse and I will. Who else gives a quick and true steering without a harsh ride and with only some 2.7 turns lock-to-lock on an affordable mid-size sedan?
Suspension and steering one thing that I won't trade easily... let the interiors suck. I wait my 50's to get my 'vette... lol
I really have a hard time seeing why should I riding something harsher. Had been in many abrupt emergencies and my 'merican marshmellow haven't skipped one single turn... I guess GM guys really big on suspension achieving the comfort and the handling at the same time.
[ November 30, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: ikeepmychevytoo ]
Ergonomics isn't a science, a searching discipline so naturally there are approaches. Nowodays cars started to look like each other but some schools are still observable.
I like my GM. Nope, I love my GM. That's because they can go in tune with my grasp of moving 3D world. Some may find it like driving two cars on top of each other, I understand it, and I find it unnecessarily tiresome to drive something too direct for long hours, like Peugeot, and I know its exclusive for me and may be some others. Like many things in engineering ergonomy is a two sided coin, you may keep the alertness at high but your operator will be tired sooner.
While I do appreciate finesse and contribution to the ergononmics of the German cars (especially the Mercedes) I believe AudiJunkie's examples are resembling some selected data. My aunt died on a collosion in a Mercedes which decided to run sideways on a straight road. It was rainy, Mercedes was maintained immaculately. I can say directional stability and quick steering of my GM saved me a few collosions... one was that I had to run right side at the ditch while other at the road on freshly semi-rained dusty road at 55mph! it was straight as a dart. Well, this is how "selected data" feels like.
People are keeping the companies in bussinesses. Some are lacking in interior, some are overlooked details, some other are ridiculously overpriced. But you can't make something to handle like a Mercedes or a Cadillac (which ever you like) with decent steering but without that lower mpg. You need that high caster hence the full time power steering assist at high pressure. There is no one straight road to the ultimate, and many Europeans are farther away from my ultimate.
I personally see Sweedish cars as a resemblance between the German and the US. But probably I couldn't do with the Germans, that's not because they can't do it, probably that's because I don't feel like what they aimed. What I suggest is not to throw that huge 'merican approach into the litter bin that quick. Some, like me, need it. And symmetrically, many things are not that way because thay can't build... c'mon, GM school is not a freshly searching Kia. I preferred A body over E Klasse and I will. Who else gives a quick and true steering without a harsh ride and with only some 2.7 turns lock-to-lock on an affordable mid-size sedan?
Suspension and steering one thing that I won't trade easily... let the interiors suck. I wait my 50's to get my 'vette... lol
[ November 30, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: ikeepmychevytoo ]
AJ's comments make sense as usual, but I do see one problem. The suggested seven year life span on Japanese cars, versus the longer time on the high end Germans overlooks the fact that Before about 1990, there were no high end Japanese cars in the US market against which to compare the Germans. A few months back, I got a ride in a very early build, original series Lexus LS-400 (a 90 or 91, I think). This car was as sweet and tight as the day it rolled off the assembly line. Moreover, if you drop into Camryman.org or ToyotaNation, you'll see that there are plenty of folks who are getting much good use out of their 15+ year old garden variety Toyotas. Let's check back on this in five or six years when the original LS-400s and Q45s are approaching two decades service. I don't think the Germans will be alone then.
I could go for the Volvo with the Mustang engine and trans in it.
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