GM 3.1 V6 picture

[PF52]

We were debating the merits of different oils on another forum, and to prove my point I went out and pulled a valve cover and snapped a picture. This is a 1991 Chevy Beretta, which I bought new, and it now has 316,000 miles. It has seen Pennzoil exclusively since it was new, both the 5W30 and 10W30, and I'm particularly careful to change it at 3000 mile intervals.

This is the "Gen II" 60-degree V6 by the way, with the aluminum cylinder heads and splayed pushrods and valves. The heads have never been off the engine. The intake manifold gasket was replaced under warranty in 1992; other that that I don't remember any work that would have gone deeper than the fuel rails, so there's been no cleaning down there. The casting logo on the bottom of the cylinder head is clean, and the "10.9" strength marking is readable on the cylinder head bolt. There are also readable letters and numbers stamped on that metal guide, whatever it is.

 

[Blokey]

Very nice!!

I hope my engine is as clean as yours after 316,000 miles!

 

[Chris142]

316K out of one of these motors has to be a new record.

 

[Last_Z]

css9450,
Your pictures prove a few things:

-We are a bunch of oil freaks that panic over nothing. Obviously this engine has lasted a very long time on regular everyday dino without adds or improvers or modifiers.

-The picture also proves synthetics are not at all needed except on the most demanding extreme temperatures.

-Dino will not sludge, varnish or evaporate on a well maintained and mechanically sound engine.

-I'm willing to bet a few bucks if you had ever done UOAs on this engine, results would have looked less than "stellar" for our tastes. This proves that we put too much weight on 1 extra ppm and that extra ppm is not going to shorten the life of a healthy engine.

That cylinder head looks beatiful......just like it did after it left the factory. Good job!

Rick

 

[FORDNUT]

First off, your Engine looks great!! Secondly in response to (that must be a new record for this engine!) I think that is a typically brainwashed comment. So many people think that only a foreign car can run that long, but that is absolutley not true. I think the main reason foreign cars often last a long time is that they are usually maintained better than American car. Just spend a little time in a couple service depts. At a Toyota dealership you tell a cust that there car needs a new air filter, brake fluid changed, and transmission service they will tell you do whatever it needs. At a Chevy dealership you tell the cust that and they look at you like you have two heads, and then procede to say that you are trying to rip them off. It just seems to be a different mentality. I know quite a few people with American cars and trucks with 2 and 300,000 miles. I know Patman will back me up on this! sorrry, just venting.

 

[Johnny]

css9450: THANK YOU !!!!!

 

[Last_Z]

FORDNUT,

I think your word sums it up pretty good:
"Brainwashed"

Enough said!

 

[PF52]

Thanks for the kind words everybody!

In my case, I think the large amount of highway driving helps too; none of that nasty idling-in-traffic-on-a-hot-day nonsense. Realisticly I could have probably done OK with a longer change interval, but its done well with 3000K so that's what I'm sticking with. Oil is cheaper that a new engine.

 

[ekpolk]

First, that's OUTSTANDING! As someone who appreciates good machinery, wherever it's made, I know that took consistent dedicated effort. Well done.

I live in a neighborhood where a lot of the residents have high-end SUVs, bimmers, Volvos and the like. But we have two eccentrics too. One has a Civic from about '82 or so, and the other, a Chevy Celebrity wagon of about the same vintage (with the 2.8L predecessor of the 3.1). Oddly enough, they're both silver. And they're both immaculate, time warp looking cars that are also daily drivers! I've talked to the Civic guy (he uses Mobil-1), but not the Chev owner. It's interesting to see these two cars since it really does prove that if your work at keeping your car viable, you will be rewarded, regardless of where it's made. There are differences between US, Japanese, and Euro cars, but they all respond well to being taken care of.

As impressive as this result is, I'm not sure it can be used to draw hard general conclusions. To me, the real question is where the margin lies. I drive a 1MZ V-6 Toyota Camry, an engine that, in earlier versions, demonstrated a sad tendency to rapidly convert its oil to sludge, if even slightly abused. To me, this is enough of an indicator that this engine can overstress oil that I still want to stay with what I know will be the most durable formulation -- a premium synthetic.

That said, I renew my congratulations and I'd never suggest that my choice is "better" than yours. Your pic certainly does prove that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[ April 11, 2004, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[pepper32]

That Pennzoil held up alright. Are there any engine leaks?

 

[Patman]

I posted this in another thread in the mechanical section but I don't think many saw it, but my next door neighbor with the 3.1L V6 Sunbird now has over 400,000km on it (250k!) He has never had any problem with the engine or even the trans! Both are untouched and original. He used to go with 5w30 M1 or Syntec, at 3-4k intervals, but now he says he just uses cheap oil and changes it "whenever" I was shocked when he told me he's never changed his coolant though!!

 

[JohnnyO]

I've always said, how often you change the oil is way more important that what oil you use. Did you use Fram filters?

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnnyO:

I've always said, how often you change the oil is way more important that what oil you use.

---

My belief is that if you use cheap oil, then you definitely need to change it often in order to have your best shot at long engine life. But if you use a good synthetic oil, you don't need to change it so often, as it won't degrade or sludge up as easily when you push it beyond 3k.

 

[PF52]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:

Thinking about this some more, I was wondering how your transmission has done? Still alive too? What regimen of care has it received? Say what all of us will in the dino/syn debate, you've got one hard-to-dispute datapoint there. . .

---

Original engine and tranny. I had to replace the solenoid that controls the lockup torque converter, at 250K, but thats all I've ever done to the trans except for fluid and filter changes. Actually, it was kind of funny... The guy at the transmission shop near my office wanted to know when it had been rebuilt in the past (this was when I dropped it off to have the lockup solenoid replaced). I told him this was the first tranny work except for fluid changes, and it took a long time before I could convince him I wasn't lying! Seriously, I think the 3-speed TH125 trannies are more rugged than the 4-speeds that replaced them.

I've had some oil leaks on the engine too... There's an O-ring that seals a location where the distributors were on the pre-DIS versions of this engine. Nowadays the oil pump drive shaft is there. When the O-ring goes bad, they turn into the Niagara Falls of oil. At about 190K I paid 200 bucks to have it replaced; when it started leaking again at 280K or so I saved the money and did it myself. Other than that, its just very minor leakage, maybe around the rear valve cover I'm guessing.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:
css9450,
Your pictures prove a few things:

-We are a bunch of oil freaks that panic over nothing. Obviously this engine has lasted a very long time on regular everyday dino without adds or improvers or modifiers.

-The picture also proves synthetics are not at all needed except on the most demanding extreme temperatures.

-Dino will not sludge, varnish or evaporate on a well maintained and mechanically sound engine.

-I'm willing to bet a few bucks if you had ever done UOAs on this engine, results would have looked less than "stellar" for our tastes. This proves that we put too much weight on 1 extra ppm and that extra ppm is not going to shorten the life of a healthy engine.

Rick

---

Party pooper!

Nonetheless I vill shtick mit my GC and zee glint of gemütlichkeit green and zee smell oov gummy bären und schnitzel und a shpringtime valk in zee Schwarwald!

PS css9450 and Johnny...OK, I admit it...well done!!

[ April 11, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[Last_Z]

Boo hoo hoo!!

BTW, I didn't know GC smelled like Schnitzel too! I think that stuff has better use as an MRE or something!

[ April 11, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]

 

[pscholte]

See, Rick, you really need to do some research and find out ALL the secrets about GC!...OR... you could listen to my mindless rambings long enough and you will probably learn them all...I might have to save the best ones for last, though.

[ April 11, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[Chris B.]

Where is John Browning? He should be in here bad mouthing this in one way or another giving excuess as to why this engine made it this far and what a true POS it truly is even though it made it to 300,000+ miles!

Just giving you s*** JB!

 

[ekpolk]

Css:

Thinking about this some more, I was wondering how your transmission has done? Still alive too? What regimen of care has it received? Say what all of us will in the dino/syn debate, you've got one hard-to-dispute datapoint there. . .

 

[pezzy669]

I wouldnt say the basic design of the 3.1 is junk its just the cooling system.

My parents had a 92 Corsica 3.1/3spd (a rental return) which they bought with around 12-13k miles on it. It is pushing 300k miles with no engine or transmission problems. It has had tons of cooling system work though and despite the ongoing cooling system work it still runs hotter then when newer.