DSP: You are right that the Japanese models have higher resale value but another way to look at it is that you can buy a late model , low mileage GM V6 for a lot less money than a comparable Honda, Toyota etc.. If I were in the market for a used car I'd definitely go with the Domestic since you get more bang for your buck.
GM 3.1 V6 picture
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Very true!quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
I like how the japanese car advocates love to compare old American engines. For one forget about the 3.1,3.4 they've already been discontinued in all cars. Look at the new 3.5(based on the 3.1/3.4) it gets within 1mpg of Toyota and Honda's four cylinders.
Secondly peak horsepower means nothing. Look at you acceleration times of a Grand Prix and a lighter Honda Accord. they both have 240HP but the GP is much faster. Peak HP is for bragging rights. Total average horsepower is what matters unless you have a transmission that can hold your engine at redline.
And most definitely this is off-topic.
Come on cant you guy accept that an American engine might be good.You can't dispute a picture so you've resorted to bickering.
-T
American car: lots of tqs-> power
Japanese car: lots of resale value-> money
Depend on what you want, I see two different animal here!
If you compare two Japanese cars, an Accord and a Camry (both V6/I4) you will see that the Accord need to get very high rpm to get the "advertised HP/tq" while Toyota will be about 200-500rpm lower. To get most of the HP out of a Honda, you need to get "redlined" (ex: S2000). Honda stinks!
On one of my last trips, I had a Malibu with the 3.5 V6 in it. I was extremely happy with the fuel mileage I was getting out of that thing. On two tanks, I got 34.5 mpg and 36 mpg. That was from a combination of freeway driving at 80 mph and mountain driving around 40-60 mph. Not too shabby for a car that size. It seemed like a miracle coming from a house hold where our current mileage champion is 16.7 mpg average!
Depends on how you buy it. The GTP comes with rebates, that's why the resale sucks. Sticker prices mean nothing. Besides if you don't want to lose money on a car don't buy new. Anyone buying a new car every few years is just throwing money away anyway.
-T
If the subject is horsepower to mpg the the Corvette Z06 and new C6 both are capable of over 30 mpg highway with 400 bhp engines.
I have gotten 30 mpg out of a 4000 lb V-8 Dodge Diplomat..
If the subject is quality ALL new cars are better quality than ANY new car of just a few years ago.
As to the cheapest car to own... Buy a boring American Sedan that is 5 years old for 30% of new retail. I suggest a Buick LeSabre. And then keep it for another 300,000 mi.
VW's are one of the least reliable new cars on the market.
Hyundai is one of the most.
If a Audi only sustained 0-$150.00 worth of damage in a crash test I would hate to see the G-Force the Dummy was subjected to.
New Mercedes and BMW's are not exactly without flaw...
The average new American Car has fewer defects than the average new German Car.
In the end you pay your money and take your choice but dont be misled into thinking.... You get what you pay for.
GM can produce some decent cars... The Cadillac CTS 3.6 comes to mind.
Ford can produce some decent cars. I have been very happy with my 2004 Focus.
Chrysler can produce some decent cars. Chrysler 300C is a nice Automobile.
There are American, German, Japanese, and Korean Cars I would be happy to own....
Gene
I have gotten 30 mpg out of a 4000 lb V-8 Dodge Diplomat..
If the subject is quality ALL new cars are better quality than ANY new car of just a few years ago.
As to the cheapest car to own... Buy a boring American Sedan that is 5 years old for 30% of new retail. I suggest a Buick LeSabre. And then keep it for another 300,000 mi.
VW's are one of the least reliable new cars on the market.
Hyundai is one of the most.
If a Audi only sustained 0-$150.00 worth of damage in a crash test I would hate to see the G-Force the Dummy was subjected to.
New Mercedes and BMW's are not exactly without flaw...
The average new American Car has fewer defects than the average new German Car.
In the end you pay your money and take your choice but dont be misled into thinking.... You get what you pay for.
GM can produce some decent cars... The Cadillac CTS 3.6 comes to mind.
Ford can produce some decent cars. I have been very happy with my 2004 Focus.
Chrysler can produce some decent cars. Chrysler 300C is a nice Automobile.
There are American, German, Japanese, and Korean Cars I would be happy to own....
Gene
I get rentals for work alot, last January I took a Crown Vic from PA to IL and I got better mileage than a 3.0 Vulcan Taurus. I always set the cruise at 70mph and roll. The Taurus is rated at 27mpg on the highway and I never seem to see that. The Vic is rated at 25 and it is dead on. Who knows.
Eric
Average Repair Costs
Small car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
1998 VOLKSWAGEN NEW BEETLE $19 $0 $190 $0 $209 $52
1997 SATURN SL $126 $78 $584 $0 $788 $197
2001 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $257 $0 $406 $184 $847 $212
1998 TOYOTA COROLLA $0 $381 $290 $274 $945 $236
1999 VOLKSWAGEN JETTA $151 $52 $744 $162 $1,109 $277
2003 TOYOTA COROLLA $289 $234 $337 $322 $1,182 $296 11
1997 DODGE NEON $151 $104 $390 $607 $1,252 $313
1997 VOLKSWAGEN JETTA $158 $0 $852 $269 $1,279 $320
1998 NISSAN SENTRA $484 $0 $785 $59 $1,328 $332
1997 HONDA CIVIC $66 $109 $954 $546 $1,675 $419
2001 HONDA CIVIC $441 $537 $430 $298 $1,706 $427 3
1999 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $576 $44 $1,243 $8 $1,871 $468
1997 FORD ESCORT $291 $188 $876 $604 $1,959 $490
1997 MAZDA PROTEGE $658 $162 $529 $721 $2,070 $518
2000 DODGE NEON $385 $93 $444 $1,197 $2,119 $530
2000 NISSAN SENTRA $302 $327 $1,169 $327 $2,125 $531
2000 MAZDA PROTEGE $204 $367 $1,095 $538 $2,204 $551 4
1999 KIA SEPHIA $0 $447 $755 $1,284 $2,486 $622
2002 SUBARU IMPREZA $413 $456 NA $606 $2,515 $629
1997 MITSUBISHI MIRAGE $662 $263 $993 $1,107 $3,025 $756
2000 FORD FOCUS $33 $1,338 $635 $1,033 $3,039 $760
2002 MITSUBISHI LANCER $347 $522 $1,224 $1,011 $3,104 $776
2002 VOLVO S40 $414 $435 $1,124 $1,212 $3,185 $796
1997 KIA SEPHIA $391 $513 $836 $1,455 $3,195 $799
2002 MINI COOPER $839 $223 $1,498 $639 $3,199 $800
1997 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $291 $432 $842 $1,826 $3,391 $848
2002 SUZUKI AERIO $771 $819 $1,475 $1,460 $4,525 $1,131
1999 MAZDA PROTEGE $204 $693 $1,095 $2,582 $4,574 $1,144
Average Repair Costs
Midsize moderately priced car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
2002 AUDI A4 $0 $0 $509 $381 $890 $223
1998 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT $189 $0 $835 $325 $1,349 $337
1998 NISSAN MAXIMA $305 $198 $745 $322 $1,570 $393
1998 TOYOTA AVALON $529 $342 $770 $323 $1,964 $491
2000 TOYOTA AVALON $349 $418 $663 $620 $2,050 $513
1999 SAAB 9-3 $0 $156 $724 $1,482 $2,362 $591
2004 NISSAN MAXIMA $416 $369 $964 $702 $2,451 $613
1995 MAZDA MILLENIA $152 $382 $1,206 $886 $2,626 $657
2000 NISSAN MAXIMA $1,077 $351 $445 $767 $2,640 $660
1994 SAAB 900 $0 $0 $1,125 $1,551 $2,676 $669
2002 ACURA TL $300 $470 $913 $1,070 $2,753 $688
2003 SAAB 9-3 $178 $529 $993 $1,313 $3,013 $753
1995 VOLVO 850 $379 $327 $858 $1,520 $3,084 $771
1995 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT $669 $882 $986 $1,270 $3,807 $952
2004 ACURA TSX $550 $579 $1,269 $1,559 $3,957 $989
1995 NISSAN MAXIMA $516 $249 $834 $2,421 $4,020 $1,005
2003 Infiniti G35 $679 $1,824 $1,431 $1,988 $5,922 $1,481
Midsize inexpensive car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
2000 SATURN L SERIES $0 $155 $441 $331 $927 $232
2003 MAZDA 6 $151 $521 $398 $297 $1,367 $342
1997 TOYOTA CAMRY $129 $106 $499 $670 $1,404 $351
2000 SUBARU LEGACY $338 $99 $674 $354 $1,465 $366
2003 HONDA ACCORD $365 $295 $448 $363 $1,471 $368 12
1998 HONDA ACCORD $194 $354 $789 $255 $1,592 $398
2000 NISSAN ALTIMA $459 $19 $433 $831 $1,742 $436
1999 MITSUBISHI GALANT $215 $526 $885 $269 $1,895 $474
1999 MAZDA 626 $161 $589 $1,003 $200 $1,953 $488
1995 HONDA ACCORD $368 $124 $885 $573 $1,950 $488
2004 MITSUBISHI GALANT $384 $153 $853 $709 $2,099 $525
2002 TOYOTA CAMRY $246 $391 $742 $779 $2,158 $540 8
1995 CHEVROLET CAVALIER $512 $255 $825 $796 $2,388 $597
1999 CHEVROLET MALIBU $738 $416 $661 $699 $2,514 $629
2004 SUZUKI VERONA $405 $496 $897 $743 $2,541 $635
1995 SUBARU LEGACY $379 $395 $890 $892 $2,556 $639
1999 PONTIAC GRAND AM $0 $291 $1,445 $1,066 $2,802 $701
2001 CHRYSLER STRATUS $285 $195 $702 $1,642 $2,824 $706
1995 TOYOTA CAMRY $321 $266 $1,069 $1,206 $2,862 $716
1999 HYUNDAI SONATA $394 $319 $1,150 $1,081 $2,944 $736
1999 DAEWOO LEGANZA $368 $560 $1,258 $1,005 $3,191 $798
1995 DODGE CIRRUS $455 $803 $322 $1,707 $3,287 $822
2002 NISSAN ALTIMA $291 $625 $1,713 $689 $3,318 $830
1995 FORD CONTOUR $329 $581 $1,119 $1,302 $3,331 $833
2004 CHEVROLET MALIBU $394 $898 $1,366 $1,149 $3,807 $952
1995 MITSUBISHI GALANT $913 $277 $855 $1,861 $3,906 $977
1996 HYUNDAI SONATA $886 $0 $1,471 $1,988 $4,345 $1,086
Let's look at that bottom rung again:
Laganza
Sirrus
Altima
Contour
Malibu
Galant
Sonota
Junk.
Small car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
1998 VOLKSWAGEN NEW BEETLE $19 $0 $190 $0 $209 $52
1997 SATURN SL $126 $78 $584 $0 $788 $197
2001 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $257 $0 $406 $184 $847 $212
1998 TOYOTA COROLLA $0 $381 $290 $274 $945 $236
1999 VOLKSWAGEN JETTA $151 $52 $744 $162 $1,109 $277
2003 TOYOTA COROLLA $289 $234 $337 $322 $1,182 $296 11
1997 DODGE NEON $151 $104 $390 $607 $1,252 $313
1997 VOLKSWAGEN JETTA $158 $0 $852 $269 $1,279 $320
1998 NISSAN SENTRA $484 $0 $785 $59 $1,328 $332
1997 HONDA CIVIC $66 $109 $954 $546 $1,675 $419
2001 HONDA CIVIC $441 $537 $430 $298 $1,706 $427 3
1999 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $576 $44 $1,243 $8 $1,871 $468
1997 FORD ESCORT $291 $188 $876 $604 $1,959 $490
1997 MAZDA PROTEGE $658 $162 $529 $721 $2,070 $518
2000 DODGE NEON $385 $93 $444 $1,197 $2,119 $530
2000 NISSAN SENTRA $302 $327 $1,169 $327 $2,125 $531
2000 MAZDA PROTEGE $204 $367 $1,095 $538 $2,204 $551 4
1999 KIA SEPHIA $0 $447 $755 $1,284 $2,486 $622
2002 SUBARU IMPREZA $413 $456 NA $606 $2,515 $629
1997 MITSUBISHI MIRAGE $662 $263 $993 $1,107 $3,025 $756
2000 FORD FOCUS $33 $1,338 $635 $1,033 $3,039 $760
2002 MITSUBISHI LANCER $347 $522 $1,224 $1,011 $3,104 $776
2002 VOLVO S40 $414 $435 $1,124 $1,212 $3,185 $796
1997 KIA SEPHIA $391 $513 $836 $1,455 $3,195 $799
2002 MINI COOPER $839 $223 $1,498 $639 $3,199 $800
1997 HYUNDAI ELANTRA $291 $432 $842 $1,826 $3,391 $848
2002 SUZUKI AERIO $771 $819 $1,475 $1,460 $4,525 $1,131
1999 MAZDA PROTEGE $204 $693 $1,095 $2,582 $4,574 $1,144
Average Repair Costs
Midsize moderately priced car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
2002 AUDI A4 $0 $0 $509 $381 $890 $223
1998 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT $189 $0 $835 $325 $1,349 $337
1998 NISSAN MAXIMA $305 $198 $745 $322 $1,570 $393
1998 TOYOTA AVALON $529 $342 $770 $323 $1,964 $491
2000 TOYOTA AVALON $349 $418 $663 $620 $2,050 $513
1999 SAAB 9-3 $0 $156 $724 $1,482 $2,362 $591
2004 NISSAN MAXIMA $416 $369 $964 $702 $2,451 $613
1995 MAZDA MILLENIA $152 $382 $1,206 $886 $2,626 $657
2000 NISSAN MAXIMA $1,077 $351 $445 $767 $2,640 $660
1994 SAAB 900 $0 $0 $1,125 $1,551 $2,676 $669
2002 ACURA TL $300 $470 $913 $1,070 $2,753 $688
2003 SAAB 9-3 $178 $529 $993 $1,313 $3,013 $753
1995 VOLVO 850 $379 $327 $858 $1,520 $3,084 $771
1995 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT $669 $882 $986 $1,270 $3,807 $952
2004 ACURA TSX $550 $579 $1,269 $1,559 $3,957 $989
1995 NISSAN MAXIMA $516 $249 $834 $2,421 $4,020 $1,005
2003 Infiniti G35 $679 $1,824 $1,431 $1,988 $5,922 $1,481
Midsize inexpensive car Front into
barrier Rear into
barrier Front angle
into barrier Rear into
pole Total Average Footnote
2000 SATURN L SERIES $0 $155 $441 $331 $927 $232
2003 MAZDA 6 $151 $521 $398 $297 $1,367 $342
1997 TOYOTA CAMRY $129 $106 $499 $670 $1,404 $351
2000 SUBARU LEGACY $338 $99 $674 $354 $1,465 $366
2003 HONDA ACCORD $365 $295 $448 $363 $1,471 $368 12
1998 HONDA ACCORD $194 $354 $789 $255 $1,592 $398
2000 NISSAN ALTIMA $459 $19 $433 $831 $1,742 $436
1999 MITSUBISHI GALANT $215 $526 $885 $269 $1,895 $474
1999 MAZDA 626 $161 $589 $1,003 $200 $1,953 $488
1995 HONDA ACCORD $368 $124 $885 $573 $1,950 $488
2004 MITSUBISHI GALANT $384 $153 $853 $709 $2,099 $525
2002 TOYOTA CAMRY $246 $391 $742 $779 $2,158 $540 8
1995 CHEVROLET CAVALIER $512 $255 $825 $796 $2,388 $597
1999 CHEVROLET MALIBU $738 $416 $661 $699 $2,514 $629
2004 SUZUKI VERONA $405 $496 $897 $743 $2,541 $635
1995 SUBARU LEGACY $379 $395 $890 $892 $2,556 $639
1999 PONTIAC GRAND AM $0 $291 $1,445 $1,066 $2,802 $701
2001 CHRYSLER STRATUS $285 $195 $702 $1,642 $2,824 $706
1995 TOYOTA CAMRY $321 $266 $1,069 $1,206 $2,862 $716
1999 HYUNDAI SONATA $394 $319 $1,150 $1,081 $2,944 $736
1999 DAEWOO LEGANZA $368 $560 $1,258 $1,005 $3,191 $798
1995 DODGE CIRRUS $455 $803 $322 $1,707 $3,287 $822
2002 NISSAN ALTIMA $291 $625 $1,713 $689 $3,318 $830
1995 FORD CONTOUR $329 $581 $1,119 $1,302 $3,331 $833
2004 CHEVROLET MALIBU $394 $898 $1,366 $1,149 $3,807 $952
1995 MITSUBISHI GALANT $913 $277 $855 $1,861 $3,906 $977
1996 HYUNDAI SONATA $886 $0 $1,471 $1,988 $4,345 $1,086
Let's look at that bottom rung again:
Laganza
Sirrus
Altima
Contour
Malibu
Galant
Sonota
Junk.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
I like how the japanese car advocates love to compare old American engines. For one forget about the 3.1,3.4 they've already been discontinued in all cars. Look at the new 3.5(based on the 3.1/3.4) it gets within 1mpg of Toyota and Honda's four cylinders.
Secondly peak horsepower means nothing. Look at you acceleration times of a Grand Prix and a lighter Honda Accord. they both have 240HP but the GP is much faster. Peak HP is for bragging rights. Total average horsepower is what matters unless you have a transmission that can hold your engine at redline.
And most definitely this is off-topic.
Come on cant you guy accept that an American engine might be good.You can't dispute a picture so you've resorted to bickering.
-T
Pardon my "harshness", but I've been a die hard GM loyalists since I was born, and pretty much the last 4 GMs I've dealt with have left a very sour taste in my mouth. And, it's mainly how your treated by GM when your car starts falling apart that really has forced me to take my money else where.
Yeah talk about BS. How about comparing similar equipped cars. Seems a 2004 Honda Accord with a automatic runs about 7.5 0-60 and 15.7 in the 1/4 mile. 3384 A Grand Prix on the same site comes in with a 6.8 0-60 and a 15.4 in the 1/4 mile with a 4 mph lead to boot.quote:
Originally posted by Drew99GT:
BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Go look in a car magazine, and see which is faster: a new V6 Accord with 6 speed manual trans, or ANY FWD V6 GM car. The Grand Prix GTP if I recall, musters low 15s stock. Accord V6 with the 6 speed is a mid 14 second car buddy! And, lets not even consider acceleration between a Grand Prix GTP and a new Altima/Maxima with V6 and 6 speed. I guess average total HP isn't for bragin rights; it's who crosses the finish line first
-T
My '97 Grand Prix GT has 280,000 on it and and I've spent less than $1000 in repairs. Last tune up was plugs and wires at 126K. My average mpg is 25. Best car I've ever owned. Did an oil anal last week and everything is great. Foreign car parts are expensive. Friend of mine has spent mega bucks on a relatively new Avalon just on sensors.
GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, Yogo and Chrysler engineering is widely considered second tier in todays economy..look no further than the horrific depreciation their lousy products are slapped with for your proof.
It's all in the engineering from bumper to bumper that's why most of these dogs get bad uoas even with great motor oils.
It's all in the engineering from bumper to bumper that's why most of these dogs get bad uoas even with great motor oils.
Just remember, opinions are like the orifice at the exit end of the digestive system. Most people never consider their own, and they think that everyone else's stinks.
The original thread had died the usual thread death after a healthy exchange of fact and opinion. Months later, someone re-animated it, and it has taken on a new life of its own.
The original thread had died the usual thread death after a healthy exchange of fact and opinion. Months later, someone re-animated it, and it has taken on a new life of its own.
that's why most of these dogs get bad uoas even with great motor oils.
Well maybe that was a bit over the top...but the point of that previous paragraph shouldn't be lost either.
Did I ever tell you about my new '86 K-5 Silverado Blazer I bought to pull our family boat?...like living in a nightmare...junk after 70k..they lost a lot of customers with crap like that, didn't they?
Well maybe that was a bit over the top...but the point of that previous paragraph shouldn't be lost either.
Did I ever tell you about my new '86 K-5 Silverado Blazer I bought to pull our family boat?...like living in a nightmare...junk after 70k..they lost a lot of customers with crap like that, didn't they?
Since I have a bit more time and this thread is already bloated, I'll point out a few highlights from these important tests.
Back into pole:
Beetle: $0
A4: $0
Camry: $1200
Sirrus:$1700
Galant $1800
Sonota $2000
Contour:$1300
G35:$2000
Maxima:$2400
626: $2500
Front angle impact
Beetle:$190
A4:$500
Protoge:$1100
Focus $1300
Kia $1300
Lancer$1200
TSX:$1500
Grand Am$1500
Another test I saw, Kia Rio suffered $6000 damage.
My point is if all makes have decent engines, what can an owner expect from the chassis and body? Something is wrong if a few brands can show no or minimal damage while others are obviously flawed.
Back into pole:
Beetle: $0
A4: $0
Camry: $1200
Sirrus:$1700
Galant $1800
Sonota $2000
Contour:$1300
G35:$2000
Maxima:$2400
626: $2500
Front angle impact
Beetle:$190
A4:$500
Protoge:$1100
Focus $1300
Kia $1300
Lancer$1200
TSX:$1500
Grand Am$1500
Another test I saw, Kia Rio suffered $6000 damage.
My point is if all makes have decent engines, what can an owner expect from the chassis and body? Something is wrong if a few brands can show no or minimal damage while others are obviously flawed.
Moral of the story. If you can't drive, buy an Audi or VW
- Status
