A lot of arrogant import owners and fans enjoy looking down their noses at what are often viewed as sub-par "antique" engine designs from the American car makers. Usually overlooked, though, is that these engines, with their clattering pushrods, do have some advantages. For example, their typically iron blocks, like the 3.1L in this thread, are far more tolerant of overheating than any aluminum block ever will be. As this thread demonstrates, these engines can provide years of reliable service. Now if GM could only make their power windows similarly durable. . .
GM 3.1 V6 picture
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my japanese car has an iron block (although aluminum heads).
Gotta love the brains at GM that made an aluminum block and iron head engine.
Gotta love the brains at GM that made an aluminum block and iron head engine.
I rented a 3.1L 1995 Corsica from Rent-A-Reck from my freshman univ year.
In fact it is one of those engines that just does not like to die if maintained.
I would add it my list of great engines.;
I have to say that engine was stout and reliable....i loved it.
The car was fun too.
Point is: GM can make great cars they just do not feel like it.
Let the outsourcing continue
In fact it is one of those engines that just does not like to die if maintained.
I would add it my list of great engines.;
I have to say that engine was stout and reliable....i loved it.
The car was fun too.
Point is: GM can make great cars they just do not feel like it.
Let the outsourcing continue
The 3.1 has had its share of troubles, yes. I had a 1991 Lumina 3.1 with the 3T125 trans. I purchased it at 188000. The owners were heading it junkyard bound, but it was just the TCC module causing it to kill at idle in gear. That was fixed. I did some other items and kept the maintanence up, using Mobil-1 10W-30. I drove it to 238000, then sold it for $2000. I gave the new owner strict instructions on maintanence. He drove it past 300000 and traded it. I saw it on a used car dealer's lot for $595 last fall, with 312000. It still runs around the city to this day, and I'm sure it's getting cheap oil now. lol
fellas,
I think full marks should also go to the oil, Pennzoil. A lot of people, on other forums, really bad mouth this oil, and here is proof positive it is not a sludger and will not destroy engines.
Dave
I think full marks should also go to the oil, Pennzoil. A lot of people, on other forums, really bad mouth this oil, and here is proof positive it is not a sludger and will not destroy engines.
Dave
The results are impressive, but with all due respect, I'm not willing to accept this as proof of Pennzoil's quality. Nor do I have any problem with the Pennzoil line either (I'm a Mobil/Amsoil syn user myself). My point is that almost any motor oil will perform just fine, if the user carefully stays within the confines its operating "envelope." This owner indicated he very rigorously applied a short OCI. Left unanswered is how close his oil was to becoming dangerous when he dumped it. Did it have 2% service left, 50%, or perhaps more. I'd like to see some UOAs before I made a broad conclusion, good or bad, about the oil. BTW, I'm no more ready to accept anecdotal stories about Pennzoil sludging cars. I'm much more inclined to believe that negligence sludges cars, not oil...* But yes, at least as used by this owner, Pennzoil did just fine.
*Yep, I'm probably biased a little -- I'm a so-far sludge-free Toyota 1MZ V-6 owner.
My parents bought a '90 GP with the 3.1 liter. It has 150,000 miles on it and is still going. My dad uses it as his work car. It has had the oil changed every 3k to 5k miles. The valve covers have never been off, but it looks extremely clean looking in the oil filler hole.
My dad put Exxon Supreme 10w30 in it up until a year or so ago. Then, it began to pour oil like someone else mentioned. He assumed it was the rear main, but now I believe it is the dist. hole seal.
My dad put Exxon Supreme 10w30 in it up until a year or so ago. Then, it began to pour oil like someone else mentioned. He assumed it was the rear main, but now I believe it is the dist. hole seal.
i can tell u this ive had 2 3.1 gm cars 94 sunbird 96 grand am and im anyone could go 100000 miles on these engines they are total garbage and the cars themselves usually fall apart before 100000 miles i hate gm cars there trucks that,s another story
You could have just stopped there.
There are plenty of 3.1s and Grand ams out there with well over 100,000 miles to prove you wrong. Granted the 85-91 N-bodies were a little more reliable than the 92-98, they were still a decent car. Despite all the talk here about intake problems, I've never seen one with this problem, and I've seen plenty running around with high mileage and no problems.
-T
Very nice!! Looks like Penzoil is a very good dino oil to use! I can't get over how clean that engine is for over 300k miles!!
I will personally vouch for intake problems - my g/f's 97 Lumina had the dreadded intake gasket failure... Car fixed and sold shortly thereafter.quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
You could have just stopped there.
There are plenty of 3.1s and Grand ams out there with well over 100,000 miles to prove you wrong. Granted the 85-91 N-bodies were a little more reliable than the 92-98, they were still a decent car. Despite all the talk here about intake problems, I've never seen one with this problem, and I've seen plenty running around with high mileage and no problems.
-T
I've owned GM products from the mid-80s (two Pontiacs) and from the mid-90s (supercharged Buick Regal), and a handful of Hondas and Toyotas too. The sad reality, at least to me, is that the GM cars have potential, but are built so cheaply, at least as compared to their Toyota and Honda counterparts, that I'm simply done with them. Their engines and transmissions are for the most part solid, but even to this day, the bodies and associated equipment, especially electrical, are awful. This is not to suggest that GM engines won't run for a long time, they will. The owner will, however, have to tolerate a whole lot more cheapness than a Toyota owner will.quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
You could have just stopped there.
There are plenty of 3.1s and Grand ams out there with well over 100,000 miles to prove you wrong. Granted the 85-91 N-bodies were a little more reliable than the 92-98, they were still a decent car. Despite all the talk here about intake problems, I've never seen one with this problem, and I've seen plenty running around with high mileage and no problems.
-T
Consider my experience with the 98 Regal GS. My first one was falling apart so badly that the embarrassed dealer actually took the car back and swapped me into an identical one after 10k miles.* I drove that car for a couple of years. The engine and trans were spectacular performers and felt rock solid. On the other hand, virtually everytihing from the firewall back was just waiting for an excuse to fall of the car. To list all the issues would turn this into a dissertation. Doors, wipers, windows, you name it. The last straw fell two months out of warranty when the control face for the auto-AC failed and I was facing paying nearly a grand just to be able to control my otherwise working AC. At that point, it became worth it to me to lose a grand or so and trade out of it and into a Toyota, a decision I'm very happy with to this day.
I've given GM four different chances, and frankly, I feel taken advantage of. They can build 'em as well as Toyota can, they'd just rather try to make a little more money instead. A bad strategy in the long run; they won't ever, EVER see another penny of my hard earned income.
* Yes, I received "special" treatment on this; my professional partner was a long-time golfing buddy of the dealership owner.
[ April 16, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
That's just it...it was "your" experience. And we all tend to canonize our own experiences, especially when it comes to cars. But let's face it, if the majority of people had experiences with their GM cars that were like yours, GM would go out of business. That is exactly what happned to American Motors. Their cars were junk, and virtually everyone who had one knew it. Chrysler bought AMC and quickly killed everything but the Jeep line.
I've personally owned half a dozen GM cars since 1978 and I can honestly say that I've never had the sort of problems you've described. The only problem I've ever had that involved anything major is the infamous intake manifold leak on the 3.4 in my Olds minivan. But despite that, I still think the 3.1/3.4 engine is one of GM's best designs.
Well, the big three have almost abandoned the domestic CAR market... The only thing that keeps them afloat are truck/SUV sales (and for Ford, fleet sales). Chevy/Pontiac were selling the same Cavalier/Sunfire last year that they were in 1992 for God's sake, and it wasn't that great a car then... Can a GM car last over 100K miles - probably. But compare the average GM car w/ 100K miles w/ the the average Honda or Toyota w/ 100K miles. There will be no comparison as to the overall finish of these cars once they get a little age on them.
Well, I’m not surprised by this result at all.
Pennzoil’s sometimes maligned oil pan visual test a few years ago showed that the oil left things very clean. So, it makes sense to me that regular 3,000 mile oil and filter changes with Pennzoil conventional oil have kept things this clean.
Is the source (host) of that picture going to stay for a while? I’d like to post links to this thread on other car forums where I see the stupid myth that Pennzoil will clog up your motor with wax over time. Time to put that silly puppy to rest forever!
Oh, and this result is NOT an aberration.
Someone here posted pics of a Subaru motor with 75,000 miles on it about a year ago. The oil was exclusively Chevron Supreme and it looked absolutely brand new.
--- Bror Jace
Pennzoil’s sometimes maligned oil pan visual test a few years ago showed that the oil left things very clean. So, it makes sense to me that regular 3,000 mile oil and filter changes with Pennzoil conventional oil have kept things this clean.
Is the source (host) of that picture going to stay for a while? I’d like to post links to this thread on other car forums where I see the stupid myth that Pennzoil will clog up your motor with wax over time. Time to put that silly puppy to rest forever!
Oh, and this result is NOT an aberration.
--- Bror Jace
No no no, it's Quaker State that sludges up motors!quote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
I’d like to post links to this thread on other car forums where I see the stupid myth that Pennzoil will clog up your motor with wax over time. Time to put that silly puppy to rest forever!
j/k
This statement is misleading. The Cavalier was redesigned in 1994, and has been updated several times since then. This is the last year for the Cavalier. The reason they haven't changed it HAS been selling so well. It's one the top 20 selling vehicles in US. GM is still the top seller of vehicles in the US. You can't do that with trucks alone. Jeep has sold the Cherokee with only mild revisions from 1984 until 2002!
From MY experience. GM vehicles can make it to 150,000 with lower maintenance and repair costs than Hondas and Toyotas. They are much easier and cheaper to work on, and rarely require more repair than a Honda or Toyota.
The old "Japanese cars are more reliable" is an outdated sterotype, that is spread by people with a bad experience and people who have never owned an American car.
-T
One more and I'm done - I just checked Edumnds, and a quick look at 1993 produced the following observations: the Cavalier had a Consumer rating of 6.8, the Corsica 7.4, and the Lumina 7.5 and all had a TMV of around 2 grand or less. I omitted the Camaro and Corvette as they are specialty cars w/ particularly devoted followings and their sales are only a minute fraction of that of the models above.
For Honda it was as follows: Accord 9.0, Civic 9.1, Del Sol 9.2, and Prelude 9.4, and they have a TMV averageing around 4 grand.
Those are CONSUMER RATINGS from people interested enough to rate the cars. If that doesn't say something about how the two makes stand up over time, I don't know what does.
I actually agree that the GM 60-degree V-6 is a good engine. The original 2.8L form had some durability problems, but beyond that they are good, solid engines, as is the 3.8L V-6, which has been around in one form or another since 1961!
I did not represent this as anything more than "my experience." You, and everyone else, are free to draw whatever conclusions you wish. I could perhaps understand one bad example, but now that I've lived through four of them, I'm not feeling like giving the General any more chances. BTW, my earlier two were Pontiac Trans-Ams, the quality of which could only be described as awesomely bad. To be perfectly fair, my Toyotas and long-gone Honda don't get perfect scores either. I'd call my Toyotas "9s" whereas those Pontiacs were barely "2s".
I do realize that some people are very happy with their GM products. If you've got a good one, and you're satisfied with it, power to you. You know, that's really all that counts. We each earn our money, we buy our cars, and hope for the best. I intended no general disrespect toward those who choose GM cars. And I actually almost bought another last year. I was very impressed with the solidity of the Chevrolet Impala I had as a rental for 1.5 months while waiting for my accident-destroyed Toyota to be totalled out. But I just couldn't quite get past my past with GM. That, and having just had my life saved by a side curtain airbag, I insisted on getting them again, on both sides of the car. Chev chose to put them only on the driver's side in '03. Another GM ***. . .
Enough of my rambling. If you're happy with your car, then I'm happy for you. I'm in another Toyota, and I plan to stay there.
That was almost certainly a very wise decision. My next door neighbor's brother just traded in a new(ish) Impala w/ 53K miles on it after they replaced the transmission for the second time (under warranty). This is in Gulf Breeze, BTW.
Here's a hoot - Jack (my neighbor) tried to talk his brother into going w/ an Accord or a Camry, but his brother insisted on 'Buying American' so he came home w/ a new Monte Carlo... Made in Canada!
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