General paranoia

Status
Not open for further replies.
Who Scalped Whom?

Historians Suggest Indians Were As Much Victims As Perpetrators

By Diane E. Foulds

BOSCAWEN, N.H. - As monuments go, the one depicting Colonial heroine Hannah Dustin looks like any other, with one crucial exception: In her left hand she holds a fistful of human scalps.

The inscription underneath tells of her 1697 capture in an Indian raid, and how she slew her captors as they slept - 10 women and children. Later she returned for their scalps, having remembered they could fetch a bounty.

The idea of a settler scalping Indians might seem like a historical quirk. Most Americans assume that if there was any scalping going on in Colonial times, the Indians were doing it, not the English.

But the truth, it turns out, is more complex. In an era where Indian-nicknamed teams are under fire and even the meaning of Thanksgiving is being re-evaluated by Native Americans, the very word "scalp" has become culturally loaded - and the origins of the practice increasingly controversial. If one thing is certain, however, it's that Hannah Dustin was no fluke. "

Americans certainly scalped Indians during the Revolution and after," says Colin Calloway, who teaches history at Dartmouth College. "They also stripped Indian corpses of skin."

New England is littered with evidence if you know where to look. Some 35 miles north of the Hannah Dustin statue, at New Hampshire's Rumney rest area off Route 25, a discreet historic marker reading "Baker River" tells of Lieutenant Thomas Baker and his scouting party, whose 1712 razing of a nearby Pemigewasset Indian village earned a "scalp bounty" of 40 pounds sterling from Massachusetts Colonial authorities. The deed earned Baker a promotion to captain - and a namesake river.

In museums around the region, actual scalps were still available for viewing as recently as the 1980s. Museums with scalps in their collections included Harvard's Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, the Fort Ticonderoga museum on Lake Champlain, and the Robert S. Peabody Museum of Archaeology in Andover.

Then in 1990, the federal government passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which mandated the return of sacred Indian artifacts and of remains. As museums combed through their collections, they found scalps that were clearly Indian. Some even had documentation identifying the scalp-takers as colonists.

Historical records confirm that Colonial authorities offered a bounty on Indian scalps. Hannah Dustin, for example, collected a monetary reward and a pewter tankard. In Salem, redeemed scalps were hung along the walls of the town courthouse, in full view of the public, until the building was torn down in 1785.

Dartmouth's Calloway said it is unclear whether New England tribes took scalps before contact with Europeans. At least two tribal spokesmen say theirs did not.

Mashantucket Pequot spokesman Buddy Gwin says scalping "was not a practice traditional to first nations peoples" until becoming "a retaliatory act" against colonists.

John Brown, who is tribal historical-preservation officer for Rhode Island's Narragansett Indians, said that bodily mutilation was considered "dishonorable" until it was "learned" from Europeans in the mid-17th century.

It was such absolutist arguments on both sides of the scalping question that led James Axtell to the issue some years ago. A historian at the College of William & Mary in Virginia, Axtell vividly remembers walking into New York City's former Heye Museum of the American Indian in the early 1970s and seeing human scalps hanging in a glass case. One was blond, obviously a girl's. Another had African hair, perhaps taken from a slave. There were probably Indian scalps there too, he says.

Later, stories started to circulate that the Europeans had invented scalping - and that colonists had actually taught it to the Indians. Axtell paid little notice until he started hearing those stories from academics. At that point, he and fellow historian William Sturtevant decided it was time to sort out the record.

Based on markings on skulls, drawings, linguistic clues, and the diaries of 15th- and 16th-century explorers, their conclusions were ultimately published in a 1981 book, "The European and the Indian," which argues that the practice of scalping in North and South America predated the arrival of Christopher Columbus.

"Scalps were not mere trophies or booty of war, however," Axtell wrote. "The whorl of hair on the crown and especially male scalp locks, braided and decorated with jewelry, paint, and feathers, represented the person's `soul' or living spirit. To lose that hair to an enemy was to lose control over one's life, to become socially and spiritually `dead', whether biological death resulted or not."

English settlers adopted the practice as a retaliatory measure, he said - and then added a new twist by offering bounties to their Indian allies for scalps taken from hostile tribes.

According to Axtell's book, the English in Connecticut paid the Mohegans for the heads of Pequots, and the Dutch paid wampum for Raritan heads. After the start of King Philip's War in 1675, it said, Rhode Island's Narragansetts were paid for heads in lengths of cloth.

The arrangement worked, although scalps were substituted for whole heads, which were too cumbersome to carry over long distances. It also required some adjustment by the Indians, who were unused to giving up their hard-won war trophies to foreigners.

But the English took scalping into their own hands when the Indians could no longer be relied upon, and it became an accepted - if unpleasant - reality of Colonial life. By 1723, Massachusetts was paying 100 pounds sterling for the scalps of male Indians aged 12 and over, and half that for women and children. The scalps were then burned or buried.

Axtell even documents an Indian scalping by a Puritan minister, who managed somehow to reconcile it with his religious beliefs.

"Along with pious thoughts, I receive 165 pounds 3-3 . . . my part of scalp money," reads the 1757 diary of another clergyman, the Rev. Thomas Smith of Falmouth, Maine, who supplied provisions and ammunition to a scalping party made up of his parishioners.

Scalping continued up to the Revolutionary War, with Englishmen even scalping each other on the battlefields.

The idea of scalping continues to have powerful effects on the culture, particularly in its exclusive association with Indian warriors.

"Most people have bought into the concept that Indians are savages," says National Park Service archeologist Sam Ball.

"Prejudice over this sort of thing is just plain enormous," he says. "And it is being reinforced, rather than getting a clear, rational evaluation of what the evidence is and what reality is."

Calloway feels the misconceptions are part of a "complex process of dehumanizing Indians to justify taking away their land and culture, and attributing the brutality of frontier race wars to the `other side.' "

Axtell cautions against excess on either side of the argument - and suggests we shouldn't rush to judge our forebears' behavior by today's moral standards. "If white Americans have assumed that only `savage' Indians scalped, they were clearly misinformed," he says. "If they thought that scalping was particularly `savage,' they conveniently turned a blind eye to their ancestors' adoption and encouragement of the practice and to far more heinous acts and practices in America's military past."

But that still leaves the question of how the full story could have been widely ignored for so long. One reason is that Indian scalping has become part of our cultural mythology, incorporated into murals, prints, and even a Frederic Remington statue called "The Scalp."

The Hannah Dustin statue, by contrast, is decidedly obscure, secluded on an island next to a park-and-ride lot outside Boscawen. It gets few visitors, although vandals have broken off Dustin's nose.

As for those Indian scalps in local collections?

"My guess is that lots of 19th-century museums didn't want to know whether the scalps they had were Indian or Euro-American," says Dean Snow, who heads the Anthropology Department at Pennsylvania State University.

Then he added a more personal anecdote, overturning another misconception: that it was always a death sentence.

"For what it's worth," he said, "my own great-great-great-great grandfather was scalped and left for dead when he was young by a Mohawk - British allies then - raiding party during the Revolution."

Family tradition holds that someone shaped a silver skullcap to cover the scalped area.

"He woke up without his hair," Snow said, "and lived to be an old man with a silver plate on his head."

Used with the author's permission

.Originally published in the Boston Globe, Date: 12/31/2000 Page: B10 Section: Metro/Region.


Page citation: http://www.hawthorneinsalem.org/page/11977/
 
Quote:
Dartmouth's Calloway said it is unclear whether New England tribes took scalps before contact with Europeans. At least two tribal spokesmen say theirs did not.


If they were of the Iroquois nation they certainly did scalp. Tribes don't want to admit it because it has a bad connotation. At least the Shawnees admit they did.

Quote:
The original homeland of the Iroquois was in upstate New York between the Adirondack Mountains and Niagara Falls. Through conquest and migration, they gained control of most of the northeastern United States and eastern Canada. At its maximum in 1680, their empire extended west from the north shore of Chesapeake Bay through Kentucky to the junction of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers; then north following the Illinois River to the south end of Lake Michigan; east across all of lower Michigan, southern Ontario and adjacent parts of southwestern Quebec; and finally south through northern New England west of the Connecticut River through the Hudson and upper Delaware Valleys across Pennsylvania back to the Chesapeake. With two exceptions - the Mingo occupation of the upper Ohio Valley and the Caughnawaga migration to the upper St. Lawrence - the Iroquois did not, for the most part, physically occupy this vast area but remained in their upstate New York villages.


http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html

How do you think they conquered and gained control, by holding peace talks in Geneva?

Besides, your own "Academic" source says this:

Quote:
Based on markings on skulls, drawings, linguistic clues, and the diaries of 15th- and 16th-century explorers, their conclusions were ultimately published in a 1981 book, "The European and the Indian," which argues that the practice of scalping in North and South America predated the arrival of Christopher Columbus.
smile.gif
 
Last edited:
Well, in the 11th century, Godwin, Earl of Essex, would torture some enemies by scalping.

But it's hard for the Europeans to show the Indian tribes the art of scalping if the latter was doing it before Columbus.

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq12.htm

"Scalping--cutting off the scalp of a dead enemy as proof of his demise-- was common practice throughout North America before colonists got here. It is described in Indian oral histories, and preserved scalps were found at archaeological sites. Colonists learned to scalp enemies from the Indians. (The European custom was to cut off people's heads for proof/trophies, originally, but scalps are easier to transport and preserve, so the colonists quickly switched to the Indian method.)"
 
Originally Posted By: Benito
Like they say, a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.


Hey, What's wrong with a 3rd grade education?

He's got a PhD in brawling though.

But, knowing him there will be no apology coming as promised. Nor for stating that America is a terrorist.
 
"War on terror.. Who is the real terrorist?" I am not foolish enough to state the America has been anywhere near perfect. Far from it. The mistreatment of native Americans, slavery, and international mistakes at times as well.
But the founding of this country in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the amendments therein provided the opportunity to make past wrongs right. Now, are we where we need to be as a nation?? No. There are areas in which we need to strive to make this nation better than what it is today. The United States of America has done a fair amount to help introduce or save freedom in many areas of the world. If not for the U.S western Europe would have been overcome by the third Reich. After that they would have been over taken by the hammer and sickle of the USSR. Did this lead to mistakes along the way?? Certainly. The war in Vietnam was a place where over 58,000 men died to prevent the spread of communism. Was it the right policy decision? No. We also funded the Afghanistan fighters against the Soviets. This seemed to be correct at the time but laid the basis for al queda. Our second war in Iraq unsettled the power structure in the middle east that gives the Iranians a growing grip of strength and influence that is very dangerous. Our withdrawal from Iraq due to the fact that the Iraqi government would not agree to a status forces agreement has given place to the spill over of the Islamic state from Syria.
But to equate the United States with "who is the real terrorist" is a monumental leap I logic that is several large fences to far. Truth is IF we wanted to we could obliterate ANY of those nations in the middle east with nuclear weapons or even just conventional weapons and truly kill everyone there and take what we wanted too. We could do that just about anywhere in this world IF we wanted too. Do I believe that we should pull back in a number if theaters in the world?? Maybe a good idea. But who fills that vacuum left behind?? ISIS??? If we had a substantial number of troops in Iraq before they moved eastward we could have taken them out. Now they are growing stronger by the day.
The United States and the West stood down when Putin became aggressive in Ukraine. WE SIGNED AN AGREEMENT WITH UKRAINE THAT IF THEY DISMANTLED THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT WE WOULD DEFEND THEM AGAINST RUSSIA. We did nothing. And we will do nothing. IF Putin wanted to he could roll the red army not only across Ukraine but into the former Warsaw Pact countries with Zero response from the US or NATO. Again, who fills the vacuum left behind when we are derelect in our duties or not true to our word??
Going back to the sins committed by the US government in regards to the native Americans. How many treaties did our government violate?? Just about everyone of them. Trail of tears, wounded knee,and many other instances of cruelty perpetuated against the natives.
Slavery, Jim Crow and the Taney Supreme Court ruling that people were property prior to the civil war. The wrongs committed here at home are many no doubt.
But the amazing irony was that Martin Luther King was able to articulate how the Declaration of Independence applied TO ALL MEN. That the Constitution APPLIED TO ALL MEN. The key to start to make wrongs right are found in our founding documents. There is a growing number of people well left of center who want us to do away with this old, antiquated, and outdated documents. I read a op eds on CNN calling for this. I also have found an editorial from the NY Times saying the same thing. LOONY TOONS.
This nation is just like an individual person who across the spectrum of their lifetime does many things that are devious, morally wrong and sometimes evil. But alas, this same person commits many acts of kindness, righteousness, an unwielding desire to face down evil from outsiders and a willingness to attempt to make past wrongs right. That is who we are as a nation. A fallen, collection of diverse people who recognize past wrongs, but have a willingness to attempt to make amends and make things right.
We are not remotely the equivalent of pre WW two Germany who set upon world domination with brutality. WE COULD have done so after WW two had we wanted too. We also COULD have this after the break up of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact in the late 80s. WE DID not do that. WE could overrun our borders with Mexico and Canada ANYTIME we wanted to with little problems at all. Period.
We are not the equivalent to Al Queda, Boko Haram, The Islamic State and or Hamas. I am well aware of this nations wrong doings in this hemisphere, southeast Asia, and the middle east. But I will be @#%ED if the country I live in will be equated to those groups.
I hope that I am misunderstanding in what context that was meant in. I genuinely hope I just read that wrong or missed the connection.
Ohh and by the way.. My great grandfather was half Iroquois. Maybe that explains why I don't blindly trust the government
smile.gif

And yes my grandfathers phenotype was very American Indian. I wondered why as a child he had so many Indian pieces and art around. I have learned why since then. My grandfather also served in the second world war. And yes he was proud to be American. In spite of all the past wrongs committed.
 
How would any rational person not be paranoid? We have .gov tracking our communications. Laws being passed in secret. We're sitting under a mountain of debt that gets bigger everyday. Unfunded mandates Your opinion, which was perfectly acceptable a couple years ago, can cost you your job if found out. Schools are a total disaster. And on and on. Clearly at some point everything will break down if we stay on the current path. If you look at History, chaos, death, and destruction are the rule. How anyone thinks, because we've had it relatively good in our little region(note that outside of our region tens/hundreds of millions have been slaughtered) for a couple hundred years, it's going to last forever is beyond me.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bbhero
"War on terror.. Who is the real terrorist?" I am not foolish enough to state the America has been anywhere near perfect. Far from it. The mistreatment of native Americans, slavery, and international mistakes at times as well.
But the founding of this country in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the amendments therein provided the opportunity to make past wrongs right. Now, are we where we need to be as a nation?? No. There are areas in which we need to strive to make this nation better than what it is today. The United States of America has done a fair amount to help introduce or save freedom in many areas of the world. If not for the U.S western Europe would have been overcome by the third Reich. After that they would have been over taken by the hammer and sickle of the USSR. Did this lead to mistakes along the way?? Certainly. The war in Vietnam was a place where over 58,000 men died to prevent the spread of communism. Was it the right policy decision? No. We also funded the Afghanistan fighters against the Soviets. This seemed to be correct at the time but laid the basis for al queda. Our second war in Iraq unsettled the power structure in the middle east that gives the Iranians a growing grip of strength and influence that is very dangerous. Our withdrawal from Iraq due to the fact that the Iraqi government would not agree to a status forces agreement has given place to the spill over of the Islamic state from Syria.
But to equate the United States with "who is the real terrorist" is a monumental leap I logic that is several large fences to far. Truth is IF we wanted to we could obliterate ANY of those nations in the middle east with nuclear weapons or even just conventional weapons and truly kill everyone there and take what we wanted too. We could do that just about anywhere in this world IF we wanted too. Do I believe that we should pull back in a number if theaters in the world?? Maybe a good idea. But who fills that vacuum left behind?? ISIS??? If we had a substantial number of troops in Iraq before they moved eastward we could have taken them out. Now they are growing stronger by the day.
The United States and the West stood down when Putin became aggressive in Ukraine. WE SIGNED AN AGREEMENT WITH UKRAINE THAT IF THEY DISMANTLED THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT WE WOULD DEFEND THEM AGAINST RUSSIA. We did nothing. And we will do nothing. IF Putin wanted to he could roll the red army not only across Ukraine but into the former Warsaw Pact countries with Zero response from the US or NATO. Again, who fills the vacuum left behind when we are derelect in our duties or not true to our word??
Going back to the sins committed by the US government in regards to the native Americans. How many treaties did our government violate?? Just about everyone of them. Trail of tears, wounded knee,and many other instances of cruelty perpetuated against the natives.
Slavery, Jim Crow and the Taney Supreme Court ruling that people were property prior to the civil war. The wrongs committed here at home are many no doubt.
But the amazing irony was that Martin Luther King was able to articulate how the Declaration of Independence applied TO ALL MEN. That the Constitution APPLIED TO ALL MEN. The key to start to make wrongs right are found in our founding documents. There is a growing number of people well left of center who want us to do away with this old, antiquated, and outdated documents. I read a op eds on CNN calling for this. I also have found an editorial from the NY Times saying the same thing. LOONY TOONS.
This nation is just like an individual person who across the spectrum of their lifetime does many things that are devious, morally wrong and sometimes evil. But alas, this same person commits many acts of kindness, righteousness, an unwielding desire to face down evil from outsiders and a willingness to attempt to make past wrongs right. That is who we are as a nation. A fallen, collection of diverse people who recognize past wrongs, but have a willingness to attempt to make amends and make things right.
We are not remotely the equivalent of pre WW two Germany who set upon world domination with brutality. WE COULD have done so after WW two had we wanted too. We also COULD have this after the break up of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact in the late 80s. WE DID not do that. WE could overrun our borders with Mexico and Canada ANYTIME we wanted to with little problems at all. Period.
We are not the equivalent to Al Queda, Boko Haram, The Islamic State and or Hamas. I am well aware of this nations wrong doings in this hemisphere, southeast Asia, and the middle east. But I will be @#%ED if the country I live in will be equated to those groups.
I hope that I am misunderstanding in what context that was meant in. I genuinely hope I just read that wrong or missed the connection.
Ohh and by the way.. My great grandfather was half Iroquois. Maybe that explains why I don't blindly trust the government
smile.gif

And yes my grandfathers phenotype was very American Indian. I wondered why as a child he had so many Indian pieces and art around. I have learned why since then. My grandfather also served in the second world war. And yes he was proud to be American. In spite of all the past wrongs committed.


Very well argued.

A couple of comments

1) If you are a victim of American foreign (or domestic) policy, all the good that America has done or intended to do, does not really matter. So if you decide to be interventionist and use force and use the CIA to fund whoever meets your goals absent of any moral consideration, by definition you're going to end up getting a reputation for that kind of stuff.

So that reputation is deserved because of what you decided to do based on how you wanted to see the world and how you decided to pursue your economic interests.

2) I think it's a pity that we've created all this wealth and a higher standard of living but have not evolved to thinking about what makes us truly fulfilled and happy
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
How would any rational person not be paranoid?


Paranoia is a sign of mental illness. If your concerns and suspsicions are well-founded, then you are not paranoid. And even if you are paranoid, you still may be right, if only for the wrong reason. Being paranoid may be safer than the belief the universe is conspiring on your behalf.
 
Originally Posted By: Benito
[1) If you are a victim of American foreign (or domestic) policy, all the good that America has done or intended to do, does not really matter. So if you decide to be interventionist and use force and use the CIA to fund whoever meets your goals absent of any moral consideration, by definition you're going to end up getting a reputation for that kind of stuff.

So that reputation is deserved because of what you decided to do based on how you wanted to see the world and how you decided to pursue your economic interests.

2) I think it's a pity that we've created all this wealth and a higher standard of living but have not evolved to thinking about what makes us truly fulfilled and happy


A victim? Like when we saved the world from Germany? Like when we act to prevent mass murders all over the world happening daily?

We have foreigners taking pot shots at us right here in front of your face and nobody takes exception to that other than me? You want to agree with them because they are your forum buddy?
 
So exactly what "reputation earned" are you talking about?? If you still want to equate this nation with al queda, ISIS etc. etc. Then you are on your own island with other people who not only totally have a disdain for this country.
Again, I am very well aware of serious past wrongs committed by the United States. But I am also well aware if all the good things we have done has well. Good, bad or indifferent EVERY nation has a past of inhumanity, evil, and wrong actions perpetrated upon other people. There is no country that is remotely perfect. Period. Look at what happened in Rawanda in the early 90s, post fall of the communist rule in Yugoslavia. The Japanese prior to WW two in their conquering of the Chinese. Look at biblical history regarding the Assyrians, and Romans. How about the Spanish conqiustadors in the western hemisphere in their treatment of native Americans. This list can go on and on and on. Why??
This is the fallen nature of ALL mankind. Period. There is no nation, collection if people and or culture that has not done evil to another group, race, and or to their own people for that matter. Whether anyone likes it or not ... Mankind is a far from imperfect collection of beings. Capable of unspeakable evil that holds no bounds to race, religion,and culture.
The United States is in the exact same lineage as all who came before the ascent of the US after WW two. With all that being stated, this country could have EASILY committed FAR more evil upon more people HAD the will and desire been propagated. Our military could have taken over the ENTIRE western hemisphere. After the fall of the USSR we could have taken even more military control over the eastern parts of Europe. We were the ONLY true super power left standing with no other nation that could truly be a check to us. Our nuclear arsenal alone could and would give us the ability to subjugate anyone if we wanted too. Our military technology was WAY so far ahead of anyone else in the early 90s it would have been taking candy from a baby to conquer whoever we felt like taking over. WE CHOOSE NOT TO ACT IN THAT WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION. We could have easily been the modern day Germany had we desired to do just that.
Our nation held the line in Berlin, Western Germany, and South Korea. Had we not done that....what kind of atrocities would have taken place without our presence there?? If Eastern Germany was such a GREAT place to live than why did so many of them attempt to cross the Berlin Wall under gun fire ?? My friends well to one side of the spectrum need to understand that if the State having great involvement in people's daily life is so great than why did they need walls, barbed wire fences, and machine gun towers to keep their people inside the borders????
How many people did Stalin murder??! How many people did Mao Zedong muder in China?? Polpot?? In the last 100 years... That far side of the spectrum have murdered more people than anyone else by a side wide margin... Also Germany was not what people make it out to be either in a sense. The party of Hitler was the GSWP... Muredered millions too. Add that to the list.
Again, I am fully aware of our past history of falling far short of the ideals set forth in the founding documents of the country. I also understand that in recent history our nation has made errrors in foreign policy decisions that have had negative reprocutions. But to assert somehow to make the moral equivalence argument that those mistakes somehow equate us with al queda and ISIS is just plain ludicrous. How about this... If our government was so much like those lawless, inhumane, and baseless people than wouldn't our government hunt down and hang EVERY gay person in this country?? I have an idea for you... Try having a gay rights parade in Riyadh Saudi Arabia. See how that goes for you. If our nation us the moral equivalent if those true evil people than WE WOULD have carpet bombed every city over there. We would tried to kill every man, woman, child and dog. Or we could have used 10 megaton warheads on Baghdad and Basra. Glass parkings lots for sale. We went out of our way to avoid civilian casualties. Period. We're there civilian casualties?? Of course. But let's not be foolish enough to assert that it was in purpose or that furthermore we could have easily decimated their entire cities and people. WE COULD HAVE DONE SO EASILY.
Good, bad or I different it comes down to proportionality. We have the unlimited ability to wipe off the face of the earth any country we darn well please. Does our government make mistakes at times in our foreign affairs?? Absolutely. Do I wish we would never invaded Iraq ?? Absolutely. But there is a far cry difference between a government looking to go after, terrorize, and decimate an entire group of people than having a FAR fewer number of unintended causalities as a result of a planned action. This country does not do that ON A LARGE SCALE THAT IT IS MORE THAN CAPABLE OF. Period. This moral equivalence argument is jumping a number of fences so far down the road it is a untenable position in my strongest opinion.
I see a very serious divide coming for this country that may well be irreconcilable.
 
Originally Posted By: bbhero
So exactly what "reputation earned" are you talking about?? If you still want to equate this nation with al queda, ISIS etc. etc. Then you are on your own island with other people who not only totally have a disdain for this country.
Again, I am very well aware of serious past wrongs committed by the United States. But I am also well aware if all the good things we have done has well. Good, bad or indifferent EVERY nation has a past of inhumanity, evil, and wrong actions perpetrated upon other people. There is no country that is remotely perfect. Period. Look at what happened in Rawanda in the early 90s, post fall of the communist rule in Yugoslavia. The Japanese prior to WW two in their conquering of the Chinese. Look at biblical history regarding the Assyrians, and Romans. How about the Spanish conqiustadors in the western hemisphere in their treatment of native Americans. This list can go on and on and on. Why??
This is the fallen nature of ALL mankind. Period. There is no nation, collection if people and or culture that has not done evil to another group, race, and or to their own people for that matter. Whether anyone likes it or not ... Mankind is a far from imperfect collection of beings. Capable of unspeakable evil that holds no bounds to race, religion,and culture.
The United States is in the exact same lineage as all who came before the ascent of the US after WW two. With all that being stated, this country could have EASILY committed FAR more evil upon more people HAD the will and desire been propagated. Our military could have taken over the ENTIRE western hemisphere. After the fall of the USSR we could have taken even more military control over the eastern parts of Europe. We were the ONLY true super power left standing with no other nation that could truly be a check to us. Our nuclear arsenal alone could and would give us the ability to subjugate anyone if we wanted too. Our military technology was WAY so far ahead of anyone else in the early 90s it would have been taking candy from a baby to conquer whoever we felt like taking over. WE CHOOSE NOT TO ACT IN THAT WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION. We could have easily been the modern day Germany had we desired to do just that.
Our nation held the line in Berlin, Western Germany, and South Korea. Had we not done that....what kind of atrocities would have taken place without our presence there?? If Eastern Germany was such a GREAT place to live than why did so many of them attempt to cross the Berlin Wall under gun fire ?? My friends well to one side of the spectrum need to understand that if the State having great involvement in people's daily life is so great than why did they need walls, barbed wire fences, and machine gun towers to keep their people inside the borders????
How many people did Stalin murder??! How many people did Mao Zedong muder in China?? Polpot?? In the last 100 years... That far side of the spectrum have murdered more people than anyone else by a side wide margin... Also Germany was not what people make it out to be either in a sense. The party of Hitler was the GSWP... Muredered millions too. Add that to the list.
Again, I am fully aware of our past history of falling far short of the ideals set forth in the founding documents of the country. I also understand that in recent history our nation has made errrors in foreign policy decisions that have had negative reprocutions. But to assert somehow to make the moral equivalence argument that those mistakes somehow equate us with al queda and ISIS is just plain ludicrous. How about this... If our government was so much like those lawless, inhumane, and baseless people than wouldn't our government hunt down and hang EVERY gay person in this country?? I have an idea for you... Try having a gay rights parade in Riyadh Saudi Arabia. See how that goes for you. If our nation us the moral equivalent if those true evil people than WE WOULD have carpet bombed every city over there. We would tried to kill every man, woman, child and dog. Or we could have used 10 megaton warheads on Baghdad and Basra. Glass parkings lots for sale. We went out of our way to avoid civilian casualties. Period. We're there civilian casualties?? Of course. But let's not be foolish enough to assert that it was in purpose or that furthermore we could have easily decimated their entire cities and people. WE COULD HAVE DONE SO EASILY.
Good, bad or I different it comes down to proportionality. We have the unlimited ability to wipe off the face of the earth any country we darn well please. Does our government make mistakes at times in our foreign affairs?? Absolutely. Do I wish we would never invaded Iraq ?? Absolutely. But there is a far cry difference between a government looking to go after, terrorize, and decimate an entire group of people than having a FAR fewer number of unintended causalities as a result of a planned action. This country does not do that ON A LARGE SCALE THAT IT IS MORE THAN CAPABLE OF. Period. This moral equivalence argument is jumping a number of fences so far down the road it is a untenable position in my strongest opinion.
I see a very serious divide coming for this country that may well be irreconcilable.


Very well thought out and written post.

Nice work
 
Originally Posted By: bbhero
So exactly what "reputation earned" are you talking about??


Maybe you should have stopped there and waited for the answer!

I am talking about the perspective of people in countries who have been on the wrong end of American intervention.

Since America has been the most interventionist country in recent times, there are more people around the world who have been affected by America, positively and negatively, than from other countries.

It's simple logic. If you intervene the most, you get a reputation for it. Amongst some people you will get a good reputation, amongst others you will get a bad reputation.

In those areas that you've impacted negatively, amongst those people, you've earned your reputation.

To mothers who've lost their children, children who've lost their parents or limbs, the big picture that you paint doesn't make a difference does it?

And there are a lot of people in the country who are scared about the effects of "virtuous" American intervention because they've also seen the results.
 
I am quite well aware of that is EXACTLY what YOU meant. I laid it all out there. Maybe you should go back and read what I stated. At the end of the day.... It is about proportionally...good, bad or indifferent. We could have inflicted FAR more deleterious effects on people world wide had we decided to do so. Again, I am not suggesting that we have been perfect or not make mistakes. Certainly ly we have. I swear to God at times I wish it were different too. Hurts my heart how we treated native Americans, black men and women, And people overseas. But I do not believe in ANY way shape, form or fashion that WE MAXIMIZED the potential damage we COULD have done to other people. Proportionally... It's like people saying how many dead soldiers we had in Iraq.... Like Olbermann speaking of the number all the time. I am seriously not in any way trying to diminish their loss. But we lost more people in ONE day at Normandy than in what seven years plus in Iraq??? Proportionally.. We lost 290,000 men in WW two in 4 years plus. Math my friend.
Our nation could have done FAR more acts if inhumanity than ALL previous world powers COMBINED. Period. That is not a fact that can be argued with in my strongest of opinions.
Again, this nation is like a singular human being. Flawed, immoral, and commits acts of evil at times. Yet that same person can be kind, commit acts of righteousness, and be humbled enough to fall to one knee, ask for forgiveness and attempt to make past wrongs right. Are we there yet?? No way. But God bless America ... If you carry this much disdain for this country YOU live in ... Why do you stay?? Unlike East Germany we don't have armed gun towers, brick and concrete walls, and barbed wire keeping you here.
I do not agree remotely with people who somehow act like we are always perfect or NEVER made mistakes at home or abroad. It strains the limits of credulity to even find that to be believable. This nation is just like the person writing this........ A fallen man, who has struggled, hurt his fellow man, and not lived up to what he should have been. Period. But the person typing this is also the man who has shown true compassion for the sick and dying, holding a black lady as she cried after her 90 year old mother had just passed on with tears in my eyes, a man who with a FULL room of people administered a pain med for a young lady with cancer close to dying speaking to them with tears in his eyes sharing with them, and a man who shared with a patient who has multiple sclerosis that I have the same disease... That I understood where he was at.... I knew how it felt to have to stand five feet from the TV because he couldn't see it good because I had been there too. I didn't know until laterca lady from that floor came over to me and said "I don't know what you said to him, but it really really helped him."
I am like this fallen country. We are one in the same.... I've done so much wrong. Now for the past good number of years I pray I have done enough good and right to make those past sins right. I know I am not there yet. Neither is this country either.... Work to be done. Keep the hand to the plow.. God bless America.... I know this countrys wrongs which are many... But @#$% it , we have done a lot right too... I don't know if I have lived up to who I need to be... But I sure don't want someone judging me ALL the time by all the WRONGS I have committed ONLY... Because, darn I have NO CHANCE if that is the case. ZERO
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted By: bbhero
But I do not believe in ANY way shape, form or fashion that WE MAXIMIZED the potential damage we COULD have done to other people.


Originally Posted By: bbhero
Math my friend. Our nation could have done FAR more acts if inhumanity than ALL previous world powers COMBINED. Period. That is not a fact that can be argued with in my strongest of opinions.


There are bad things that happen when you have good intentions and there are tough choices you have to make for the greater good. I understand that.

But then there are things that cross the line and this country has done those things as well. I just suggest some sympathy for those who suffered, some understanding that they might be distrustful that's all. They don't need to hear we weren't as bad as other people in other places at other times when we could have been.

If we deny these bad things that we did, how do we prevent them from happening again? It's all part of the learning required to ensure that our reasons for intervention are well thought out and our conduct does not lose sight of who we are.

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Again, this nation is like a singular human being. Flawed, immoral, and commits acts of evil at times. Yet that same person can be kind, commit acts of righteousness, and be humbled enough to fall to one knee, ask for forgiveness and attempt to make past wrongs right.


And yet if that individual was hauled up in front of court, the argument would be about the victim they harmed. Their other acts of kindness would only mitigate the sentence received, not exonerate them.

Originally Posted By: bbhero
If you carry this much disdain for this country YOU live in ... Why do you stay??


Where did I express disdain? I simply observed that I understand why some people will form an impression of this country that is not favorable. Just like I understand why you are saying what you are.

Originally Posted By: bbhero
I do not agree remotely with people who somehow act like we are always perfect or NEVER made mistakes at home or abroad. It strains the limits of credulity to even find that to be believable.


That I think is the bigger problem than those who point out the negatives truthfully. Just because someone points out negatives, does not mean they don't appreciate the positives.

But when we have institutions, be they govt, church, large corporations, who are so focused on avoiding negatives that they deny truth, then we always have big problems and people who needlessly suffer because ultimately institutions have become more powerful than an individual. And be in no doubt, the idea of "America" is very much an institution for many.

Originally Posted By: bbhero
But I sure don't want someone judging me ALL the time by all the WRONGS I have committed ONLY... Because, darn I have NO CHANCE if that is the case. ZERO
frown.gif



As I said before, if your wrongs are wrong enough or if your judge is biased, then your good deeds will only be a mitigation either at sentencing or once you've proven good behavior in the slammer.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you about forgiveness and looking for the good in people. But a large majority of your fellow citizens don't.
 
First and foremost...where have I denied any wrong doings of this country?? I am well aware of them and furthermore mentioned them nemerous times. Secondly... You SEEM to always see the negative picture if this country. I do not disagree with your thoughts there.. At all. But to only focus on the negative is not fair, accurate, and historically accurate. Just as it is neither historically accurate to pretend that this nation has been perfect or near perfect in its domestic or foreign policy. I am just presenting as I see it a balanced account of this nation. It is just like an individual person in MANY regards whether anyone likes it or not. Period.
You don't know me from Adams house cat. Just the same the other way. But let me make this overwhelming, exceptionally crystal clear that the correlation I made between this countrys history and myself is remarkably similar. You don't have any idea where I have been, what I've done or have not done. But let me tell you this.... I don't want someone to focus ONLY on just the wrong I have done. Those stories about myself that I stated in that last post... Happened.
I don't agree with people who act the USA is always right no matter what. In this nations history this country has done many things wrong. Whether it be slavery, Jim Crow, and the Taney Supreme Court decision. But we have made serious strides in the right direction. Are we where we need to be?? No. I agree with that.
The court of history is unlike a General District Court. I've been in one... The court of history is a balance of scales to whether or not a nation was more or less evil, just, unjust and or good in general. Those are not in the same realm in much regards to each other.. We judge past nations by the balance of what they did. It is my strong supposition that currently this nations scale is tilted more towards a positive side. It's not a slam dunk
smile.gif

But compare our nation to MANY in the middle East and Asia. Our women have FAR more freedom than they could ever dream of over there. Gay people would be executed in MANY nations over there.
Black men and women have a better situation over all than 50 years ago. But is it where it needs to be??? FAR from it in a number of ways. Many answers need to be found to make it better for them. And NOT all those answers lay with one side of the spectrum or the other either.
The worst off are likely the native Americans.. What needs to be done to make circumstances better for them are many.. And again the answers are not held by either deep end of the spectrum.
Again, I NEVER denied the wrongs committed by this nation. Do I have empathy for those people hurt by our policies whether domestic or foreign ?? Yes. Absolutely. Just like I did with that lady who's mother had just passed on. I held that lady fot almost ten minutes. Heck, I had tears in my eyes a bunch too.
Look man, I wish our predecessors had handled MANY things differently. I also seee the positive good this nation has done too.
When I was in court that day.... And later on thinking how to make things right as I could. I realized it was up to me to do what was right everyday to make it right as I could. I try. I am a fallen, wayward man that is looking to attempt to make a positive difference for other people in this world. I do try to see people has God sees them... To love them, listen to them, hug them if needed, give them hope, experiences, and my advice to help them find a better way.
I want us as a NATION to do the same... It will not just be the government who will lead us to the better way forward. It will take leaders in the community, and us as individuals to make the changes to be who we need to be. The answers are not in the possession of one end if the spectrum or the other. But if we continue down the path we are on than we are headed for seriously rough times ahead.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bbhero
First and foremost...where have I denied any wrong doings of this country??


Why are you even thinking that my comments about denial are directed at you?

That couldn't possibly make sense because I'm clearly reading your points where you acknowledge some of the actual instances of wrong doing.

Look, we're far more in agreement than you realize. There's no need to assume I don't comprehend what is positive about this country and what is negative about other countries, just because I limited my post to why the US may be perceived unfavorably.

You may want to think about why you're being so sensitive and emotional about this.
 
I do agree that there probably more agreement than may have been noticed
smile.gif

My response is the way it is because I have gotten tired of people running this country down way too much for my taste.. It just grates my nerves. Though I have zero problem with an honest, candid, and open discussion about the past history as well.
I enjoy the discussion. I really do because it makes me think, understand, and have to defend or propose points of view. I am a very real down to earth country boy that has been through a lot. But I am very fortunate and blessed too. I can relate to people who have had it hard. Because I have had it hard too.
At the end of the day... I just want our country to be the best we can. Just like I would want to do myself. Thus the correlation there. I firmly believe it is an apt one at that
smile.gif

You know what.. You are right in that we agree to a decent degree. Being perfectly honest... We need more people like yourself and me who can have a discussion to where we can get a little bit fired up but in the end... Realize that we can talk to each other, find commonality, and maybe some answers that could well help this country
smile.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom