Gasoline vehicle with 100 MPG possible ???

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
The Tesla is a very nice looking car, but it is currently vaporware. The Bolt is a real car.

The Bolt isn't a real car yet, not until the end of this year.

Tesla model 3 is probably about 2.5-3 years away.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: dishdude
The Tesla is a very nice looking car, but it is currently vaporware. The Bolt is a real car.

The Bolt isn't a real car yet, not until the end of this year.

Tesla model 3 is probably about 2.5-3 years away.


The Bolt is in pilot pre production right now and will start production supposedly in October (less than 4 months away....). Cars will start to be delivered to customers in Q4.

It's about as real of a car as you can get before having it delivered.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: dishdude
The Tesla is a very nice looking car, but it is currently vaporware. The Bolt is a real car.

The Bolt isn't a real car yet, not until the end of this year.

Tesla model 3 is probably about 2.5-3 years away.

The Bolt is in pilot pre production right now and will start production supposedly in October (less than 4 months away....). Cars will start to be delivered to customers in Q4.

It's about as real of a car as you can get before having it delivered.

Real car is the one I can seat in or touch the roof or kick the tires. I can't do any of those things with a Bolt yet so it isn't real until the end of this year.

 

[Nate1979]

^^^^ Attend an auto show? It was at the Chicago Auto show in May.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The 2016 Prius has an engine with 40% thermal efficiency. The best internal combustion ever made is just a tick over 50% thermally efficient. And it is an absolutely huge diesel.

It's not likely we will see significant gains in internal combustion technology. As 40% is already pushing the limits for small gasoline engines.


Just for giggles, here's the efficiency of Ca's electricity fleet.

http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/web_qfer/Heat_Rates.php

The last column is "heat rate', the amount of BTU required for 1KWh of electricity...divide 3412 (BTU in a KWh), by the heat rate (BTU needed to PRODUCE a KWh), and you have thermal efficiency.

e.g.
Intermountain Power Project H.R. 9,818 - thermal efficiency is 34.75%, and it's one of the best ones on the page.
Coalinga Cogeneration Facility H.R. 14,686 - thermal efficiency 23.23...and it's about par.

A Natural gas Prius would do a FAR better job of turning energy into miles than an EV fed off the above.


That's a pretty [censored] summation. IIRC, transmission line losses are "about" 10%. Shipping fuel from the ground to a refinery to a fuel station is... this link indicates about 80% for well-to-pump (see page 15), or about 20% losses. So the best natural gas is about 35%, or about 32% by the time it gets to your house; minus what, another 10% in battery charging and then battery discharging? maybe even higher. So well to wheels is around 28%. A 40% ICE, minus 20% shipping losses, is 32%.

 

[Cujet]

WOW, thank you for the post! I had not seen that data. Very interesting indeed. Interesting thoughts on NG too! Thinking aloud here, the higher octane of NG may enable considerably higher compression, and the possibility of efficiency gains.


Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The 2016 Prius has an engine with 40% thermal efficiency. The best internal combustion ever made is just a tick over 50% thermally efficient. And it is an absolutely huge diesel.

It's not likely we will see significant gains in internal combustion technology. As 40% is already pushing the limits for small gasoline engines.


Just for giggles, here's the efficiency of Ca's electricity fleet.

http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/web_qfer/Heat_Rates.php

The last column is "heat rate', the amount of BTU required for 1KWh of electricity...divide 3412 (BTU in a KWh), by the heat rate (BTU needed to PRODUCE a KWh), and you have thermal efficiency.

e.g.
Intermountain Power Project H.R. 9,818 - thermal efficiency is 34.75%, and it's one of the best ones on the page.
Coalinga Cogeneration Facility H.R. 14,686 - thermal efficiency 23.23...and it's about par.

A Natural gas Prius would do a FAR better job of turning energy into miles than an EV fed off the above.

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
I was in Vancouver last week, sitting in traffic with many others, all getting ZERO MPG!! I was looking around trying to imagine why the occupants of the vehicles needed to be there.
I will play along. Why were *you* in Vancouver? Couldn't you have just e-mailed it in?

 

[Cujet]

Let's employ every bit of know how we have, but avoid hybrid drive. Direct injection, high compression, low rpm engines or Direct injection diesel, fewer, larger cylinders, airplane like aerodynamics, auto shutoff, wicked low rolling resistance tires, and more.

The result falls far short of 100mpg. In fact there have been many attempts at this. Not one has achieved 100mpg! In fact, not even close

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
^^^^ Attend an auto show? It was at the Chicago Auto show in May.

Attended Tesla Model 3 unveil few months ago in Torrance California ? they had few cars on stage and for "Test Ride".

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
... EVs can't in any way, shape of form be considered Zero Emission...it's just a feel good NIMBY boondoggle...as for hydrogen...even more so.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
US, California and many other states defined a Zero Emission vehicle as the one that produces no emission at tail pipe. BEV has no tail pipe so it doesn't produce any emission, may be the tires may emit some.

US, California and few other states currently have incentives for BEV and FCV for being ZEV.

California demands a percentage of all vehicles sold in the state to be ZEV, some companies are making plug-in hybrid, BEV ... as compliance vehicles and sold them at a lost rather than buying carbon credit from Tesla.

Sources of electric to charge battery, battery manufacture and recycle ... are different story.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yeah, you said that...and I responded that it was a NIMBY burying your head mentality...especially as running the numbers on the leaf, it's no better than a hybrid GHG wise, and probably worse.

As long as US government and California define BEV as ZEV, it is okay with me. How the electric is generated and how efficient from generation to usage in a BEV isn't my concern.

Not only US and California are promoting BEV, European countries and some Asian countries are promoting BEV as clean vehicles too.

If BEV is not ZEV and not as efficient as other methods why don't you convince your government to adapt the other alternatives to combat emission and to reduce importing oil ?

Below is the incentive Austrian Government gave to BEV. If BEV is so dirty why your government subsidizes dirty vehicles, is your government so stupid as you think ?

Austria: Electric vehicles are exempt from the fuel consumption tax, levied upon the first registration, and from the monthly vehicle tax. In addition to tax breaks, hybrid vehicles and other alternative fuel vehicles benefit from a fuel consumption tax that pays bonuses to passenger cars with low carbon dioxide output. Alternative fuel vehicles, including hybrids, qualify for as much as €800 (around US$1,120) in annual bonuses. This bonus was valid from 1 July 2008 until 31 August 2012.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Let's employ every bit of know how we have, but avoid hybrid drive. Direct injection, high compression, low rpm engines or Direct injection diesel, fewer, larger cylinders, airplane like aerodynamics, auto shutoff, wicked low rolling resistance tires, and more.

The result falls far short of 100mpg. In fact there have been many attempts at this. Not one has achieved 100mpg! In fact, not even close

Breaking 2,500 mpg, Canadian Team Wins High-Efficiency Race
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2011/04/110418-shell-ecomarathon-houston-winners/


Obviously not suitable for public roads, but the technology is there to get good mileage, just not the market for it.

The VW XL1 already gets up to 120mpg on its diesel engine alone and much more as a hybrid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car
Quote:

In February 2013, Volkswagen announced that it expected the XL1 to achieve a fuel economy of 0.9 l/100 km (260 mpg-US; 310 mpg-imp) and emissions of 21 g/km of CO2. The test cycle allows for a re-charge of the battery every 75 km (47 mi) which results in a high mpg value. Using diesel alone the car is capable of up to 2.0 l/100 km (120 mpg-US; 140 mpg-imp). As with the 2011 concept XL1, it is powered by an 800 cm3 two-cylinder diesel engine with 35 kW (48 PS; 47 bhp) and a 20 kW (27 PS; 27 bhp) electric motor, delivering power to the rear wheels through a seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox. The drag coefficient has increased slightly from 0.186 to 0.189.[19] The production version is expected to deliver an all-electric range of 50 km (31 mi).[18]

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Let's employ every bit of know how we have, but avoid hybrid drive. Direct injection, high compression, low rpm engines or Direct injection diesel, fewer, larger cylinders, airplane like aerodynamics, auto shutoff, wicked low rolling resistance tires, and more.

The result falls far short of 100mpg. In fact there have been many attempts at this. Not one has achieved 100mpg! In fact, not even close


Just to clarify are you meaning that we can't use the bolded items to reach 100mpg? Because if you use all of those options yes 100mpg or better is possible and been demonstrated. If you can't use those technologies then not sure what is the point.

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

I used to live 50 minutes from work. I now live 5 minutes from work. I have recovered 90 minutes of my life each work day and cut my commuting fuel use by 85% (and could cut it to zero 4 days a week by cycling). Working 240 days a year I have given myself 360 hours. That's 9 weeks at 40hrs/wk. An extra $10k/year to move back to the country would only pay me $27.78/hr, $41.67/day and I would have to deduct 47 mi/day commuting expenses from that. At a slim $.20/mile that's $9.40/day hypothetically netting me $32.27/day before taxes. Thank God I don't need the money. I make the same now as I did with the commute so my life is seriously improved having moved out of the country and into a house in the city.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
... EVs can't in any way, shape of form be considered Zero Emission...it's just a feel good NIMBY boondoggle...as for hydrogen...even more so.

Your opinion doesn't carry any weight in many countries, including your own country Autralia.

The opinion of many countries in Europe, Asia, Australia ... BEV is a Zero emission vehicle, that why they gave incentives to people who buy BEV and plug-in hybrid. In some cases the incentive can be more than 10,000 $US such as the state of Colorado has $6000 and US has $7500 cash back for BEV, the total cash back can be as high as $13,500.

According to US and California BEV is one of the ZEV's

Quote:
In California: The Clean Vehicle Rebate Project (CVRP), initially funded with a total of US$4.1 million by the California Environmental Protection Agency’s Air Resources Board (ARB), was established in order to promote the production and use of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs), including plug-in electric and fuel cell vehicles. The program was created from Assembly Bill 118 that was signed by Governor Schwarzenegger in October 2007. The funding is provided on a first-come, first-served basis, and the project is expected to go through 2015.[187]


To you, a dirty Diesel such as VW diesel is a clean engine, but nobody would buy your idea.

Look at the list of countries that are supporting BEV and none think that dirty VW diesel engine is a ZEV, only you think the cheated VW diesel engine is a good engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: newsweek.com/quora-question
Let me warn you—whenever I write about electric cars I draw furious and angry responses from many people. It is remarkable how deep is the love of the electric car concept, and how many people consider my view to be blasphemy! Many people will argue that I am wrong, or don’t have any vision. I respond by saying that the proponents of electric cars show “optimism bias.” That is, they believe that the serious problems inherent in electric cars will be solved, yet they choose to be pessimistic about similar improvements in gasoline cars (e.g. 100 mpg gas mileage, which are well within the technology).


Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Obviously not suitable for public roads, but the technology is there to get good mileage, just not the market for it.

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Just to clarify are you meaning that we can't use the bolded items to reach 100mpg? Because if you use all of those options yes 100mpg or better is possible and been demonstrated. If you can't use those technologies then not sure what is the point.

Did you read the one I quoted from Quora above ? If you don't believe what I quoted then click on the link
http://www.newsweek.com/quora-question-i...an-tesla-476122

To you it is possible to produce an ordinary gasoline car that people can buy and use daily for less than $50k and can do 100 MPG ? Ordinary car is a vehicle can carry 4 average person in reasonable comfort and can do speed limit in most states of USA.


Remember the safety and smog equipment of today vehicle is much different than 20-30 years ago. Back then you may have gasoline car capable of 45-50 MPG, and then you extrapolate that achievement to today technology and say it is possible to do 100 MPG is totally wrong.

Remember that the best gasoline car in US market available today can only do 40-45 MPG on highway , less for city driving. Only hybrid can do 50-55 MPG combined.

Remember this professor said "gasoline car", not diesel nor hybrid.

 

[Cujet]

Even so, I believe the tesla cars driving experience is so good, the car stands on its own.

A friend powers both his tesla cars via a grid tie 8500w (I believe it's 8500, might be 10k) solar array. His solar power generation fully offsets his cars. Very cool.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Your opinion doesn't carry any weight in many countries, including your own country Autralia.

The opinion of many countries in Europe, Asia, Australia ... BEV is a Zero emission vehicle, that why they gave incentives to people who buy BEV and plug-in hybrid. In some cases the incentive can be more than 10,000 $US such as the state of Colorado has $6000 and US has $7500 cash back for BEV, the total cash back can be as high as $13,500.


Sorry mate, as an engineer, it's not an "opinion", it's engineering fact.

These decisons, these subsidies, these targets and regulations are in no way shape, or form based on engineering, science (climate or otherwise), they are based on lobbyists, political factions, and feel good policies that make know nothing voters feel wonderful that they are doing something...

and they (obviously) work for their intended audience...who defend them as science first off, then as "well they must know something that the engineers don't"...as you amply demonstrate in this and other threads.

The same people who are offering those incentives gave solar panel owners 60c/KWh for the solar that they generated (retail was 22c, and wholesale 4.5)...nearly three times what electricity was worth...and then gave them five tonnes of carbon credits for every tonne of Carbon that they saved with their panels.

It's social engineering and wealth redistribution, and the Oz Govt at teh time was caught saying exactly that.

So please don't say that political motivations know more than the simple engineering truth that I have tried to expose you to.

Putting your fingers in your ears and singling lalala doesn't make the facts of energy consumption, conversion, and emissions false.

These vehicles simply move the problems from your backyard to someone elses...ultimate in NIMBY thinking.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To you it is possible to produce an ordinary gasoline car that people can buy and use daily for less than $50k and can do 100 MPG ? Ordinary car is a vehicle can carry 4 average person in reasonable comfort and can do speed limit in most states of USA.


And your Tesla, in terms of cycle energy efficiency and carbon emissions can't do the equivalent either ?

Oh yeah, some politician said it's "zero"...LOL

 

[Nebroch]

Current rather high battery prices tell, that a lot of resources and energy have been used to build them (=emissions created in the process). Lithium and cobalt must be mined etc. That's another place where emissions are displaced from ICEs tailpipe.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
To you it is possible to produce an ordinary gasoline car that people can buy and use daily for less than $50k and can do 100 MPG ? Ordinary car is a vehicle can carry 4 average person in reasonable comfort and can do speed limit in most states of USA.

And your Tesla, in terms of cycle energy efficiency and carbon emissions can't do the equivalent either ?

Oh yeah, some politician said it's "zero"...LOL

What is wrong with you ? Did you read the title ? It is "Gasoline vehicle with 100 MPG"

Just talk about "100 MPG is well within current technology as claimed by a UC Berkeley professor."

A BEV, Tesla or Nissan or ..., with solar power or wind energy is dirtier than your cheated VW diesel engine ?

Why don't you wake up, you are dreaming about somehow the dirty diesel engine in a VW is cleaner than a BEV, even though many scientists/engineers of many countries think otherwise.