Gasoline vehicle with 100 MPG possible ???

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Current rather high battery prices tell, that a lot of resources and energy have been used to build them (=emissions created in the process). Lithium and cobalt must be mined etc. That's another place where emissions are displaced from ICEs tailpipe.

Somehow oil is on the face of the earth, you just scoop it up and magically it becomes gasoline for you to fill your tank.

Did you ever read a comparison of energy used and carbon emission between BEV and ICE from manufacture to end of life ?

Do you know Exxon Valdez accident in Alaska ? Do you know BP accident in Gulf of Mexico ? Do you know dozens accidents involved crude oil transportation by rail every year around the world ? Do you know oil pipeline ruptured around the world every year ?

When you talk about environmental cost of manufacture battery for BEV you should compare it with how gasoline is produced.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A BEV, Tesla or Nissan or ..., with solar power or wind energy is dirtier than your cheated VW diesel engine ?

Why don't you wake up, you are dreaming about somehow the dirty diesel engine in a VW is cleaner than a BEV, even though many scientists/engineers of many countries think otherwise.


OK, dig out the post where I claimed that a diesel was cleaner than solar electric...if you can't find it, send me one of those $50 dinners that you promise everyone.

My diesel reference was in the Levelised cost of energy storage regarding batteries...it will cost you 30c/Kwh lifecycle costs just to charge and discharge your Telsla even with free electrcityi, diesel is 25c/kW.

That's what I said...go to the Levelised Cost of Storage thread.

As to solar and wind...where are they ?

I demonstrated that your ZEVs are just as dirty as the vehicles that they are intended to discplace, just ove the pollution to someone elses back yard...what's so hard to accept about that ?

You introduced "clean" natural gas, I introduced how inefficiently you are using it, and that n NG prius (well a petrol prius too) does a cleaner job.

When wind and solar are king, you won't be able to afford:
* the three times nameplate rating over thermal;
* the batteries to store 2/3 of your States daily consumption and release it when need it.

You won't be getting free electricity to fill your Tesla.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Did you ever read a comparison of energy used and carbon emission between BEV and ICE from manufacture to end of life ?


Sounds like an edcuational experience...please post one, and the lifecycle cost of ownership of the two, including the costruction costs of the energy generation...it would be well worth a read.

And as you don't like simulations, desktops or other, make a real life study...

we would like to be educated.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Let's employ every bit of know how we have, but avoid hybrid drive. Direct injection, high compression, low rpm engines or Direct injection diesel, fewer, larger cylinders, airplane like aerodynamics, auto shutoff, wicked low rolling resistance tires, and more.

The result falls far short of 100mpg. In fact there have been many attempts at this. Not one has achieved 100mpg! In fact, not even close


Just to clarify are you meaning that we can't use the bolded items to reach 100mpg? Because if you use all of those options yes 100mpg or better is possible and been demonstrated. If you can't use those technologies then not sure what is the point.


I'm currently renting a Nissan Altima. It's getting 31MPG by driving carefully. It seats 4, has a nice trunk and drives well. With today's requirements for safety, emissions, and size (yes, American's are bigger and taller than ever, and that won't stop) It's not likely that internal combustion thermal efficiency will improve to the point where the Altima's capability can be replaced by a 100MPG car without hybrid drive.

The BMW i3 comes closest with it's range extender engine, slippery shape and bicycle skinny tires. Even so, the engine only provides about 35MPG. Besides the obvious losses in generating electricity to charge a battery that drives a motor, there are the practical thermodynamic limits again. We can only create so much HP from a given quantity of fuel. 40% thermal efficiency is, at this point, the practical limit. The best ever, experimental, non emissions compliant, automotive engine achieves 44%.

It takes a certain amount of energy to accelerate a given mass to high speed, and to overcome various forms of drag. So, 80MPH and 100MPG remain elusive in practical terms. Right up there with the 800 mile battery that can be recharged 1000's of times. Electrochemical limits exist also.

I remain unaware of any 100MPG 4 passenger cars. Many have tried.

 

[Nate1979]

I will post this again since no one commented. There are examples of taking small cars, making them very low Cd and getting very high mpg. Example here: www.aerocivic.com
95mpg (E0) @ 65mph was demonstrated in an eco modded Honda Civic.

There are other examples out there if you search the web.

These cars do not use exotic engine technology. But they are a little old and not sure how they could be modified to meet today's emissions. They also do not meet today's safety. However, if you take a small light car (Mirage?), mod it with very low Cd technology I think it could get close.

Consumers would hate the design but very low Cd designs are out there (Ford Probe V concept car had Cd < 0.17).

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Somehow oil is on the face of the earth, you just scoop it up and magically it becomes gasoline for you to fill your tank.

Did you ever read a comparison of energy used and carbon emission between BEV and ICE from manufacture to end of life ?

Do you know Exxon Valdez accident in Alaska ? Do you know BP accident in Gulf of Mexico ? Do you know dozens accidents involved crude oil transportation by rail every year around the world ? Do you know oil pipeline ruptured around the world every year ?

When you talk about environmental cost of manufacture battery for BEV you should compare it with how gasoline is produced.


-In oil production the thing is EROI, energy return of energy invested. It's poor with shale oil, very good in middle east.

-So how many % of oil consumed is spilled to the seas and ground? Those lithium and cobalt mines run on diesel too.

"Did you ever read a comparison of energy used and carbon emission between BEV and ICE from manufacture to end of life ?"

Such comparison would probably look surprisingly bad for current EVs. Maybe cheaper and more durable batteries are invented in the future.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I will post this again since no one commented. There are examples of taking small cars, making them very low Cd and getting very high mpg. Example here: www.aerocivic.com
95mpg (E0) @ 65mph was demonstrated in an eco modded Honda Civic.

There are other examples out there if you search the web.


I think you need to get total drag down to 8 or 9KW (12hp) required to do the required speed...my mini example used 15KW.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I will post this again since no one commented. There are examples of taking small cars, making them very low Cd and getting very high mpg. Example here: www.aerocivic.com
95mpg (E0) @ 65mph was demonstrated in an eco modded Honda Civic.

).


I looked at that and don't believe him. You might achieve those numbers for a few seconds. I can let off the gas on the hwy and get 60mpg in my mustang according to the computer for a short time.

All that extra sheet metal adds weight that will kill mpg in city driving.

When you average it all out he hasn't done a thing.

 

[HTSS_TR]

So far it seems only cujet understand this statement from a UC Berkeley Professor "they choose to be pessimistic about similar improvements in gasoline cars (e.g. 100 mpg gas mileage, which are well within the technology)."

"Cars" here are ordinary cars that an average family can own for their family daily use, be it to and from work or shopping or vacation trips or anything an ordinary car can do now. Nothing fancy, just enough room for 4, can do speed limit in any state in US and doesn't cost a fortune to buy.

Cujet's selection of Nissan Altima is a little too big and heavy, I give the genius professor the benefit I am saying the smallest car that has room for 4 skinny person is the minimum standard for family car. Can this smallest gasoline car achieve 100 MPG with current technology ? How about 10 year later ? How about 20-30-40 years ?

Remember, the genius professor is in US so he talked about cars available in US and to be able to sell to public it must meet safety and emission laws of US, not Africa jungle.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
1) Physics is not engineering.

Well, in light of turtlevette's comment about that this maybe working in a vacuum, most physics problems expect one to ignore air resistance altogether, so maybe you're onto something.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
1) Physics is not engineering.

Well, in light of turtlevette's comment about that this maybe working in a vacuum, most physics problems expect one to ignore air resistance altogether, so maybe you're onto something.

Don't forget to ignore friction as well or at least pick a nice constant.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I will post this again since no one commented. There are examples of taking small cars, making them very low Cd and getting very high mpg. Example here: www.aerocivic.com
95mpg (E0) @ 65mph was demonstrated in an eco modded Honda Civic.

).


I looked at that and don't believe him. You might achieve those numbers for a few seconds.

Spot on turtle...you've seen many many trends in your life...a generous man would give them high 60s average.

 

[Cujet]

Found a number of very interesting articles on the 2 seat VW XL1. With all sorts of wild MPG claims. Such as 285MPG. Real world users report 120MPG using the charge.

However, it's a plug in hybrid, and once the charge has been depleted, in hybrid mode it ALSO achieves, with a real-world hypermiling driver, 120MPG at speeds varying between 40 and 60MPH.

It's claimed to achieve 138MPG on the European cycle with charge depleted. Quote: " European method of measuring fuel consumption of plug-in hybrids is not good"

Let's look at this 0.8L diesel powered, 2 seat car another way. We want to drive, in one day, 1000 miles. The highway trip will achieve a real-world highway MPG of about 80MPG at sub-par 65MPH. About double what a well tuned jetta will achieve.

And,,,, don't forget that diesel fuel contains more energy per gallon than gasoline.

 

[Nebroch]

European cycle is simply worthless. There's so much cheating going on in that test, and in EU there's no need to achieve those figures in real driving.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
European cycle is simply worthless. There's so much cheating going on in that test, and in EU there's no need to achieve those figures in real driving.

EPA test cycle is the toughest and close to real world driving. Some even can do better than EPA mileage at highway speed of 70-75 MPH. City mileage is another story, most couldn't get close to EPA number.

 

[Silk]

I used to get 100mpg (Imperial) out of 650 Triumphs and other '60's British twins in the '70's. I still ride a 650 2 valve pushrod twin with the same hp, and it doesn't get anywhere near those figures. It is heavier, but we were using higher octane fuels back then.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Silk
I used to get 100mpg (Imperial) out of 650 Triumphs and other '60's British twins in the '70's. I still ride a 650 2 valve pushrod twin with the same hp, and it doesn't get anywhere near those figures. It is heavier, but we were using higher octane fuels back then.

Pollution regulation back then wasn't as strict as now, especially in US.

It is possible to make a small/light motorcycle to achieve 100 MPG, but it is impossible to produce a car that carries 4 persons and capable of 80 MPH and 100 MPG and pass US pollution regulation with current technology.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
European cycle is simply worthless. There's so much cheating going on in that test, and in EU there's no need to achieve those figures in real driving.


Agreed. That's why I posted about the uber high tech, ultra-aero, VW 2 seat, 2 cylinder diesel (with awesome BSFC) hybrid, that still cannot achieve better than 80MPG highway.

Bottom line, 100MPG in a 4 pax car is not going to happen at normal highway speeds.

Light aviation is a great comparison, as aircraft have far lower drag than cars. And propulsive efficiency is very similar. In fact, the 45 year old engine in my Cessna has a BSFC number that the Prius can just barely match!

4 pax Aircraft can't achieve 100MPG, and neither can cars.