Ford tractor 8N oil canister converted to TP filter

[RalphPWood]

Many years ago I worked for a guy with a Mustang dragster. He pulled the Mustang with a early 60s Chevy Suburban with a 292 big 6. He told me to put a Frantz oil cleaner on it with a Frantz adapter that eliminated the full flow filter. Without the full flow filter he could monitor the condition of the engine by what was showing up on the top of the toilet paper. Without the full flow filter the 292 was the same as the 235. He didnt change the oil but changed the toilet paper and added a quart of Standard Delo 20 W. I suggested Delo 30W. He got Valvoline racing oil free. Sponsored by Chevrolet. Put a Motor Guard on his Plymouth Fury before I left.

 

[RalphPWood]

Many years ago I worked for a guy with a Mustang dragster. He pulled the Mustang with a early 60s Chevy Suburban with a 292 big 6. He told me to put a Frantz oil cleaner on it with a Frantz adapter that eliminated the full flow filter. Without the full flow filter he could monitor the condition of the engine by what was showing up on the top of the toilet paper. Without the full flow filter the 292 was the same as the 235. He didnt change the oil but changed the toilet paper and added a quart of Standard Delo 20 W. I suggested Delo 30W. He got Valvoline racing oil free. Put a Motor Guard on his Plymouth Fury before I left. Sponsored by Chevrolet.

 

[RalphPWood]

So the guy removed the spin-on filter and ONLY ran the Frantz filter?

If so, no wonder the bearings were badly worn. If he was only running the Frantz as a "full flow" filter, instead of a bypass filter along with a full flow spin-on filter, then the engine was probably not getting the proper oil flow to the oiling system.

No such thing as running a Frantz as a full flow filter.

 

[RalphPWood]

No such thing as running a Frantz as a full flow filter.

In the old days filters were all bypass filters and were usually optional equipment. Full flow filters didnt come until the 50s. My 1960 Rambler flat head 6 didnt come with a filter.I was surprised when Rambler put a half assed filter on the 64 flat head 6. I dont remember paying extra for it.

 

[RalphPWood]

I would seriously avoid the tp oil filter. Last summer I bought a 64 galaxie that had a frantz tp oil filter installed since the 70s. When I tore the engine down for rebuild, which was all original and never touched it wasn't super dirty but the bearings were very worn out for the mileage and looked like they had a lot of debris go through them. The crankshaft even had a groove worn on the mains. I had oil change records for most of its life and it got 2000 to 2500 mile oil changes. Really doubt the TP filter did it any favors. I've torn apart much nastier and higher mileage fe engines that had better bearing using a spin in filter. I took that thing off immediately.

All a toilet paper filter does is send a steady stream of clean oil to the oil pan. My old f 250 with the 390 engine has a over 50 year old Motor Guard toilet paper filter.

 

[RalphPWood]

Originally Posted by Lubener
Interesting. I am a little leary of that fiber washer under the bolt holding up to the higher pressures.


On mine it is a double sided copper washer that has a fiber interior. It looks very original, its probably from the 1940's, been squashed good but it still seals, no leaks.

I have 3 similar canisters on my 1970 boat. They look different, are wider than the 8N and the top is very different shape, uses a much wider rubber gasket. They can use the same exact filter number, Fram C3P. These 3 canisters do not have a drain. Neither did the 8N I got off Ebay, I had to drill and tap a hole. Later model 8N canisters did have a factory oil drain.

None of them leak, I have not replaced the seal on the bolt. I think one of the bolt seals is a plain copper washer, and one might be a steel washer, or they may not even have a seal washer. The bolt is very smooth and flanged where it meets the top.

Anyone know who made these? Someone suggested Purolator.
And remember, I have reversed the oil flow on the 8N from the original design, so as to work with a TP roll filter.
And I read on a tractor forum, the store bought filters with a metal outer case such as made by WIX 51010 (with a crappy 32 micron rating though, Donaldson is at 20, and Fram C3P used to be 2 to 5 before they redesigned it cheaper) , can have input and output lines switched.
Switching the oil flow direction is better, IMO, since you dont have old stale oil sitting in the canister. The oil drains out the added bottom fitting I drilled and tapped on the bottom where it ramps up. I matched the later versions of the 8N filter canister so my added hole is in the same spot.

pictures show my un modified boat filters. I think being wider, they may not work with TP. Someday I will check that. Maybe blue shop towels.

View attachment 12906

View attachment 12908

 

[RalphPWood]

If that was the only filter on it, I completely agree. An engine should always have a full flow standard oil filter. My 1962 Buick had a spin on full flow oil filter. If an engine only has a bypass filter, what good is that! Unfiltered oil is circulating to the bearings etc...
If it had a full flow filter, then you can not blame the bypass filter for all that damage.
And oil from decades past was lousy compared to today's engine oil.

A bypass filter should only be an add on type filter to slowly clean oil, never the primary filter.
On my 1970 boat engines, ran into similar issue as you. Engine only had bypass filters from OEM design. Both engines needed new main bearings. And prior owner wore one out so bad entire engine was replaced. The engines are fresh water cooled, so rust was not the issue, it was wear from unfiltered oil.
It seems that 'back in the day', the need for full flow oil filtration was not considered essential even for cars. Those boat engines were marinized by Palmer from International Harvestor 392's which DID have full flow oil filtration from IH, but Palmer removed that and went with bypass only. I think they had the mistaken idea that since engines were in a boat, that no dirt is in the boat or air to get into an engine, so why is full flow filtration needed.

Lets blame the toilet paper filter for everything. All any toilet paper filter does is send a steady stream of clean oil to the oil pan until it can't hold any more sludge. Ive used toilet papers since 1964. The Motor Guard oil cleaner on my Ford 390 is over 50 years old.

 

[RalphPWood]

I would seriously avoid the tp oil filter. Last summer I bought a 64 galaxie that had a frantz tp oil filter installed since the 70s. When I tore the engine down for rebuild, which was all original and never touched it wasn't super dirty but the bearings were very worn out for the mileage and looked like they had a lot of debris go through them. The crankshaft even had a groove worn on the mains. I had oil change records for most of its life and it got 2000 to 2500 mile oil changes. Really doubt the TP filter did it any favors. I've torn apart much nastier and higher mileage fe engines that had better bearing using a spin in filter. I took that thing off immediately.

That was brilliant.The only filter that cleans oil you took off immediately. The Motor Guard toilet paper filter on my 390 is over 50 years old. Lets blame the Frantz for the owners ignorance.

 

[RalphPWood]

If that was the only filter on it, I completely agree. An engine should always have a full flow standard oil filter. My 1962 Buick had a spin on full flow oil filter. If an engine only has a bypass filter, what good is that! Unfiltered oil is circulating to the bearings etc...
If it had a full flow filter, then you can not blame the bypass filter for all that damage.
And oil from decades past was lousy compared to today's engine oil.

A bypass filter should only be an add on type filter to slowly clean oil, never the primary filter.
On my 1970 boat engines, ran into similar issue as you. Engine only had bypass filters from OEM design. Both engines needed new main bearings. And prior owner wore one out so bad entire engine was replaced. The engines are fresh water cooled, so rust was not the issue, it was wear from unfiltered oil.
It seems that 'back in the day', the need for full flow oil filtration was not considered essential even for cars. Those boat engines were marinized by Palmer from International Harvestor 392's which DID have full flow oil filtration from IH, but Palmer removed that and went with bypass only. I think they had the mistaken idea that since engines were in a boat, that no dirt is in the boat or air to get into an engine, so why is full flow filtration needed.

What did we do before full flow filters came in the 50s we used a good bypass filter and took care of it. The best ones used cotton until the toilet paper filters came. I use the Australian Jackmaster Classic a few Motor Guards a few Gulf Coasts and a flat head Ford V8 canister filter that is converted to use Scott 1000. Right now it has half a roll of VIVA Signature cloth paper towels in it.

 

[RalphPWood]

What did we do before full flow filters came in the 50s we used a good bypass filter and took care of it. The best ones used cotton until the toilet paper filters came. I use the Australian Jackmaster Classic a few Motor Guards a few Gulf Coasts and a flat head Ford V8 canister filter that is converted to use Scott 1000. Right now it has half a roll of VIVA Signature cloth paper towels in it. Full flow filters are to grab the large abrasives from the full flow of oil. Not many large abrasives in a modern engine oil.

 

[RalphPWood]

Would have to see the installation instructions, but would seem strange even back in 1967-1968 that a Frantz filter would be meant to be a full-flow filter - ie, take the place of the factory spin-on filter. Think it was always designed to be a bypass filter to be used along side the factory full-flow filter. So if the full-flow spin-on was totally removed, then the oil was probably only getting partially filtered by the Frantz bypass filter.

All a Frantz or any toilet paper filter is supposed to do is send a constant stream of clean oil to the oil pan until 100 percent of the oil is clean.The full flow filter is to grab anything large enough to damage the engine.

 

[jimmyjamesndt]

Frantz adapter

 

[ZeeOSix]

No such thing as running a Frantz as a full flow filter.

Yeah, I made a comment after that one saying no way any true bypass filter could be uses as a "full-flow" filter because they are way too flow restrictive.

 

[ZeeOSix]

All a Frantz or any toilet paper filter is supposed to do is send a constant stream of clean oil to the oil pan until 100 percent of the oil is clean.The full flow filter is to grab anything large enough to damage the engine.

Yeah, I know ... but as already said, a bypass filter should be used in conjunction with a good full-flow filter. If not, then the debris that could cause wear or damage is still going round-and-round through the oiling system until the bypass filter happens to finally catch it.

If just running a bypass filter only like done 75 years ago was so great of a system, then every car made right now would just have a bypass filter on it and no full-flow filter used in conjunction with the bypass filter. That's not happening these days - it's not done for a reason. It would cut down on the number of oil filters being manufactured and make filter change intervals way longer if only a bypass filter was used.

 

[RalphPWood]

Thats it I wouldnt recommend it but if you have a very clean engine they work fine. The 4 cylinder chevy engine on my Farmall has that. Cant find anything in the Motor Guard large enough to see so Im good. Im not engineer enough to put the Chevy engine in the farmall by itself. Took the engine out of a celebrity. Went to a salvage and said I need a rear wheel drive transmission for a front wheel drive 4 cylinder Chevy engine. The guy said do you want a 3 speed or a 4 speed. Went to a machine shop said turn these drive shafts into a 1 footer. Installed them and put Motor Guards on the engine and Impala automatic. Put a F 350 front end on it with power steering. An Allis Chalmers front end loader with a trencher hydraulic pump. The hydraulic fluid has a Gulf Coast junior. The Farmall H has a 5 speed. It will pull untill the tires lose traction. Fork lift roll bar. Cant believe the ignorance about bypass filters Its embarrassing.

 

[RalphPWood]

Yeah, I made a comment after that one saying no way any true bypass filter could be uses as a "full-flow" filter because they are way too flow restrictive.

Even the filters that use part of a roll of toilet paper and spin on in place of the full flow filters are bypass filters. A large bypass valve is always open when the engine is running. Now its converted to a bypass filter. Trasco Stilco

 

[ZeeOSix]

Even the filters that use part of a roll of toilet paper and spin on in place of the full flow filters are bypass filters. A large bypass valve is always open when the engine is running. Now its converted to a bypass filter. Trasco Stilco

Yeah, as I stated before, no super efficient bypass filter media can take full flow because it's too flow restrictive. That's why they are called "bypass filters".

 

[RalphPWood]

Frantz adapter

View attachment 273149

Frantz also had one of those that also had a return port.They had a one port sandwich and a two port sandwich.

 

[RalphPWood]

Yeah, as I stated before, no super efficient bypass filter media can take full flow because it's too flow restrictive. That's why they are called "bypass filters".

Frantz or Motor Guard or both had a Ford engineers report that said engines need both a full flow filter and a bypass filter. Of course bypass filters are more expensive. Why would they spend millions more when its cheaper to use only the full flow filter. No one cares about filters that clean oil when shopping for a cars. How many people looked at a VW beetle and asked where is the oil filter. VW saved millions by not putting filters on them. My girl friend was told since her beetle had no oil filter she should bring her beetle in for an oil change every 1500 miles. I put a Motor Guard on it and told her it needed no more oil changes. Do I know more about oil filters than VW ? No.

 

[RalphPWood]

Lets blame the toilet paper filter for everything. All any toilet paper filter does is send a steady stream of clean oil to the oil pan until it can't hold any more sludge. Ive used toilet papers since 1964. The Motor Guard oil cleaner on my Ford 390 is over 50 years old.

Many engines have no place to screw a full flow filter on. My Rambler flat head 6 was one. Just driving to work the oil was filtered many times. Why are people so ignorant they think bypass filters only filter part of the oil. I bet before 1950 a Rolls Royce only used a bypass filter.