Ford Introduces New Taurus-based Police Car

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE

I have a feeling Miami Beach and the bulk of agencies down here will buy as many CVPI's they can afford in 2010 to hold them over for awhile.


Not in this economy...

And its going to get worst the way things are going.



I meant to say they will try to load up in 2011 not 2010 but I think you are right Bill with the tight budget it will be very hard to do that...I have not seen many new patrol cars hitting the streets in the last 12 months.

As far as the pit maneuver goes it is sometimes the only way way to stop a car down here in Miami-Dade and Broward County [alot of nutjobs down here] before they kill someone.

BTW the way the cop also said last night he thinks the Police Advisory Board that was working with Ford was made up of people who sit behind their big desk and not anybody out in the field.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE


BTW the way the cop also said last night he thinks the Police Advisory Board that was working with Ford was made up of people who sit behind their big desk and not anybody out in the field.


I'm not sure the Miami officer knows what he's talking about. Ford and the MSP have been testing the new car for months, in the real world. On torture test runs at the MSP HQ, at the Ford proving grounds here and out west and with the LA County Sheriffs Dept. These aren't just lab tests or experiments, real cops have given real input. Ford worked closely with the MSP on the CVPI and they have continued this same succesful practice with the TPI.

I'll say it once again, time will tell on the new PI.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: rudolphna
Gary, just to clarify..... Are you saying ALL versions of the TPI will be maintenance/repair hogs, or just the ecoboost version?


I don't have a clue. It may be the "top this" to the CVPI and depts may end up being thankful for the evolution.

Every model evolution has its growing pains. This is a more complex piece of machinery. We can only hope that they got it right this time.

As the only person who does know what they're talking about insists, the last attempt at this kinda thing "doesn't count"

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I don't work for Ford, and the PIT isn't something required for a car to be considered for police use. A benefit? Absolutely. But being able to perform a PIT isn't some mechanical aspect of the vehicle like putting the car into reverse is. The PIT is an "aftermarket" thought, if you will,


Well, it would have been a sensible consideration ..just like the equipment caddy in the trunk.

Quote:
Exactly where does it say on here that a member must list their qualifications and get approval from you before anything they say is valid? Is it under the FAQ section? Where are your qualifications listed? Or for that matter, where is any other members' qualifications listed?


I'm beginning to hear that Twilight Zone theme music. Just what would you expect someone to use as some reason to regard your posting as valid, just your word for it?

I have a banging deal on some swamp and bridge property. I assure you I KNOW EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Don't listen to anyone else ..they don't know what they're talking about ..and you can trust me. I'm the real deal.


"You don't need to see his indentification"

"We don't need to see his identification"

"These aren't the droids you're looking for"

"These aren't the droids we're looking for"

"You can go about your business. Move along"

"Move along. Move along".

What do you think you are, some kinda of Jedi?

 

[mrsilv04]

Does anyone know if the EcoBoost version will require premium gas in police service?

For the civilian Taurus Ecoboost version, Ford "recommends" 91 octane.

Wouldn't severe police service requirements mandate the use of 91 octane?

This could be an issue as many municipalities own their own refueling stations, and I would assume that many do not have the ability to store or pump premium without the installation of new tanks and pumps.

Plus, premium is anywhere from 30-45 cents a gallon higher than regular. That's yet another added cost to already tight municipal budgets.

 

[ZiTS]

That's a very valid concern. Hopefully, Ford has taken this under consideration. They might have had to cut back on the power output of the EcoBoost so that it will run on regular grade fuel.

I can see this as a way of ensuring longevity in the engine. They are still saying, though, that it will produce at least 365 HP. If that's on regular octane, that sounds pretty good! And you're right - departments that have their own pumps are going to be using regular fuel solely. Even departments that utilize commercial gas stations will often times require that the officers fill up ONLY with regular.

 

[Deltona_Dave]

We have a fleet of 200 CVPI's and our deputies are not looking forward to losing them. Acceleration and top speed are not great on the CVPI, but I have seen many deputies walk away from bad crashes with little or no injury, due to body on frame and mass of those vehicles. The CVPI has the mass to effect a good PIT, RWD is great for those U-turns, etc. There are so many aftermarket parts for CVPI's that are going to have to be re-done (Consoles, Prisoner Partitions, light bars, etc).

We don't need high speed for pursuits, we have 3 helicopters for that.

It will cost us a lot for training (EVOC and PIT) for any FWD vehicle.

I think Ford should keep the old Panther platform for several more years, until the newer vehicles are "proven".
I wonder how the V-6's and Turbos will hold up with the idling, turning a 210 amp alternator, and doing it in Florida heat and humidity during the Summer. The 4.6 has been doing it without many problems for 18 years now. As long as it gets good motor oil and OCI's every 3-5K, they just keep purring for over 100K miles without fault. The only things we replace are batteries, tires, and brakes on the CVPI. everything else is pretty reliable.

Dave

 

[Gary Allan]

Dave, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[GMGuy]

Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE

BTW the way the cop also said last night he thinks the Police Advisory Board that was working with Ford was made up of people who sit behind their big desk and not anybody out in the field.


The police advisory board;
https://www.fleet.ford.com/Contacts/police_advisory_panel/Police_Advisory_Panel.asp

---
randomn thoughts;

As for the anti-taurus sentiment, probably largely department dependant and what they tend do to with equipment.
I know our locals, including the Chief prefer rear wheel drive.
Other departments may be reluctant on the car due to the inability to move equipment directly into the taurus (cages, trunk racks) apparently the center console is a direct swap for the cv though). A department that does its own modifications probably doesn't care so much, just some added workload for their outfitters for the first few years. (your police mechanic is paid anyway wether he's changing oil or if he's cutting and welding a cage to fit)
Places that have to farm out the outfitting likely don't want the added expense of new equipment, especially or having to pay somebody shop rates for modifying equipment. We'll see.

v6/v8/turbos, probably not an issue. Most deparments probably have a zero-pursuit policy anyway, so v6's will dominate, especially if they end up saving gas money over the year. Turbo's of course for pursuit departments that want some get up and go, lack of engine options for the cv have been a long standing complaint.

As for the charger being more difficult to see out of, that could well be a good advantage for us civvies who bend a road rule on occasion. =-)

Alex.

 

[Tahoe4Life]

Originally Posted By: Deltona_Dave
We have a fleet of 200 CVPI's and our deputies are not looking forward to losing them. Acceleration and top speed are not great on the CVPI, but I have seen many deputies walk away from bad crashes with little or no injury, due to body on frame and mass of those vehicles. The CVPI has the mass to effect a good PIT, RWD is great for those U-turns, etc. There are so many aftermarket parts for CVPI's that are going to have to be re-done (Consoles, Prisoner Partitions, light bars, etc).

We don't need high speed for pursuits, we have 3 helicopters for that.

It will cost us a lot for training (EVOC and PIT) for any FWD vehicle.

I think Ford should keep the old Panther platform for several more years, until the newer vehicles are "proven".
I wonder how the V-6's and Turbos will hold up with the idling, turning a 210 amp alternator, and doing it in Florida heat and humidity during the Summer. The 4.6 has been doing it without many problems for 18 years now. As long as it gets good motor oil and OCI's every 3-5K, they just keep purring for over 100K miles without fault. The only things we replace are batteries, tires, and brakes on the CVPI. everything else is pretty reliable.

Dave


+1

The K-9 cars idle for hours the entire 8-12 hour shift. The must be kept running.

 

[mrsilv04]

Originally Posted By: Deltona_Dave
The only things we replace are batteries, tires, and brakes on the CVPI. everything else is pretty reliable.



Here's the repair record for the last 2005 CV that was recently removed from service with 105k. I have removed items such as tires, bulbs, brakes, and batteries from the list, as well as repairs to aftermarket equipment installed on the unit.

In Jan 2010, at 103,549 miles, the blower motor was replaced.
In Nov 2009, at 101,232 miles, the alternator, right rear axle, bearing and seals were replaced.
In Aug 2009, at 97,042 miles, the brake light switch & wiring pigtail were replaced.
In late June, at 92,769 miles, the driver’s master window switch was replaced.
In late June 2009, at 92,097 miles, both lower ball joints and the front shocks were replaced.
In early June 2009, at 92,089 miles, the pinion seal was replaced.
In Aug 2008, at 75,719 miles, the shift cable was replaced.
In Aug 2008, at 75,608 miles, the intake manifold, gasket, and thermostat were replaced.
In July 2008, at 72,660 miles, the belt tensioner was replaced.
In May 2008, at 70,863 miles, the right rear axle, seal and bearings were replaced.
In May 2008, at 69,069 miles, the spark plugs, spark plug boots were replaced.
In Feb 2008, at 64,520 miles, the passenger side air bag warning light was replaced.
In Dec 2007, at 60,015 miles, the throttle body, mass air flow sensor, and radiator cooling fan were replaced.
In Dec 2007, at 59,220 miles, the alternator and serpentine belt were replaced.
In Sep 2007, at 54,574 miles, the driver’s side window switch was replaced.
In Aug 2007, at 53,656 miles, the left rear emergency brake cable was hooked up due to it coming unhooked.
In Aug 2007, at 52,910 miles, the rear end, rear parking brake shoes were replaced.
In Apr 2007, at 45,049 miles, the brake line and the ABS jewel light were replaced.
In Mar 2007, at 42,498 miles, the rear brake calipers flushed.
In Feb 2007, at 41,434 miles, the spark plugs were replaced.
In Aug 2006, at 29,179 miles, the brake switch was replaced.

I don't know what it means. Either the use of these cars in Illinois is a lot harder on them, or the city mechanics are "over maintaining" our fleet.

Either way, I suspect that the Panther fans will have something to say about it.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Deltona_Dave
We have a fleet of 200 CVPI's and our deputies are not looking forward to losing them. Acceleration and top speed are not great on the CVPI, but I have seen many deputies walk away from bad crashes with little or no injury, due to body on frame and mass of those vehicles. The CVPI has the mass to effect a good PIT, RWD is great for those U-turns, etc. There are so many aftermarket parts for CVPI's that are going to have to be re-done (Consoles, Prisoner Partitions, light bars, etc).

We don't need high speed for pursuits, we have 3 helicopters for that.

It will cost us a lot for training (EVOC and PIT) for any FWD vehicle.

I think Ford should keep the old Panther platform for several more years, until the newer vehicles are "proven".
I wonder how the V-6's and Turbos will hold up with the idling, turning a 210 amp alternator, and doing it in Florida heat and humidity during the Summer. The 4.6 has been doing it without many problems for 18 years now. As long as it gets good motor oil and OCI's every 3-5K, they just keep purring for over 100K miles without fault. The only things we replace are batteries, tires, and brakes on the CVPI. everything else is pretty reliable.

Dave


Do the light bars, partitions and consoles for a CVPI fit a new Caprice or the Dodge? Fitment issues are a non issue because every department that runs CVPI now, will have to switch to something when the CV is longer available.

I agree on the mass, the Body on Frame, the RWD points you make. I'm still curious to see if the unibody in a street Taurus is the same weight as the uni body in the TPI. A heavy uni body can be a very stout safe vehicle, mercedes has show this over and over.

But the CV cannot continue to be built by Ford at a profit. The market for the retail version is almost non existant. And despite claims to the contrary, you cant just move the plant and tooling and build them elsewhere. The engines have to be built somewhere, the body panels stamped somewhere, every little part has to get sourced and takes up time and capacity from other cars that do sell, and at a profit....The market has spoken and the CV/GM/TC is dead. I don't like it either but it is what it is.

 

[Oldswagon]

My biggest concern for the TPI is not the engine, although the turbo versions are up in the air. The NA 3.5L will be fine in police use, I think almost any modern engine would be fine. My area of biggest concern in the suspension, brakes and the transmission. In my opinion these components take a far greater beating than the engine does in police use.

Our local dept switched to Impala's exlusively around 2001-2002. The quickly learned that the fuel savings were outweighted by the tranny failures, suspension repairs and short brake life. In the end, they have switched back and stayed with the CVPI.

There has yet to be a FWD car that has had a transaxle tough enough to survive police use. None have had good brakes, or tough suspensions. So far we've seen the Chev Celebrity, the 1st and 2nd Gen Taurus, the FWD Impala and and the 2nd Gen Interpids. None have made ANY dent in the police car market, and all have been highly hyped before release.

In fact the early 90's Taurus Interceptors actually out performed the old LTD Crown Vic in every category and of course got much better fuel economy. They were terribly unreliable and quickly became unpopular.

I was hoping Ford would come out with a RWD based sedan. Too bad, if I were a fleet operator, I'd be using CVPI's until 2011, then going to Caprice PPVs.

 

[Cutehumor]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
The new Chevy Caprice police package is rear wheel drive based on the Camaro platform. It will have a 6.0 V8, 355 HP, 0-60 times under 5 seconds. I sure hope that they price it right so that agencies can afford it and put the Ford out to pasture...

of course the police agencies will buy this vehicle instead of Ford, it's made by GOVERNMENT MOTORS

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
But the CV cannot continue to be built by Ford at a profit.


Not as they're doing it now. They could have easily combined the PI with the taxi production. Not a big adaptation, imo. Same engine, same trans, same fail safe cooling system.. 6" longer wheel base and mostly the same parts. I'm sure the Canadian production would have managed it all ..at a profit.

Quote:
The engines have to be built somewhere


Is the 4.6 disappearing? No F/E installations (I haven't been keeping up). The successor, if there is one, can't fit in the same confines? Doesn't deliver the same performance and/or efficiency?

Quote:
the body panels stamped somewhere,



And the current tooling/templates/dies will be sold off, probably brokered off to aftermarket concerns.

There's got to be a big deal with all OEM parts when the OEM contract expires and the aftermarket contract begins. There are patents on a bunch of that stuff and more of our evolutions are to make some ROI of a specific level ..that may or may not mean "their terms of profit worthy".

In a specific police/taxi unit production, nothing need change. Nothing except emissions compliance. That's it. No new styling, no new transmissions ..no new suspension ..

NADA. Hence, no engineering. No "new" patents ..no "new" parts contracts ..etc..etc.

What they're doing is creating a newer cash cow.

Quote:
The market has spoken and the CV/GM/TC is dead.


This much I can't argue with. It has nothing to do with the CVPI being a near ideal police unit ..and taxi.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Gary,

With all due respect it just isn't doable. You haven't even begun to account for the scheduling and sourcing nightmares it would create. Do you suppose it would be profitable for Ford to keep a plant and full staff available to build a car in such small numbers? They could build an entire years worth of demand in under a couple of months, what would you have that plant and it's employees do the rest of the year? You havent accounted for retooling costs at all, you act and assume that dies and tools dont/arent worn at all. Do you have some inside information to share with us? Cars in production for years and years require retooling even if they never changed the car itself.


Give up on this simplistic idea that the CV can continue on as a niche product....never going to happen. Boiled down, you are proposing that Ford would rather build a "new cash cow" rather than build a ageing car that is currently profitable. Your wrong on both counts.

I agree, the platform will be missed when it's gone. I ve said all along it makes a better platform.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yes, tooling does wear and needs refitting. It doesn't, however, need to be recreated. No "architect" like proprietary "creation" ..just cut and copy. No R&D ..no design staff, no power train engineers ..just production people.

That is, 50% (not a real number) of the weight is just not there.

Again, I said cab production too. That plant is getting idled as well ...or rather..isn't making the LWB CV.

..and suppose that's all the traffic that there is? Suppose they get 90% of all the taxi and cop car traffic that the market holds and INDEED it means 6 months on and 6 months off.

How about the rest of your life off and the rest of eternity a vacant lot?? How does that work out in comparison?



..but your points are taken and have never been ignored. We have certain business models that are in place to "pay bills" ..they're also there to shake you down.

The auto industry is a jobs program and has been one for a very long time. If we get passed any delusions to the contrary, then we can figure out what keeps the most people sensibly employed. Eternal evolutions requiring more expensive parts that, eventually, no one will be able to afford is not furthering that goal.

..but that is somewhat

 

[LS2JSTS]

Your whole argument is based on the assumption they wont sell Taurus' in proportionate numbers. It also ignores the obvious fact that almost all of the development costs are already there in the Taurus, you're talking like the TPI is a clean sheet design.

And what about keeping the ageing CV/GM alive in our Government run economy where corporate fuel averages are getting tighter and tighter. How far do you think the build it like they use to forever plan will get that now thirty year old CV/GM?

Look, I love huge, big RWD cars. I grew up driving them. I have two in my garage and I plan to get at least one more before they are gone. But, they are gone....unless you got a new idea. Yes, it's all on you.....lol....tick, tock....j/k

...just wanted to add one thing. Dont know if you'll be able to find it online to verify, but I can assure you. The cost to maintain and keep even a completely vacant factory are enormous. Add in fully functional tooling and the like and you can add another huge property tax liability. Vacant plants, excess capacity is a knife at your throat, ask GM, they'l tell you all about it. It's not as simple as saying well, at least we employed half as many for half a year. Especially if that expense of doing so against better economic sense, COSTS jobs somewhere else at a more steady rate. The cost of lost opportunity with a twist.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Your whole argument is based on the assumption they wont sell Taurus' in proportionate numbers.


Not at all. If I cut the hp in all vehicles in half and paint them hot pink ...well, you're going to be driving a slow pink car.

That is, regardless of what police demand, they're stuck with what the market offers in compromise.

They may buy the new Taurus like it's the best thing since sliced bread ..even if they think that they're garbage.


The CVPI was a shoe in in just about ever dept I know. Very few of the alternatives were chosen over it. Now that we've moved that out of the way, the playing field is leveled. Now Ford doesn't need to sell to police.

No one can tell me with all that weight off of the back of producing that unit that it would not be competitively ..or even price to a good advantage to the alleged advanced units with all the development baggage that other vehicles MUST carry.

Quote:
in our Government run economy where corporate fuel averages are getting tighter and tighter.


CAFE has nothing to do with fuel economy. It's a mandate to produce more units, buy more steel, tires, engines.


..but as everyone including myself has said, it's a done deal.

The Police Interceptor is dead. Long live the Police Interceptor.

 

[oilboy123]

Time will tell how it does...... The video does lend credence to Ford being serious about the Taurus for police use. I would recommend a watch, it is interesting.

They are saying the rims can run over curbs at 40MPH, among many other things. Don't know how the rest of the car will hold up. Maybe Ford should work with the police departments on maintenance issues, that would be a help to all in the long run.

It is probably time for a change even though the CVPI is proven. All the cars are going high tech and having the stability control side air bags and the ability to take 75 mph rear end collisions will go a long way for safety. I guess that some cops might get themselves in trouble with the power being so abundant.