Ethics of Eating Meat

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Oh, the hunting argument came up.

Yeah, that [stuff] never gets old.

But do you really want to go [making angry] the people who have firearms?

For my stand on the matter I cite a passage from fellow Texan Ron White:
"I'm probably not a typical Texan in that I don't hunt. I fish, but I don't hunt. And it has nothing to do with how I think it might somehow be more holy to eat meat that's been bludgeoned to death by someone else, that's not it. It's really early in the morning, it's really cold outside, and... I don't wanna' go."
Thanks Ron!
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
I friend of mine went on an elephant hunt last year.


Out of curiosity, greenaccord02, what kind of firearm did he use to take the elephant? My only knowledge of hunting game *that* big is from photographs from the 20's when European aristocracy would safari with these insanely-shaped 1/2 rifle, 1/2 bugle-looking monstrosities. Something tells me he didn't bring his .22...
 
He hunted and killed it with a double barrel .470 Nitro Express. It looks like a .410 double barrel shotgun, but costs a LOT more.
S_3201bb148f.jpg

The term is "double rifle" I think.
More info on the round:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.470_Nitro_Express
 
And the ones that the guides use "just in case" are lethal at both ends.

Google .577 Tyranosaur.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
"Thou Shall Not Kill"


If you read it in the original language, it translates to Thou Shall Not Murder. Thou Shall Not Kill is a poor translation of the original text.

The verb that appears in the Torah’s prohibition is ”ratsah” which means “murder.” This word refers only to criminal acts of killing.

So an accurate translation of the 6th commandment is thou shalt not murder.
 
The above does not constitute promotion of religion, but merely education on a comment and the etymology of it's source.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
The above does not constitute promotion of religion, but merely education on a comment and the etymology of it's source.



I understand, but let's please be careful here. We realize it's hard to separate the topic of killing and religion, but it can be done.

Your statements will stand as is, but further clarification (or poking the hornet's nest from others) will be viewed with great scrutiny, and little tolerance, with regard to the site rules.
 
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Prion diseases in animals and meat:

"http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/5184.asp
Fort Campbell Soldier Dying From Mad Cow Disease May 2004
And doctors say there is no cure.



Sgt. Alford returned home from Iraq with a disease that has ravaged his brain. His parents, Gail and John Alford live in Karnack, TX. They are taking care of him now.



The family keeps photo albums that have captured the favorable images of his high school athletic years and the Fort Campbell Green Beret.

He was one of the army’s youngest soldiers. But everything changed after a secret mission three years ago in Oman when villagers honored James with a banquet that included a sheep’s brain infected with disease. "
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Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) a fatal prion disease, in deer, elk and moose is epidemic in the US and Canada. It has been found in both muscle and fat of infected animal.
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The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) took note of prion diseases which killed men who had eaten venison and wild game, but concluded there was no connection between the deer/game meat and the fatal human neurodegenerative diseases.
"Risk for Transmission to Humans Epidemiologic Studies"
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol10no6/03-1082.htm
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The CDC is also unconcerned about clusters of human prion disease Creutzfeldt Jakob in the US: http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/morgan11304.cfm
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Many people believe Bovine Spongiform Encephaloathy (BSE - Mad Cow Disease) has been circulating and amplifying in the US food supply for decades.

Transmissible Mink Encephalopathy, a fatal prion disease, struck in the US in the 1960s.
The first documentation of mad cow (BSE)/prion disease in US cattle was In Wisconsin 1985, when Dr. Richard Marsh proved that feeding farmed mink downer cows caused the fatal transmissible mink encephalopathy (TME). TME has been experimentally transmitted to ferrets. http://www.rense.com/general34/prions.htm

Scrapie found in 5 Goats in Ottawa County, Michigan
http://www.michigan.gov/mda/0,1607,7-125-1572_3628-186758--,00.html

Scrapie in sheep in the US: (Scrapie prion disease is fatal only to animals - not to humans.)
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_health/content/printable_version/06_AHReport_508.pdf

page 52 OF 192 "Case and Infected Flock Summary—In FY 2006, 116 newly identified infected flocks were reported,
and 350 scrapie cases were confirmed and reportedby the National Veterinary Services Laboratories
(NVSL) (tables 8 and 9). A scrapie case is defined as an animal for which a diagnosis of scrapie has
been made by the NVSL using a USDA-approved test (typically immunohistochemistry on the obex or
a peripheral lymph node). "


In the late 1990s, there was an outbreak in Kentucky of human prion disease (11 cases of fatal Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease.) All of the victims enjoyed eating squirrel brains.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9500E0D91231F93AA1575BC0A961958260

Domestic cats have died from Feline spongiform encephalopahy (FSE). Many zoo cats (cheetahs, pumas, lions, tigers ) have died from prion diseases after being fed downer cattle. Zoological ruminants have suffered transmissible spongiform encephalopathy\ies (TSE).
http://www.mad-cow.org/zoo_cites_annotated.html


Rendered MBM (meat and bone meal) from 1.9 million downer cows untested for BSE, plus road kill including dead deer untested for Chromic wasting Disease (CWD), euthanized pets, farm and wildlife deadstock, and slaugherhouse wastes and offal are used for dog and cat food, and feeds for pigs, chickens, fish, and many other animals. Rendering does NOT inactivate prions.

http://www.sludgevictims.com/prions/downers.html

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http://www.humanitarian.net/law/biodefense/bse_12004.html
"Hound ataxia had reportedly been occurring since the 1930's, and a known risk factor for its development was the feeding to hounds of downer cows, and particularly bovine offal. Circumstantial evidence suggests that bovine offal may also be causal in FSE (Feline Spongiform Encephalopathy) , and TME (transmissible mink encephalopathy) in mink. Despite the inconclusive nature of the neuropathology, it was clearly evident that this putative canine spongiform encephalopathy merited further investigation. '

A study from the University of California has found that over 60 percent of dogs between 11 and 16 years old had one or more signs of cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS). This syndrome is similar to Alzheimer’s in humans in that in involves disorientation, confusion, memory loss and behavioral changes
http://www.care2.com/greenliving/do-dogs-get-alzheimers.html
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10684682?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg

The neuropathology of experimental bovine spongiform encephalopathy in the pig.
Conclusion. (Excerpt)

" The presence of neurological signs in pigs inoculated with BSE without
detectable PrPd raises the possibility that the BSE agent may produce a
prion disease in pigs that remains undetected by the current postmortem
tests." (note: pigs are butchered at an early age before they have a chance to exhibit brain disease.)

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles/000004-New-Neurological-Disease-Found-In-Pig-Workers.shtml
New Neurological Disease Found in Pig Workers July 2008
by Heidi Stevenson
We now have a new horrible disease brought by the same insane meat-raising industry that brought Mad Cow Disease and Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease, both implicated from the brains of sheep and cattle. It's known by two terms, Progressive Inflammatory Neuropathy and Immune Polyradiculoneuropathy (IPR). Neither is really a name, but more of a description. They indicate that the disease involves inflammation of the spinal cord, has multiple neurological symptoms, gets worse, and affects the immune system.
All of the victims are employees in pork slaughtering plants. They harvest pig brains by blowing them out of the heads with compressed-air guns. Yes, harvest is the term used. It's believed that aerosolized pig brains, which are breathed in by the workers, are the cause.

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Many scientists believe Alzheimer's (and Parkinson's) Diseases are transmissible prion/protein diseases:

http://www.sludgevictims.com/pathogens/ALZHEIMERS_is_a_prion_disease.pdf (AD and PD = over 6.3 million US victims --

and rates for early-onset Alzheimer's (under age 65) are also soaring . . . . http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/08/eveningnews/main3919747.shtml

"Could Alzheimer's be infectious? " http://neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/2006/11/24/could-alzheimers-be-infectious/

SEE reply posted by:
Dr. Murray Waldman, coroner for the city of Toronto, Canada:
"In answer to the question how would Alzheimer’s (AD) be transmitted, I have written a book “Dying For A Hamburger” that hypothesizes that AD is spread by how we in North America and Europe feed and process meat, mainly beef.
If you study the rates of AD and its geographical distribution, you will find that rates start to soar when a country becomes meat eating (i.e. Japan and Korea in the 1960s) and rises even faster when it adopts a fast food culture (the US and Western Europe in the 50s and 60s) and remains low in vegetarian countries (India) and those without a processed meat industry or fast foods (equatorial Africa)…Murray "



"Waldman argues that because processed meat and hamburger from many cows can end up in a single package, a single prion-infected cow among millions of slaughtered cows can infect multiple humans.

A century ago, that couldn't happen because meat from a single animal was kept separate from the meat of other animals. Cows also weren't fed protein additives made from the remains of other cows, so prion diseases weren't transmitted from one cow to another. © The Calgary Herald 2004'

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See VIDEO Interview –Mad Cow and Misdiagnosed Alzheimer’s Disease

http://www.healthydepartment.com/alzheim...sease-4541.html

Interview with Dr. Colm Kelleher author of “Brain Trust:The Hidden Connection Between Mad Cow and Misdiagnosed Alzheimer’s Disease” recorded November 16, 2004. video about 1 hour long – well worth the time

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"Prion diseases may also be caused by modern meat packing practices where by "a typical burger patty is packed with the meat and fat of 50 to 100 cattle from multiple states and two to four countries. "

"Eat two hanburgers a week — as the average American does — and in a year's time the consumer samples a stampede: 5,200 to 10,400 cattle."

http://www.think-aboutit.com/health/CattleDrive.htm
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...circulating and amplifying . . .

Helane Shields, Alton, NH [email protected] Infectious human and animal prions in the sewage sludge "biosolids" being spread on ballfields, parks and playgrounds, home lawns, flower and vegetable gardens, and on grazing lands, hay fields and dairy pastures: http://www.sludgevictims.com/pathogens/prion.html
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
And the ones that the guides use "just in case" are lethal at both ends.

Google .577 Tyranosaur.


That weapon strikes me as stupid (I may get criticized for this).

The .50 BMG when fired from a TAC-50, M82A1, M99...etc is a "better" round in all areas. It is faster, more accurate, and has more energy. Yes, I know the guns are a lot larger too.

I know they are designed for two different purposes however. But it just surprises me they didn't use a variation of the already well-rounded and very popular .50BMG cartridge and just "tweak" the gun for the application.

I would think than an M82A1 would be a far more "useful" rifle than the "Tyrannosaur".
 
The tyranosaur was supposed to be a light handling repeater that the guide could use in a last ditch emergency after the hunter with his double rifle misplaced a shot or two.
 
...and spinach gives you e.coli, a strictly vegan diet is responsible for dietary deficiencies of numerous types as well as anemia and osteoporosis, and according to Joe Jackson (the talented one...not Michael and Janet's father) Everything Gives You Cancer.

Strict Vegan atheletes are usually calorically deprived.
 
The owner of Excalibur crossbows took an elephant with one of his bows... So its not all about energy, good shot placement is the way to hunt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJokpxvMmvA

I've taken a deer with my crossbow and it died within 2 minutes, but it's a bit distressing that it takes that long, but its the only legal way to hunt from Oct. to the end of Dec.

Also if it was me getting killed, I'd rather be the deer and have a good life of freedom and take a couple minutes to die, than be the industrial farmed animal living in [censored] and die instantly...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The tyranosaur was supposed to be a light handling repeater that the guide could use in a last ditch emergency after the hunter with his double rifle misplaced a shot or two.


After seeing that youtube video, I'd love to see somebody try to repeat-fire that gun, LOL
grin.gif


There's a reason the big .50BMG guns have HUGE muzzle brake's on them.

BTW, I guess Barrett has come out with a smaller bullpup style version of their .50:

barrett_xm500.jpg


The XM500.
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
I can't speak to what happens with lions, but here's the deal on elephants:

I friend of mine went on an elephant hunt last year. It cost $50,000 just for the permit, all of which benefits fighting poachers, helping wildlife management efforts, and giving financial aid to the tribe on whose land the elephant was taken. He got to keep the a trophy (consisting of the tusks and skull, and skin on the head) but the rest of the Animal was - and by law had to be - used and preserved by the tribe in a traditional manner. It's no different from what's been happening in Africa for thousands of years, except that now it generates revenue and the animal cannot be wasted, under penalty of law.


Sorry to say but how do you know paying 50k is really going to help increase elephant population? this is as lame as buying fair trade coffee when the middle man is making the bucks and the coffee farmer gets the same old beat down price.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I've taken a deer with my crossbow and it died within 2 minutes, but it's a bit distressing that it takes that long, but its the only legal way to hunt from Oct. to the end of Dec.


But remember that a good shot, travelling through organs and severing arteries and such ought not to bring the animal much discomfort; save for the superficial flesh wounds. I'm sure it beats the heck out of one day *not* being able to outrun a pack of coyotes who don't bother to wait until you're dead to begin feasting.
 
In the last 30 years I've been back and forth on meat / meatless diets and many times have gone back to eating meat, thinking I needed it as a protein source to build muscle properly. I always seemed to feel better on a plant based diet, but was afraid to stay on it long term.

The first of this year I went back to a plant based diet after eating animal proteins for a good 8 years, and this time I feel I know what I need to know in order to stay on it and thrive as well. Organic fruit and vegetables and organic herbs can nourish us better than any meat diet, IMO. Now that I've found out how, I'm glad I no longer have to rely on animal slaughter in order to maintain my body. I'm glad for the animals as well as myself and the planet for the small way that I'm helping.
I'd never eat meat unless I thought I had to. The flavor factor was never a reason why I ate or would eat meat. The taste of plant based foods satisfy me just fine.
 
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