"Soilent Green"? I remember that movie...We may actually be approaching that age of barbarism unknowingly! The Shadow Government is doing what they do best: Hoodwink us.
Ethics of Eating Meat
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Wife keeps a chicken pen. At a nice number now, four chickens. 3-4 eggs a day in summer.
When they stop laying from age I can't tell who to "retire." So I take a wild guess and chop her head off. If we keep getting the same number of eggs, I was right. I'm a man so of course not often right.
I don't eat the birds I "off" as layers are bred for laying not tasty meat, and you can buy a whole chicken for a few bucks. However getting blood on my hands makes me less of a hypocrite, IMO, than someone who just buys factory farm meat. This makes me respect hunters, too, especially the bad [censored] ones who use primitive tools (black powder, bow & arrow) and no ATVs.
Depending on the breed you can look at their feet/legs, chickens that are laying alot will have much lighter yellow feet than those who are not laying. Try the one with the yellowist feet next time.
As for the ethics of eating meat? IMO factory farms are unethical, with the terrible conditions for the animials, terrible working conditions for the people, the antibiotics used in the feed, the concentration of manure which makes it a pollution problem instead of a valuable resource. The whole thing runs on cheap oil and chemical fertillizer making cheap corn... And it reduces the number of people making a living wage down to a few per million pounds of meat produced...
Also after you eat meat raised ethically, factory farm "meat" is so unsatisfying with no flavour, mushy texture, washed out colour, and reduced nutritional value, and its potentially bad for you with antibiotics and growth hormones...
Check out polyface farms http://www.polyfacefarms.com for meat raised ethically and sustainabley, you can go tour their farms and see how they do it. (try going for a tour of a factory farm!) We raise our layers, meat birds, pigs, and our goats in a similar way, and butcher them ourselves on the farm so they don't get stressed out travelling to a slaughter house. We also are preserving genetic diversity which is a good thing as well.
Wife keeps a chicken pen. At a nice number now, four chickens. 3-4 eggs a day in summer.
When they stop laying from age I can't tell who to "retire." So I take a wild guess and chop her head off. If we keep getting the same number of eggs, I was right. I'm a man so of course not often right.
I don't eat the birds I "off" as layers are bred for laying not tasty meat, and you can buy a whole chicken for a few bucks. However getting blood on my hands makes me less of a hypocrite, IMO, than someone who just buys factory farm meat. This makes me respect hunters, too, especially the bad [censored] ones who use primitive tools (black powder, bow & arrow) and no ATVs.
Depending on the breed you can look at their feet/legs, chickens that are laying alot will have much lighter yellow feet than those who are not laying. Try the one with the yellowist feet next time.
As for the ethics of eating meat? IMO factory farms are unethical, with the terrible conditions for the animials, terrible working conditions for the people, the antibiotics used in the feed, the concentration of manure which makes it a pollution problem instead of a valuable resource. The whole thing runs on cheap oil and chemical fertillizer making cheap corn... And it reduces the number of people making a living wage down to a few per million pounds of meat produced...
Also after you eat meat raised ethically, factory farm "meat" is so unsatisfying with no flavour, mushy texture, washed out colour, and reduced nutritional value, and its potentially bad for you with antibiotics and growth hormones...
Check out polyface farms http://www.polyfacefarms.com for meat raised ethically and sustainabley, you can go tour their farms and see how they do it. (try going for a tour of a factory farm!) We raise our layers, meat birds, pigs, and our goats in a similar way, and butcher them ourselves on the farm so they don't get stressed out travelling to a slaughter house. We also are preserving genetic diversity which is a good thing as well.
Eating meat is super-gross.
Cats and dogs, and horses are quite intelligent. They are our friends and companions.
But don't get me wrong, I love meat. Ribs, hamburgers, pork chops, chicken sandwiches. I also eat lots of fruit and vegetables, but I don't think I could ever give up meat completely.
Honestly, I try not to think about it too much. We are humans, we are top of the food chain for a reason.
But don't get me wrong, I love meat. Ribs, hamburgers, pork chops, chicken sandwiches. I also eat lots of fruit and vegetables, but I don't think I could ever give up meat completely.
Honestly, I try not to think about it too much. We are humans, we are top of the food chain for a reason.
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think certain animals like fish, poultry, cattle and pigs are lower on the food chain. Most of those animals are prey. Animals like dogs and cats are more intelligent and are predators. So I see it as being the level on the food chain and dogs and cats and other intelligent animals or predators are a different matter.
If you eat animals based on their perceived low intelligence, then why do you list pigs? Pigs are on par with dogs in terms of intelligence. Pigs are also not exactly a bottom feeder in the food chain. Being omnivores with predatory instincts, they should not end up on your dinner table, according to you.
I think certain animals like fish, poultry, cattle and pigs are lower on the food chain. Most of those animals are prey. Animals like dogs and cats are more intelligent and are predators. So I see it as being the level on the food chain and dogs and cats and other intelligent animals or predators are a different matter.
If you eat animals based on their perceived low intelligence, then why do you list pigs? Pigs are on par with dogs in terms of intelligence. Pigs are also not exactly a bottom feeder in the food chain. Being omnivores with predatory instincts, they should not end up on your dinner table, according to you.
The way I see it....a long time ago, man hunted food to survive and they found that meat taste better than a tree leaf, especially when cooked.
Every thing in moderation.....meat included.
We do enjoy a all vegetable meal every so often....beans, peas, corn etc....but I have to have meat and taters from time to time!
Every thing in moderation.....meat included.
We do enjoy a all vegetable meal every so often....beans, peas, corn etc....but I have to have meat and taters from time to time!
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Volvo_ST1
Raising animals in huge numbers for human consumption is a questionable practice since it requires resources that could be more efficiently used to feed people.
I do eat meat, but rather as a condiment than as a main dish. There are of course those people who eat mostly meat. They usually die prematurely,
In a similar fashion, when land is used for growing plants that can be used for bio-fuel production, it may well be a misguided endeavor,
What animals are acceptable to eat? That depends on your culture and where you are.
I wouldn't chow down a pork sandwich on an Emirates flight.
Prettty much agree.
As far as feeding more people by not raising so many animals...true enough. But unfortunately feeding more people makes more people. Cold reality.
It's not cold reality, but rather a skewed view of what's really going on.
Are you then claiming that the low birthrate of some of the most overfed people on the planet, Americans, is due to food shortage? No, it's because more than 1.5 statistical children per couple, or whatever the figure is right now, is cramping the modern lifestyle. If you live in surplus, you can easily cut down on your expenses by not having children.
In contrast to that, in Third World countries the poor want as many kids as they can because of a high mortality rate in infants and children, and because children are seen as an insurance in old age.
By ensuring a scarce food supply, developed nations will end up with superannuated populations that run a serious risk of economical and societal collapse, while undeveloped countries already have evergrowing young but starving populations that are stuck in a vicious cycle. Observe history in the making at the moment.
Originally Posted By: Volvo_ST1
Raising animals in huge numbers for human consumption is a questionable practice since it requires resources that could be more efficiently used to feed people.
I do eat meat, but rather as a condiment than as a main dish. There are of course those people who eat mostly meat. They usually die prematurely,
In a similar fashion, when land is used for growing plants that can be used for bio-fuel production, it may well be a misguided endeavor,
What animals are acceptable to eat? That depends on your culture and where you are.
I wouldn't chow down a pork sandwich on an Emirates flight.
Prettty much agree.
As far as feeding more people by not raising so many animals...true enough. But unfortunately feeding more people makes more people. Cold reality.
It's not cold reality, but rather a skewed view of what's really going on.
Are you then claiming that the low birthrate of some of the most overfed people on the planet, Americans, is due to food shortage? No, it's because more than 1.5 statistical children per couple, or whatever the figure is right now, is cramping the modern lifestyle. If you live in surplus, you can easily cut down on your expenses by not having children.
In contrast to that, in Third World countries the poor want as many kids as they can because of a high mortality rate in infants and children, and because children are seen as an insurance in old age.
By ensuring a scarce food supply, developed nations will end up with superannuated populations that run a serious risk of economical and societal collapse, while undeveloped countries already have evergrowing young but starving populations that are stuck in a vicious cycle. Observe history in the making at the moment.
I see nothing wrong with eating meat as long as the animal is raised and slaughtered in a humane manner. I personally though would not eat the meat of certain animals, especially members of the order Carnivora, or omnivorous mammals, or purely carnivorous birds. I think the Old Testament had some good guides on the subject, but this is not a religious discussion.
Humans and their closest relatives emerged well over two million years ago. I think the best diet is one with a wide selection of meat and vegetable foods, as that is what we evolved to eat. If you think about it, most hominins that were very specialized as to the foods they ate are not around any more.
Eating too much meat is bad for you as it delivers concentrated energy in the form of fatty acids. We just are not designed to eat that much of it, but some, yes.
Humans and their closest relatives emerged well over two million years ago. I think the best diet is one with a wide selection of meat and vegetable foods, as that is what we evolved to eat. If you think about it, most hominins that were very specialized as to the foods they ate are not around any more.
Eating too much meat is bad for you as it delivers concentrated energy in the form of fatty acids. We just are not designed to eat that much of it, but some, yes.
I don't think there's an ethical problem eating meat. Then again I also don't have an ethical problem murdering cats, dogs, or unborn human.
What I think is the border line is whether this is something that would threaten the safety of another human being, and whether pushing such act would prevent future threats to other human being.
Killing someone's pet is a crime, killing a pit bull that threaten your kids is not.
Killing a farm animal for meat in a less painful way (electric shock first) is not a crime, killing a human that threaten another human's life is also not a crime, killing a human to rob his/her belonging is.
Make sense? It is not able whether it is a human or pet or wild animal, but whether the killing is there to protect the larger population of human or not.
What I think is the border line is whether this is something that would threaten the safety of another human being, and whether pushing such act would prevent future threats to other human being.
Killing someone's pet is a crime, killing a pit bull that threaten your kids is not.
Killing a farm animal for meat in a less painful way (electric shock first) is not a crime, killing a human that threaten another human's life is also not a crime, killing a human to rob his/her belonging is.
Make sense? It is not able whether it is a human or pet or wild animal, but whether the killing is there to protect the larger population of human or not.
Careful...some construe that murdering an unborn human potentially threatens its safety...
Lumping humans in with animals as far as life value is a slippery slope on this board, religion will no doubt play enormous role in having this thread locked....
ddrumman2004 is 100% correct IMO.
Lumping humans in with animals as far as life value is a slippery slope on this board, religion will no doubt play enormous role in having this thread locked....
ddrumman2004 is 100% correct IMO.
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Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Careful...some construe that murdering an unborn human potentially threatens its safety...
Lumping humans in with animals as far as life value is a slippery slope on this board, religion will no doubt play enormous role in having this thread locked....
ddrumman2004 is 100% correct IMO.
True, that was only my personal opinion. But then again, arguing about whether eating meat is ethical can be considered a slippery slope for many religions around the world as well.
Careful...some construe that murdering an unborn human potentially threatens its safety...
Lumping humans in with animals as far as life value is a slippery slope on this board, religion will no doubt play enormous role in having this thread locked....
ddrumman2004 is 100% correct IMO.
True, that was only my personal opinion. But then again, arguing about whether eating meat is ethical can be considered a slippery slope for many religions around the world as well.
Originally Posted By: ddrumman2004
The way I see it....a long time ago, man hunted food to survive and they found that meat taste better than a tree leaf, especially when cooked.
That's it. Humans have K-9 teeth. We are supposed to eat meat.
Is a tiger evil or unethical for killing it's prey?
The tiger is using the means at it's disposal for survival...as are we. We just do it differently.
The way I see it....a long time ago, man hunted food to survive and they found that meat taste better than a tree leaf, especially when cooked.
That's it. Humans have K-9 teeth. We are supposed to eat meat.
Is a tiger evil or unethical for killing it's prey?
The tiger is using the means at it's disposal for survival...as are we. We just do it differently.
I eat meats that are socially acceptable for human consumption. I would eat other meats (except human, of course) if local laws/customs allowed it. I've always wanted to try horse..
I would eat ANY meat in a survival situation.
I would eat ANY meat in a survival situation.
Originally Posted By: Volvo_ST1
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think certain animals like fish, poultry, cattle and pigs are lower on the food chain. Most of those animals are prey. Animals like dogs and cats are more intelligent and are predators. So I see it as being the level on the food chain and dogs and cats and other intelligent animals or predators are a different matter.
If you eat animals based on their perceived low intelligence, then why do you list pigs? Pigs are on par with dogs in terms of intelligence. Pigs are also not exactly a bottom feeder in the food chain. Being omnivores with predatory instincts, they should not end up on your dinner table, according to you.
Well pigs are debatable, but if you ever seen a domesticated pig they are not very intelligent and are fed mostly a vegetarian diet. Pigs are somewhat predatory and omnivorous and a gray area, and some cultures excluded the consumption of pigs. But dogs and cats is not a gray area based on the criteria. If you are hunting would you kill and consume coyotes, wolves and wild cats, or would you instead consume their prey, deer, rabbits, squirrels etc? It seems for the most part pretty clear where the animals stand on the food chain and which ones are prey.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think certain animals like fish, poultry, cattle and pigs are lower on the food chain. Most of those animals are prey. Animals like dogs and cats are more intelligent and are predators. So I see it as being the level on the food chain and dogs and cats and other intelligent animals or predators are a different matter.
If you eat animals based on their perceived low intelligence, then why do you list pigs? Pigs are on par with dogs in terms of intelligence. Pigs are also not exactly a bottom feeder in the food chain. Being omnivores with predatory instincts, they should not end up on your dinner table, according to you.
Well pigs are debatable, but if you ever seen a domesticated pig they are not very intelligent and are fed mostly a vegetarian diet. Pigs are somewhat predatory and omnivorous and a gray area, and some cultures excluded the consumption of pigs. But dogs and cats is not a gray area based on the criteria. If you are hunting would you kill and consume coyotes, wolves and wild cats, or would you instead consume their prey, deer, rabbits, squirrels etc? It seems for the most part pretty clear where the animals stand on the food chain and which ones are prey.
It's only pretty clear to some, of a particular cultural bent.
http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html
Some people cook live fish, and want them gasping on their plate, an act which I find abhorrent.
http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html
Some people cook live fish, and want them gasping on their plate, an act which I find abhorrent.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
When I was in high school, my teacher told us about her 6 months in the Phillipines shortly after graduating as a teacher.
She was billeted at a family, and they ate sparingly of meat, with whatever they could put in the meal, mostly bird etc. Family tradition was to save some food for the family dog.
When her 6 months was up, they had a banquet in her honour, roast meat, various meat dishes etc. They encouraged her to eat up, but she was arguing to save some of her portion for the dog...until she realised that there was no dog...
When my dad was in the 101st Airborne in Vietnam, they had been patrolling the Central Highlands for a long time. Some of the local Montagnards invited them to eat with them. Fresh hot meat was served. A wonderful change from weeks of LRP rations. The troops were reveling in how wonderful it was. My dad asked, "Is this pork?" pushed his nose up and made pig noises. "One of the tribesmen smiled and shook his head no. "Is it beef?" Made cow horns with his fingers and mooed. Again the tribesman shook his head no. Finally after a few minutes of charades the Montagnard grabbed my dad's hand and took him to one of the huts where the ladies were skinning and cleaning more meat....from rats.
He still would favor a fresh rat over LRP rations to this day.
As far as the original topic, it's good to have balance. It was mentioned that people that eat primarily meat are shorter lived and that may well be true, but I have yet to see a true vegan that was healthy and full of vitality. And they are so sensitive to everything they eat. "Ohhhh that must have had dairy in it...I think I'm going to be sick....I have a headache, that vegetable soup must have been made with beef or chicken broth...Ohhhhh....
My vegan friends state that their intolerance of certain foods indicates how bad those foods are for you. I disagree. I think that proves they've been taken out of their natural omnivorous state.
And then there is the chemicals. Sure the basis of whatever vegan food is being eaten is probably soy but it's bolstered and modified with all sorts of [stuff] you can't even pronounce. If meat isn't healthy then how can that chemical cocktail meat impersonator be any better?
When I was in high school, my teacher told us about her 6 months in the Phillipines shortly after graduating as a teacher.
She was billeted at a family, and they ate sparingly of meat, with whatever they could put in the meal, mostly bird etc. Family tradition was to save some food for the family dog.
When her 6 months was up, they had a banquet in her honour, roast meat, various meat dishes etc. They encouraged her to eat up, but she was arguing to save some of her portion for the dog...until she realised that there was no dog...
When my dad was in the 101st Airborne in Vietnam, they had been patrolling the Central Highlands for a long time. Some of the local Montagnards invited them to eat with them. Fresh hot meat was served. A wonderful change from weeks of LRP rations. The troops were reveling in how wonderful it was. My dad asked, "Is this pork?" pushed his nose up and made pig noises. "One of the tribesmen smiled and shook his head no. "Is it beef?" Made cow horns with his fingers and mooed. Again the tribesman shook his head no. Finally after a few minutes of charades the Montagnard grabbed my dad's hand and took him to one of the huts where the ladies were skinning and cleaning more meat....from rats.
He still would favor a fresh rat over LRP rations to this day.
As far as the original topic, it's good to have balance. It was mentioned that people that eat primarily meat are shorter lived and that may well be true, but I have yet to see a true vegan that was healthy and full of vitality. And they are so sensitive to everything they eat. "Ohhhh that must have had dairy in it...I think I'm going to be sick....I have a headache, that vegetable soup must have been made with beef or chicken broth...Ohhhhh....
My vegan friends state that their intolerance of certain foods indicates how bad those foods are for you. I disagree. I think that proves they've been taken out of their natural omnivorous state.
And then there is the chemicals. Sure the basis of whatever vegan food is being eaten is probably soy but it's bolstered and modified with all sorts of [stuff] you can't even pronounce. If meat isn't healthy then how can that chemical cocktail meat impersonator be any better?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
some cultures excluded the consumption of pigs. But dogs and cats is not a gray area based on the criteria
They don't consume it due to its filthiness, not due to their holiness or out of respect.
Those cultures that do not eat pigs also do not eat dogs, cats, or rats.
some cultures excluded the consumption of pigs. But dogs and cats is not a gray area based on the criteria
They don't consume it due to its filthiness, not due to their holiness or out of respect.
Those cultures that do not eat pigs also do not eat dogs, cats, or rats.
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If you want to read some confusing and silly stuff, read the Kosher guidelines. Here's an excerpt, for informational purposes only, not trying to bring religion into it:
Quote:
Every flying insect that uses four legs for walking shall be avoided by you. The only flying insects with four walking legs that you may eat are those which have knees extending above their feet, [using these longer legs] to hop on the ground. Among these you may only eat members of the red locust family, the yellow locust family, the spotted gray locust family and the white locust family. All other flying insects with four feet [for walking] must be avoided by you.
Quote:
Every flying insect that uses four legs for walking shall be avoided by you. The only flying insects with four walking legs that you may eat are those which have knees extending above their feet, [using these longer legs] to hop on the ground. Among these you may only eat members of the red locust family, the yellow locust family, the spotted gray locust family and the white locust family. All other flying insects with four feet [for walking] must be avoided by you.
Quote:
Keep in mind, in India, the cow is revered at a sacred animal, and they would absolutely be disgusted at how we eat them, the same way we (North Americans) view dog eating.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. Real and figurative.
Ed
Keep in mind, in India, the cow is revered at a sacred animal, and they would absolutely be disgusted at how we eat them, the same way we (North Americans) view dog eating.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. Real and figurative.
Ed
The food chain gives us the right.
It is suitable for ANY animal that is farmed, whether you believe it is better off as a pet, or running free.
What you agree or disagree with is just your opinion.
"To Serve Man".... we're fattening you up for the aliens. They're coming soon to gather their human livestock.
Don't forget to mark the calendar for the 'possum festival this summer.
The Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo's had their game dinner this weekend. Pheasant quail soup, pulled boar, baked rabbit, deer(chili, bruschetta), buffalo(meatloaf), bison(burgers), chili fried squirrel, bunny stew, and sausage/meatballs not made from anything bought at a supermarket...
Please halt the helpless slaughter of grass, vegetables, roots, fruits, & seeds/nuts.... Join PETP now...People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants
It is suitable for ANY animal that is farmed, whether you believe it is better off as a pet, or running free.
What you agree or disagree with is just your opinion.
"To Serve Man".... we're fattening you up for the aliens. They're coming soon to gather their human livestock.
Don't forget to mark the calendar for the 'possum festival this summer.
The Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo's had their game dinner this weekend. Pheasant quail soup, pulled boar, baked rabbit, deer(chili, bruschetta), buffalo(meatloaf), bison(burgers), chili fried squirrel, bunny stew, and sausage/meatballs not made from anything bought at a supermarket...
Please halt the helpless slaughter of grass, vegetables, roots, fruits, & seeds/nuts.... Join PETP now...People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants
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