You clearly already have that with the SUPER Beetle!
End Of The Line For Dodge Challenger and Charger
- Thread starter Wrenchturner44
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Road noise?
LOL at the hyperbole.
Which performance car segment? The one requiring multiple laps? I think not.
Harley Davidson made an entire business out of this philosophy.
Such as?
Can’t be price. The Tesla started at $69,420 vs. $73,225 for a Charger SRT Widebody. It only went up because demand is through roof (the waiting list is a 11 months currently).
Can’t be range. 405 miles vs 278 miles. The Tesla is literally EIGHT times as energy efficient as a Charger SRT Widebody.
Can’t be acceleration. Dodge tried a thousand times in perfect conditions and only managed a 10.96 1/4 mile. 10.8 is pretty easy in a Model S LR.
And then comes the main reason manufacturers are switching to EVs - MONEY. It’s clear as day now that EVs can be built faster than ICE cars, with around 30% fewer employees. That means they’ll be more profitable for the manufacturers
Sources:
https://insideevs.com/news/449073/us-tesla-model-s-now-starts-69420/
Dodge.com
Fueleconomy.gov
https://www.moparmagazine.com/2019/12/2020-dodge-charger-srt-hellcat-widebody/
https://www.autoblog.com/amp/2021/02/13/uaw-uncertain-future-evs/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rofit-potential-after-years-of-discouragement
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They can put speakers on an EV and broadcast big engine sounds. They already do farts.
Weird. I asked how many laps and you responded with straight line speed. EV performance is a party trick. Go watch a Formula E race.
That Tesla is energy efficient, but not energy dense.
Beyond that, the “performance car” segment is so much more than straight line speed. Might EV’s get there? Sure, it’s likely we’ll be mandated that direction. Have EV’s eclipsed ICE because of a short term straight line advantage? No, and likely won’t until ICE is made illegal. Stop light racers have adopted Tesla’s, cool, I’ll pay attention when an EV finishes Le Mans or Monaco.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That range will not be accurate (no Tesla comes even remotely close to their EPA figures). That's not to say the SRT mileage isn't abysmal, but the Charger will get better mileage on the highway, while the Tesla won't, it goes the other way.
Highway range for the Charger is 388 miles, while C&D got 320 miles from the Model S Long Range Plus:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/
According to Car and Driver, the Model S Performance will do a 10.6 (with Cheetah mode):
And was $108,000 as tested. Article on that car here:
https://www.caranddriver.com/review...el-s-performance-cheetah-mode-by-the-numbers/
The non-Performance version runs ~11.9 IIRC, unless they've significantly increased its performance with the "Plus" version?
This is a 2020 Model S Long Range, it ran an 11.9 @ 113Mph:
The Red Eye ran 11.5 at the same Mph as the Model S Performance, obviously traction limited being 2WD:
Absolutely. Less complex, fewer parts. Which is one of the reasons Tesla's half-assed approach to the luxury level of their interiors bugs me.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Just as an addendum to the above, it looks like they dropped the "Performance" and "Long Range Plus" versions of the S and the 0-60 time is now somewhere in between those versions (2.5 seconds for Performance, 3.7 seconds for Long Range Plus) at 3.1. Range has also gone down.
The price has also gone up to $99,940 (the above includes a discount):
The price has also gone up to $99,940 (the above includes a discount):
But you’re looking at the wrong cars, as you saw. The Model S Performance and Long Range Plus you reference are old, obsolete models.
I’m talking about the 2021 Long Range that came out with the Plaid. It’s literally a Plaid, but with a single motor rear drive unit instead of the dual. Even the battery pack is the same as a Plaid. You could buy it for $69,420 and will do 10.8.
And they will do their rated range. Edmunds nailed the Plaid range estimate almost exactly.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
See my follow-up post, that car doesn't exist anymore, and I saw that video, that looks like a Model S Performance, and runs the same 1/4 mile. I've yet to see a video of the current Model S, it looks like things might have gotten a bit weird in 2021 with model transitions, but the Performance, that ran a mid 10 had a 0-60 of 2.4 seconds, the current offering has a 0-60 of 3.1 seconds, unless there's massive sandbagging between 0 and 60 in the current model, that $100,000 USD car isn't running a mid 10.
and that is a real Charger... a two door not a four door...
Definitely. Tesla is a bit of a mess you could say.
.What I’m getting at ultimately is that car was the biggest bargain Tesla ever sold, if you ordered one right away and got the intro pricing. A slightly slower Plaid with more range for under $70,000. If Tesla determined they could do it at a profit, Dodge probably thinks they can too with an EV Charger.
And to confuse things more. Regarding the screen shot you posted with 375 mile range, if you scroll
way down on that page and select the 19” wheels the range estimate goes back over 400 miles. Dumb on Tesla’s part not to default that page to the highest range/cheapest price configuration.
This thread was never about “laps”. You’re the only one talking laps times.
We’re talking Challenger and Charger. Possibly the two most drag strip/straight line oriented nameplates in history.
But I’ll give you that I really meant “Muscle Car” or Sports Sedan segment when I said Performance car.
overkill addressed your claims far better than I can (on my phone with two thumbs).
My point about laps is specifically to illustrate power density vs. efficiency.
From a true performance perspective - a hybrid car actually offers a lot of potential. The upcoming HyperCars, and LMDh prototypes are going to open a lot of eyes.
Even Indycar is going hybrid. Pure EV performance needs to be balanced by ICE energy density to move beyond a stoplight killer.
Edit: until battery tech takes a transformational leap.
Yep. I have no problem with EV vehicles, and think EV motorsport is exciting in its own way and if more people watch it, great.
What i dont like seeing is the constant wave of EV enthusiasts equate performance to 0-60 time or 1/4 mile time and not much else. I hear tech geeks who weren't previously into cars talk about nothing else, which leads me to believe they dont really understand why car people like cars in the first place or the breadth/history of motorsport. This isnt even mentioning that for many people the enjoyment of motorsport is manually controlling firebreathing hunks of spinning metal connected to a box of gears and shafts to its limit is a very engaging and flat out fun experience, and pressing a single pedal to rapidly buzz you around isnt as appealing to many of us
Motorsport where EV excels:
- Drag Racing/stoplight racing
- Some autocross
- Some sprint distance single stage rallys/hillclimbs
- Time attack maybe, I haven't really seen any in this segment despite theoretically being strong
Where they dont:
-Any type of road racing/GT racing
-Any type of endurance racing
-Multi stage rallys(almost all of them)
-All day hot lapping events
-to shorten this list, any motorsport that requires aggressive driving for over 10 minutes.
Personally for me, endurance racing is the pinnacle of overall vehicle performance, particularly in the GT3 and adjacent categories that are most similar to street cars. Car has to be fast as hell in a straight line and through corners, reliable, somewhat efficient, as do the drivers and team, over a grueling amount of time. Seeing as the new Electric GT series format will be two 30 minute heats, I dont think they are quite there yet.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Oh, absolutely. There are going to be "SRT" EV's in the very near future I suspect, and with AWD, will be able to put that power to the ground.Definitely. Tesla is a bit of a mess you could say.
What I’m getting at ultimately is that car was the biggest bargain Tesla ever sold, if you ordered one right away and got the intro pricing. A slightly slower Plaid with more range for under $70,000. If Tesla determined they could do it at a profit, Dodge probably thinks they can too with an EV Charger.
And to confuse things more. Regarding the screen shot you posted with 375 mile range, if you scroll
way down on that page and select the 19” wheels the range estimate goes back over 400 miles. Dumb on Tesla’s part not to default that page to the highest range/cheapest price configuration.
manicrodder
$50 site donor 2022
This thing is selling for 1700.00 dollars and is advertised as untouched. My Dad bought me a 53 Chevy. They were hard to peddle and they bobbed side to side.
manicrodder
$50 site donor 2022
If only it looked like a Mustang.
manicrodder
$50 site donor 2022
And they are typically charged by fossil fuel plants. Between that and mining there is a big environmental impact.
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