ELF Doesn't believe in "5w-20"

[TooSlick]

Buster,

What I'm simply saying is that you can't substitute 5w-20 for 5w-30 across the board in all engines. The results in my truck were very conclusive and I ran this test two times in a row. I actually expected to see the 5w-20 do just fine and I was very surprised. Well maybe shocked would be a better word.

For the Honda engines, the 0w-20/5w-20 grades both perform well, at least for newer engines with tight bearing clearances. It remains to be seen if this holds true for engines with > 150,000 miles on them. I think the book is still out on that.

The other reason why I don't like the 20wts is that the margin of safety is very low. For example, if you had significant fuel dilution due to a leaky injector, I believe you'd see very high bearing wear as a result. Using the slightly heavier 30wt oil simply gives you more of a cushion. I don't think using an ACEA A3 rated oil is absolutely necessary in a Honda engine, since they are designed to work with GF-4 rated 20wt and 30wt oils.

 

[Ugly3]

Keep in mind that M1 SS 5w30 is almost a 20 weight oil, lots of engines have gone lots of miles on this oil.

 

[TooSlick]

Even assuming that Honda/Ford engines wear at exactly the same rates using xw-20 and xw-30 grades, the clearances throughout the engine will increase over time. At some point I think you'll find that oil pressure may be marginal with the very low vis, 0w-20 and/or 5w-20 grades and that it will be worthwhile to go to a thicker 30wt oil.

I'd recommend anyone using xw-20 oils do an oil analysis spot check at least every 50,000 miles and see if the wear pattern is indeed stable over time. I'd particularly look for increases in Pb/Sn/Cu and Fe/Cr levels that denote higher bearing wear and cylinder wear, respectively.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
G-ManII, I am preety sure the 5.7 Hemi comes with 5W20!

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Did I say it didn't? You made the statement that it was only their gas hog Hemi that came with 5w20 and I countered that their true gas hog Hemi, the 6.1 in the 300C SRT-8, comes with Mobil 1 0w40.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Anyone who puts stock in the UOAs posted here and thinks 20wt oils offer great protection for the applications where they are specified needs to do some work with darkdan’s excel spreadsheet. He’s referred to it on at least two occasions, one of which I’ve linked to HERE. (scroll down about half way on page 1).

He claims it’s a summary of UOA data from this site on Ford modulars (that recommend 5W20).

Notes about the data:

You can’t tell from the spreadsheet whether a given 5W20, 5W30 or 10W30 is dino, synthetic, or a blend.
The number of samples of the 0W20 (2), and 40 weights (1 each) are probably too small to draw accurate conclusions about them.

From what I can see, the data arguably shows:

0W20 fares the worst even though it’s a synthetic and the OCIs are relatively short.
5W20 is next to worst.
All the 30 weights fared better than the 20 weights.
Even the 40 weights fared better than the 20 weights.
The average OCI’s of the 0W30 and 5W30 were twice that of the 5W20, but they still fared better.

 

[Cicero]

quote:

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Originally posted by ruking77:

My guess is ELF looked at the expenses of the certification and annuity expense and probably concluded it was not worth the "bang for the buck".

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ELF...TotalFinaElf, France, correct? T.F.ELF is a very big player in Europe, Africa, and so on. Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that since their market primarily lies outside the USA they have no need to make a 5W20?

 

[bighead]

That sounds like a D@MN good oil

. I wanna know how and where to get it

Nevermind...I didn't see there was a page 2 and posted to soon...

[ April 19, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: bighead ]

 

[buster]

quote:

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I called Fuchs today bc I wanted to see if they were going to start selling oils here. I was directed to their Baltimore, MD division. I talked to a very informative guy who gave me some good info that goes along with things said here on BITOG.

Fuchs is on the cutting edge of lubricant technology according to him. I told him about BITOG and he was aware of it. He had good things to say about RL, Amsoil and M1. He said for daily driver cars, he recommended a OTC synthetic like a Mobil 1/Amsoil. Said both were good quality. He said ester based Synthetics like Silkolene, which is available here, and RL, are best choices for racing and real hard driving conditions. He was very honest and said for someone like myself, a PAO retail synthetic would serve me well.

He said I wouldn't really see the benefits of using a RL/FUCHS ester based synthetic. I have to agree.

I then mentioned the 0w-20/CAFE argument. He said 99.9% of most US cars/drivers don't demand a thicker oil or even an ester oil. 80mph driving on the highway in my car doesn't call for it essentially. It can be used, but not necessary.

So I guess if your really pushing your car hard, and driving at really high speeds is when I'd look to an A3 Amsoil/RL or Fuchs type oil, otherwise it's over kill. BTW, all the analysis on here suggests this is true. He went on to mention that technology is much better then it used to and it's not as simple as it seems.

Fuchs lays low according to him in the US for competitive reasons. The guy was very nice, and extremely honest. He flat out said, for me, I'd be better served using a M1/Amsoil. If I were into hard core racing, then move to an ester based sythetic. He basically saying, I don't need to go through the hassle of importing Fuchs 0w-20 for my application and that the PAO M1/Amsoils etc. are perfectly fine.

Somtimes we ignore the obvious. If the UOA's look good, why switch? If your 3.1 HT/HS gives you great wear, and didn't shear in your application, why move? Makes ZERO sense. Tooslick said it earlier and that is as the engine ages, then you'll start wanting to use a thicker oil. I'm finally getting exhausted of this subject.

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Some cars you need a thicker oil, some you do not. Don't get all excited when you see thicker oils doing better in some engines, and vice versa. As Terry always says, let the UOA's determine that. A well built thin 20wt oil will out perform a lousgy 30wt many times. You have to match the engine/viscosity with the conditions.

 

[moribundman]

Paranoil wrote:

quote:

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Just to add to this debate, as far as I'm aware no oil company sells 0W-20 or 5W-20 in Europe for road-car applications.

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G-Man II replied:

quote:

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Wrong. Castrol and Fuchs both sell 0w20 in Europe. Fuchs Titan GT1 0w20 is one of the most advanced motor oils currently marketed by anyone. It uses a unique blend of esters for the base oil, has no VI improvers, and is totally biodegradable.

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I'm still waiting for G-Man II to give us examples of Euro carmakers or foreign carmakers (or at least one of them) even allowing 0W-20 and 5W-20 oil in street-driven cars in Europe. I have been looking, but haven't found anything.

[ April 19, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:
I'm still waiting for G-Man II to give us examples of Euro carmakers or foreign carmakers (or at least one of them) specifying oil specifying 0W-20 and 5W-20 oil for street-driven cars in Europe. I have been looking, but haven't found anything.

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I never claimed any carmakers spec'd 0w20 in Europe. I said there were at least two oil companies (Fuchs and Castrol) who market 0w20 in Europe. Apparently, however, Castrol has discontinued the Formula SLX 0w20 so that just leaves Fuchs with their Titan GT1 0w20.

 

[sprintman]

And what an oil it is. Released in 1999 the it's still at the cutting edge. See this article
http://www.cupcar.com.au/content/?id=84.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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I never claimed any carmakers spec'd 0w20 in Europe. I said there were at least two oil companies (Fuchs and Castrol) who market 0w20 in Europe. Apparently, however, Castrol has discontinued the Formula SLX 0w20 so that just leaves Fuchs with their Titan GT1 0w20.

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The fact that someome can markets and can sell a product is pretty much meaningless and has no relevance in regard to what manufacturers specify and what consumers buy. Top manufacturters like Elf and Fuchs will always be at the forefront of product development.

 

[buster]

quote:

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Top manufacturters like Elf and Fuchs will always be at the forefront of product development.

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They seem to be the best of the best. Fuchs in particular.

 

[MGBV8]

Zinc free!

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

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I never claimed any carmakers spec'd 0w20 in Europe. I said there were at least two oil companies (Fuchs and Castrol) who market 0w20 in Europe. Apparently, however, Castrol has discontinued the Formula SLX 0w20 so that just leaves Fuchs with their Titan GT1 0w20.

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The fact that someome can markets and can sell a product is pretty much meaningless and has no relevance in regard to what manufacturers specify and what consumers buy. Top manufacturters like Elf and Fuchs will always be at the forefront of product development.

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This is what Paranoil said in his post: "Just to add to this debate, as far as I'm aware no oil company sells 0W-20 or 5W-20 in Europe for road-car applications." That's what I was responding to. I couldn't care less if car companies in Europe spec 0w20 because that wasn't the factual error I was addressing.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Paranoil:
I have searched virtually every oil company's euro websites and can find no mention of them marketing xW-20 oils for Street car applications in Europe, even in cold climate countries such as Sweden. Fuchs produce a 0W-20 for Street cars, but that doesn't mean it's marketed in Europe.

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You need to search harder.

Fuchs Titan GT1 0w20

I posted all the way back in February of 2003 with a link to the Formula SLX 0w20 page at the Castrol Swistzerland web site. That link is dead now and I can't find a reference to SLX 0w20 at that site anymore. There is still a reference to it on the Castrol Poland web site.