E85 is getting killed by low gas prices

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And didn't these industries exist prior to construction of fuel ethanol plants?

Perhaps they were using plain corn back then?

Puerto Rico is another example of the US with climate suited to sugar cane production, Bacardi has been there for decades, yet no fuels ethanol plants.

Cuba is another example from a completely different government structire, yet I've never heard of a fuels ethanol plant in Cuba.
 
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Originally Posted by Nyogtha
And didn't these industries exist prior to construction of fuel ethanol plants?

Perhaps they were using plain corn back then?


Many markets grew out of ethanol production. Ethanol plants produce many polymers and other stuff for other industries. And sure, beverage companies got CO2 from other sources prior to ethanol plants, but now it is far more cost effective for them. That is one of the reasons soda pop is so cheap.

Sure, many poultry production facilities were, and still do, use ground corn meal. But now it is supplemented with high protein feed supplement from ethanol production. A lot more result for a lower cost and volume input. You know.... what successful business is all about.

What the various groups did prior to ethanol production is not really relevant at this point. A broad range of markets do benefit from ethanol production. That is why it is not going away any time soon.
 
I find it as relevant as the fact the US has resumed exporting crude oil. Why don't you?

Only legislation keeps the fuel ethanol industry in business in the US, especially using corn.
 
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Well, how about explaining what the prices of those corn based fuel ethanol byproducts would be without a legislatively guaranteed market for the primary product? You know - real world "what's good for business" in a truly open competitive marketplace?

I find your use of terms like "essential" and "rely" certainly don't match the dictionary definitions.
 
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Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Well, how about explaining what the prices of those corn based fuel ethanol byproducts would be without a legislatively guaranteed market for the primary product? You know - real world "what's good for business" in a truly open competitive marketplace?

I find your use of terms like "essential" and "rely" certainly don't match the dictionary definitions.


I find your assertions just trying to be contentious than actually looking at reality. You obviously have a gripe against ethanol, so to relieve your blood pressure, I suggest you don't buy it, nor buy or use any product that benefits from ethanol production in some way. Then we all can be happy.

The "legislatively guarantee" is a state by state driven thing. Many of the states allow non ethanol fuels to be sold right at the pump along with ethanol laced fuels, so the consumer can choose what they want. The Federal "mandate" is for a total amount of ethanol fuel in the system. it doesn't mandate that anyone actually buy the stuff nor does it say that non ethanol fuels not be sold. And that total RFS ethanol fuel mandate can be sold in any blend the consumer wants to buy it. I can buy E0, E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, or E85 in my area as I see fit. I buy E0 for my various OPE and motorcycle and currently E85 for my gas engine vehicles. There is not enough ethanol produced to lace every gallon of gasoline even if they wanted to. That is state by state decided. If one has a problem with the non availability of ethanol free fuel, then one needs to take their state legislature to task. It is your elected legislators, so it is your problem. Folks in the other 49 states are not responsible for what your legislators decide for you.

Even the so-called E15 "mandate" that has a lot of folk's panties in a wad, is nothing more than an allowance that E15 can be sold year round, nationwide. it doesn't mandate it be sold in lieu of E10 or even E0. Some folks really shouldn't use drugs. They seem to be extremely paranoid on their own.

I never tried to explain prices for anything, and there is no need to. I am not a trader on the commodity exchange. All prices for ethanol are exchange driven.. What the producers get for ethanol is what the commodity market says it is worth. Which as of 12/24 20:00 is $1.24 a gallon. RYOB Gasoline as of 12/24 2000 is $1.26 a gallon. Since ethanol production subsidies were eliminated at the end of 2011, it is really that simple. The government doesn't run those commodity exchanges.

And prices for byproducts of ethanol production are also a supply and demand thing. And their is competition between ethanol plants. From what I have talked with poultry and egg producers, Biolys (high protein feed supplement from ethanol plants) is from whatever plant bids the lowest price to provide the product to them. You know, the free enterprise system.
 
Well, take a look at this article which includes comments from a national poultry association spokesperson.

https://blog.afpm.org/perspectives-...r-ethanol-mandates-for-2019/#.XBqMH1xKg2

I have a gripe against presentation of information not aligning with facts. You choose to perceive that solely with regard to ethanol however any review of my post history here will prove otherwise.

Your statements about "not relevant" and "reality" are additional prime examples. Your claims that the fuel ethanol industry could stand on its own without the RFS is another. I live in the 7th largest city in the USA and it is not an air quality non-attainment area, so the RFS is the sole driver for E10 here. You apparently are either ignorant of or have deliberately turned a blind eye to RINS costs and trading.

Which is it?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Identification_Number


LINK 2

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bi...suit-we-re-not-going-to-give-up.amp.html
 
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Now, as for areas that legislatively require gasoline blended with oxygenate, decades ago the market proved MTBE and similar fuel ethers to have economic advantage on top of such ethers also being far less hygriscopic than ethanol. Fuels blended with such ethers could be shipped as finished blends to terminals whether by pipeline, marine transport, or rail. MTBE was legislatively banned in the US with a root cause problem of leaking underground storage tanks and the etger component being a very effective biocide versus bacteria that other wise temediated such gasoline that did not have such an oxygenate component. Ethanol is also a very effective biocide but the effects of similar concentrations of ethanol in water supplies was deemed innocuous.

https://archive.epa.gov/mtbe/web/html/

Such ethers are widely used outside the US including Western Europe not only to filfill oxygenate requirements for the technical and evonomic reasons already described, but also as a competitively economic source of a high octane gasoline blending component in areas that don't require oxygenate. And at the time they were ysed, the majority of such ethers used in the US were manufactured in the US. Lyondell on the Houston Ship Channel still operates their world scale MTBE unit, but now solely for export. Most other refiners converted the MTBE and similar ether units to other purposes to not have completely stranded capital investment. With the surfeit of natural gas and NGL's we now have in the US, manufacture of such fuel ethers would be even more economically attractive than it was in their prior heyday here. Ethanol can easily be converted to ETBE which has the same lack of phase seperation when blended into gasoline and much lower attraction for water as MTBE. No extra capital required for point of delivery splash blending storage, metering, etc. and no economic penalty for seperate rail transport to the point of final blending. for delivery

The US MTBE ban legislation is therefore an additional part of the legislation that props up ethanol plants in the US especially corn based. With today's standards on leak detection and containment, I see no technical reason why the US couldn't use MTBE and similar ethers to a similar level of effectiveness as Western Rurope, except for the ban legislation and an artificial penalty imposed by the RFS in the US.

Along those same lines, with rare boutique exceptions, gasolines blended with ethanol are given a waiver on the volatility increase the addition of ethanol introduces, another penalty to E0 and any other gasoline blending oxygenate used. Yes, E10 has higher VOC emissions than the same basis E0 whether blended with a different oxygenate or no oxygenate at all (i.e. conventional gasoline). This waiver is a part of legislation giving preferential treatment to ethanol.

Simple, easily verifiable facts. Just like how Hawaii never had a fuels ethanol blending plant and has repealed gasoline ethanol blending requirements.
 
Unneeded when the mixture is controlled by the computer. If there is unburned fuel, lean out the mixture until it's all burned.

No need to bring more O2, just use less fuel.

If one doesn't have a complete burn, that means the mixture is too rich.

The goal is to burn all the fuel. The fuel should be fuel, not oxygen. If I have to carry the mass of the fuel, I want it to be as energy dense as possible. Carrying around O2, which is in the air already makes no sense.

Just adjust the mixture so it all burns.

An even cleaner solution as I don't need to carry the mass of O2. I can carry more fuel and burn less fuel per unit distance traveled.

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by javacontour
How does Ethanol clean the emissions of a modern computer controlled gasoline engine?

It may have made sense in 1979 when we all had carbureted cars. But today, the ECM can manage the fuel such that there is the right blend of fuel and oxygen. Do we really need a fuel that brings oxygen with it, such as fuels with MTBE or Ethanol in the modern car?


ethanol is used to oxygenate the gasoline mixture, which in turn allows the fuel to burn more completely and therefore produce cleaner emissions,

Apparently if we want cleaner burning vehicles.
 
I love the consistency of spin into an alternate reality.

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker

I never tried to explain prices for anything, and there is no need to.



Yet on the same page in a prior post, there's


Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
And sure, beverage companies got CO2 from other sources prior to ethanol plants, but now it is far more cost effective for them. That is one of the reasons soda pop is so cheap.


"Never" in your reality is defined as the time interval elapsed between those two posts?
 
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Originally Posted by javacontour
Unneeded when the mixture is controlled by the computer. If there is unburned fuel, lean out the mixture until it's all burned.

No need to bring more O2, just use less fuel.

If one doesn't have a complete burn, that means the mixture is too rich.

The goal is to burn all the fuel. The fuel should be fuel, not oxygen. If I have to carry the mass of the fuel, I want it to be as energy dense as possible. Carrying around O2, which is in the air already makes no sense.

Just adjust the mixture so it all burns.

An even cleaner solution as I don't need to carry the mass of O2. I can carry more fuel and burn less fuel per unit distance traveled.

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by javacontour
How does Ethanol clean the emissions of a modern computer controlled gasoline engine?

It may have made sense in 1979 when we all had carbureted cars. But today, the ECM can manage the fuel such that there is the right blend of fuel and oxygen. Do we really need a fuel that brings oxygen with it, such as fuels with MTBE or Ethanol in the modern car?


ethanol is used to oxygenate the gasoline mixture, which in turn allows the fuel to burn more completely and therefore produce cleaner emissions,

Apparently if we want cleaner burning vehicles.


The initial gasoline oxygenate requirements for air quality non-atrainment areas were put in place in the 1980's when the majority of the US fleet was using carbureators. Large scale refiners with integrated petrochemical operations such as Exxon and Arco manufactured MTBE so cost effectively it was widely used as an economical alternative for octane enhancement outside areas where gasoline oxygenate blending was mandated as well. I well remember when Exxon took out a full page ad in The Wall Street Journal touting all Excon stations nationwide were supplying gasoline blended with MTBE to their customers, a PR coup at the time. As I recall it was 1990. They were able to leverage that as requirement for their exchange agreements on top of what was supplied by their own refineries. This enhanced the economic attraction for refiners to utilize aromatics recovery for the petrochemicals market as MTBE and similar ethers like TAME could be used in the octane pool to offset the aromatics removed.
 
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon
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Here's an article introduced to give E15 special privelige waivers during the tightest evaporative emissions (VOC) control season of the year because once again, ethanol simply can't compete on a level playing field as a motor vehicle gasoline blending agent.

Fuel ethanol, especially corn based, is the energy equivalent of a Potemkin village.

E15 Legislation For Waivers Link
 
a few years ago some of the Radio Control guys was taking E-85 put some castor oil in it and run the RC car on. at lest i heard about the. but didnt actually see that done.
 
Originally Posted by Marco620
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon
banana2.gif



Fueled yesterday, Murphy station in Newton Iowa. E85 for $1.04 a gallon. If I would have had one of Murphy's fuel cards, it would have been $.99 a gallon.

Not sure why the price is so low, and could care less why. My vehicle can use it, I like the low price, and no other fuel is going to deliver the 10 cent a mile fuel cost I am getting with E85 in my 3/4 ton pickup.
 
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Marco620
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon
banana2.gif



Fueled yesterday, Murphy station in Newton Iowa. E85 for $1.04 a gallon. If I would have had one of Murphy's fuel cards, it would have been $.99 a gallon.

Not sure why the price is so low, and could care less why. My vehicle can use it, I like the low price, and no other fuel is going to deliver the 10 cent a mile fuel cost I am getting with E85 in my 3/4 ton pickup.

This is how a free economy and freedom of choice is eroded.
 
Here, the only fuel company that used ethanol voluntarily was the one who actually owned ethanol plants.
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And, as I have pointed out other times, when that choice disappeared, the real incentives to the customers went to heck.
 
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