E85 is getting killed by low gas prices

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Ethanol is used to make fuel less polluting (a good thing). They use to use MTBE to oxygenate fuel but found that bad.
 
MTBE is very dangerous, it poisons groundwater wells at very low levels. Ethanol does not, and is useful to raise octane levels too. Biggest thing is using it in vehicles that can handle it, even 2-stroke OPE can handle it if the mixed fuel is used quickly & not allowed to sit around & absorb moisture from the air (which is why I only mix one gallon at a time & use it all, or dump it in a car to burn it). Pretty sure the mandates have expired?
 
How does Ethanol clean the emissions of a modern computer controlled gasoline engine?

It may have made sense in 1979 when we all had carbureted cars. But today, the ECM can manage the fuel such that there is the right blend of fuel and oxygen. Do we really need a fuel that brings oxygen with it, such as fuels with MTBE or Ethanol in the modern car?

Originally Posted by ZZman
Ethanol is used to make fuel less polluting (a good thing). They use to use MTBE to oxygenate fuel but found that bad.
 
Originally Posted by bullwinkle
MTBE is very dangerous, it poisons groundwater wells at very low levels. Ethanol does not, and is useful to raise octane levels too. Biggest thing is using it in vehicles that can handle it, even 2-stroke OPE can handle it if the mixed fuel is used quickly & not allowed to sit around & absorb moisture from the air (which is why I only mix one gallon at a time & use it all, or dump it in a car to burn it). Pretty sure the mandates have expired?


No, the Renewable Fuels Mandate hasn't expired. The ethanol subsidy expired in 2012, but the RFS still mandates that X amount of ethanol be blended into gasoline each year. This is why the gummint has been pushing for E15. They hit the "blend wall" a few years ago, which means that more ethanol is being produced than can be blended into gasoline at only 10% in order to meet the annually increasing mandated quantity, which was originally supposed to max out at 36 billion gallons by 2022.
 
Originally Posted by doitmyself
I have been involved with wood biofuel research for 40 years. We were just ramping up research on wood torrefaction processes, then research dollars all but disappeared about 2 years ago. I'll be retired by the time the next research cycle escalates.
Some countries (Brazil, Europe) have working biofuel systems in place. In my opinion, cellulosic biofuel will never work in north America until fuel prices are consistently very high. ]


Yet, we seem to fund all kinds of other weird research,

like the mating habits of clams for $2,000,000

and a crucifix in a jar full of urine considered "art" that we also fund
 
Originally Posted by Iowegian
This is right by where I live.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.desmoinesregister.com/amp/1938321002

DuPont bought out another company and then shut this plant down. It was using corn stalks and rubish to produce ethanol. Now a German company is buying it and plans to produce natural gas. Considering how cheap natural gas is, I don't know what they are thinking? Suppose natural gas isn't that cheap by the time it get here through the pipelines?

Very interesting. But, I'll be the cynical curmudgeon and state "I'll believe it when I see it". Too many times I have seen these too-good-to-be-true media releases fizzle out over the course of 2 or 3 years. Often times it is corporations playing chess with investment money. I hope that I am proven wrong.
 
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Originally Posted by Iowegian
Originally Posted by Pelican
Ethanol in fuel ought to be abolished!!

You are not much for free markets are you?

There is no ethanol free market in most of North America. Canada used to have one. When it did, Husky/Mohawk would sell ethanol free 87 and ethanol enhanced 89 at the same price. As soon as the ethanol mandate came in, which is averaged across total volume of gasoline sold. What that resulted in was 89 being more expensive than 87. A regulation distorted the free market, and the free market incentive to use ethanol (a higher grade for the same price as regular) disappeared and the free market choice to use E0 87 disappeared with it. The only E0 available here is premium, and that's not a free market choice.

Husky/Mohawk was the only fuel supplier in Canada (and probably one of the only ones in North America) that actually chose to market ethanol enhanced fuels on their own, before any mandates. Considering that no one else did it, it tells me ethanol enhanced fuels cannot withstand the free market, and Husky/Mohawk was able to do so likely only because of their infrastructure (i.e. they own ethanol plants).
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by Iowegian
Originally Posted by Pelican
Ethanol in fuel ought to be abolished!!

You are not much for free markets are you?

There is no ethanol free market in most of North America. Canada used to have one. When it did, Husky/Mohawk would sell ethanol free 87 and ethanol enhanced 89 at the same price. As soon as the ethanol mandate came in, which is averaged across total volume of gasoline sold. What that resulted in was 89 being more expensive than 87. A regulation distorted the free market, and the free market incentive to use ethanol (a higher grade for the same price as regular) disappeared and the free market choice to use E0 87 disappeared with it. The only E0 available here is premium, and that's not a free market choice.

Husky/Mohawk was the only fuel supplier in Canada (and probably one of the only ones in North America) that actually chose to market ethanol enhanced fuels on their own, before any mandates. Considering that no one else did it, it tells me ethanol enhanced fuels cannot withstand the free market, and Husky/Mohawk was able to do so likely only because of their infrastructure (i.e. they own ethanol plants).


You are right, we don't have a free market. We haven't had free markets in decades. Government made it illegal (oil lobby) to use ethanol.
Now the government mandates certain % of regular and ethanol.
How about we let the consumer decide? Let the gas stations decide what they want to sell?
No ethanol, 10%, 20%, or even %50?
Neither side wants a free market because that brings uncertainty and loss of control.
"Banning" ethanol is again, the lack of free market.
 
Well, ethanol production is going to occur, RFS mandates or not. There are many byproducts of ethanol production that a essential to the markets. Even spark plug insulators are dependent on what comes out of the back end of ethanol plants. Along with a lot of polymers and other stuff. The poultry industry relies heavily on the high protein feed supplements that come out of ethanol production.

But to the point of low gas prices killing off E85. Not hardly in my area. I filled up my pickup with E85 a couple days ago for $1.10 a gallon. it just went down to $1.09 a gallon today. My 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0 gets an overall local average mpg of 10-11 on the stuff. Doesn't sound great, but at $1.10, that is 11 cents a mile fuel cost. E10 Gasoline is $1.90 in my area, E0 is running about 30 cents a gallon more. At the $1.90 fuel price, my 2500 would have to average almost 18 mpg to break even with the cost per mile by my using E85. I have never seen a 2500 6.0 average 18 mpg for all miles (city, highway, hauling, etc). On E10 or E0, mine averages about 14 mpg for all miles. So, given the low price, I fill up with E85 just as I have exclusively for almost 2 years now.
 
Too bad a certain state interested in bio fuel did not harvest some wood for you ... sure lots of wasted wood, beauty, homes, businesses, insurance money, firefighting resources (chemicals) and clean air ...

Folks need to remember the earth pays a price no matter if it is gasoline or corn juice ... I now drive past an area that used to have moderate feed corn production based on rain fall ... but now it is miles and miles of corn and it follows a river heading south into our estuaries where I fish ... Every 100m is a sign advertising what chemical company has that contract ... all irrigation overflow goes back into that river headed to the marsh, bays, and GoM ...
 
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Well, ethanol production is going to occur, RFS mandates or not.

Yes, ethanol production is going to occur, and it predates the motor vehicle by thousands of years. Ethanol for consumption needs no subsidies or encouragement. Ethanol for fuel doesn't seem to have the same market attraction.
 
Originally Posted by javacontour
How does Ethanol clean the emissions of a modern computer controlled gasoline engine?

It may have made sense in 1979 when we all had carbureted cars. But today, the ECM can manage the fuel such that there is the right blend of fuel and oxygen. Do we really need a fuel that brings oxygen with it, such as fuels with MTBE or Ethanol in the modern car?


ethanol is used to oxygenate the gasoline mixture, which in turn allows the fuel to burn more completely and therefore produce cleaner emissions,

Apparently if we want cleaner burning vehicles.
 
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Well, ethanol production is going to occur, RFS mandates or not.

Yes, ethanol production is going to occur, and it predates the motor vehicle by thousands of years. Ethanol for consumption needs no subsidies or encouragement. Ethanol for fuel doesn't seem to have the same market attraction.

+ ^ Infinity Garak!

My wife and I are scuba divers and we've visited many island destinations that grow sugar cane, produce rum, or both. None of these have had a facility for producing ethanol for fuel. It's the non-denatured ethanol that has existed long before any RFS, and will continue to have demand into the future. Any claims to fuel ethanol production in Hawaii has already been debunked here, along with the repeal of ethanol blended fuel requirements in Hawaii. St. Croix, also part of the USA, produces rum but no longer commercially grows sugar cane (feedstock is imported) but has no fuel ethanol production facilities. And we all know how much more efficiently ethanol is produced from sugar cane squeezins than corn squeezins!
 
Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by javacontour
How does Ethanol clean the emissions of a modern computer controlled gasoline engine?

It may have made sense in 1979 when we all had carbureted cars. But today, the ECM can manage the fuel such that there is the right blend of fuel and oxygen. Do we really need a fuel that brings oxygen with it, such as fuels with MTBE or Ethanol in the modern car?


ethanol is used to oxygenate the gasoline mixture, which in turn allows the fuel to burn more completely and therefore produce cleaner emissions,

Apparently if we want cleaner burning vehicles.

There are alternative oxygenates for gasoline blending widely used outside the USA including Western Europe.
 
The gov't mandate and fuel economy standards are based on national security concerns. If oil gets scare, the spikes in prices will be less severe.
 
Originally Posted by Silverado12
The gov't mandate and fuel economy standards are based on national security concerns. If oil gets scare, the spikes in prices will be less severe.

Are those National Security concerns still valid now that the US is exporting large volumes of crude oil?
 
Well, there is a major market for DDG (dried distiller grain) products that come out of ethanol plants. I remember a Vietnamese delegation coming to Iowa a few years ago to negotiate for large quantities of the feed supplements and other byproducts of ethanol production. Poultry and especially egg production facilities use large amounts of the high protein feed supplements that come out the back end of ethanol plant production. Most folks have little conception of how many markets depend on ethanol production, or the byproducts of ethanol production. Most see only the auto fuel side of the equation.

For those that ever get a chance in their travels to stop by one of the major bio refineries, it is very eye opening regarding how many markets benefit from bio fuel production. I regularly haul 275 gallon tote containers into the Blair Bio Refinery complex in Blair, NE and is the truly an amazing setup. There is quite literally nothing wasted at these facilities.

Literally, soy oil was a waste by product of soy meal production. Then it was found the soy oil could be used to make high quality biodiesel. It was a solution to utilize more of the product and eliminate waste. In Corn Ethanol production, corn oil is diverted to the biodiesel production folks to also make biodiesel from that. The carbon dioxide that is a byproduct of ethanol production, the beverage industry purchases a large amount of that for their use.

This is why there are no longer any direct subsidies to the ethanol producers. The market is mature enough to stand on its own.
 
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