E85 is getting killed by low gas prices

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2,744
Location
San Antonio, TX
Garak, does Canada have it's own version of RINs credits and trading as used in the USA (and deliberately selectively never mentioned by certain BITOG members)?
 
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28,123
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I don't think we do. Anything is possible, but there are no obvious credits like that of which I'm aware. Most provinces have an ethanol mandate which is averaged across all fuel that someone sells, so premium E0 is very common with E10 regular being the norm, which allows companies to meet the overall average. Aside from the mandate, there are few ethanol plants here, and I can't think of one that's been built in this province in the last 15 to 20 years, despite rumblings and sod turnings and proposals here and there. One they were pretty gung ho about adding to a cattle finishing facility, using silage, was the last one I heard about, somewhere around 2002, and it never got off the ground. Last I heard, they were looking for a government handout (go figure), which must have never materialised. It's also interesting to note that there is one public E85 station in the entirety of Canada. So, as usual, it seems to me that Molson, Labatt, Diageo, Corby, and William Grant & Sons, for instance, can all make ethanol at a profit, albeit for human consumption. Imperial Oil, Federated Cooperatives, Petro-Canada, and Shell can't seem to make a go of it for motor fuel. Husky Energy had made a go of it, but it looks to me that they've decided to throw in the towel. If it wasn't for the ethanol mandate here, there wouldn't be a drop of ethanol in most fuel in this country, except for the Husky/Mohawk brands and those supplied by them, and as it stands, right now, those would be at risk of losing that, too.
 
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3,561
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Central Iowa
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Marco620
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon banana
Fueled yesterday, Murphy station in Newton Iowa. E85 for $1.04 a gallon. If I would have had one of Murphy's fuel cards, it would have been $.99 a gallon. Not sure why the price is so low, and could care less why. My vehicle can use it, I like the low price, and no other fuel is going to deliver the 10 cent a mile fuel cost I am getting with E85 in my 3/4 ton pickup.
This is how a free economy and freedom of choice is eroded.
yeah, like the freedom in my area to readily obtain E0 (regular and premium), E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. That is why I really could give a rip how the pricing works out. I can switch anytime I want to any blend or ethanol free fuel as the price changes seasonally. Within 12 miles of me, there is a dozen outlets that have ethanol free fuel at the pump. Would seem that freedom of choice is alive and well where I live. If freedom of choice has eroded in your area, that is between your and your state gooberment. So you have to decide if you want limited choice where you live or move to where freedom of choice is still paramount.
 
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6,029
Location
Florida
Originally Posted by Garak
Why does the E85 require a subsidy, though? No one sells it here because it would take an absolute beating in sales numbers without subsidies or tax incentives.
You answered your own question. People want it sold so they can make money. It can't compete in a free market. Bring in the politicians and taxpayers to mandate and subsidize. Profit.
 
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6,029
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Florida
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Marco620
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon banana
Fueled yesterday, Murphy station in Newton Iowa. E85 for $1.04 a gallon. If I would have had one of Murphy's fuel cards, it would have been $.99 a gallon. Not sure why the price is so low, and could care less why. My vehicle can use it, I like the low price, and no other fuel is going to deliver the 10 cent a mile fuel cost I am getting with E85 in my 3/4 ton pickup.
This is how a free economy and freedom of choice is eroded.
yeah, like the freedom in my area to readily obtain E0 (regular and premium), E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. That is why I really could give a rip how the pricing works out. I can switch anytime I want to any blend or ethanol free fuel as the price changes seasonally. Within 12 miles of me, there is a dozen outlets that have ethanol free fuel at the pump. Would seem that freedom of choice is alive and well where I live. If freedom of choice has eroded in your area, that is between your and your state gooberment. So you have to decide if you want limited choice where you live or move to where freedom of choice is still paramount.
Using freedom of choice and ethanol is the same sentence is beyond dumb. It's the definition of garbage being shoved down everyone's throat.
 
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2,744
Location
San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by Marco620
Just filled up in outskirts of Olathe,KS at QT. Pure 87 e 0 was 2.04 gallon banana
Fueled yesterday, Murphy station in Newton Iowa. E85 for $1.04 a gallon. If I would have had one of Murphy's fuel cards, it would have been $.99 a gallon. Not sure why the price is so low, and could care less why. My vehicle can use it, I like the low price, and no other fuel is going to deliver the 10 cent a mile fuel cost I am getting with E85 in my 3/4 ton pickup.
This is how a free economy and freedom of choice is eroded.
yeah, like the freedom in my area to readily obtain E0 (regular and premium), E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. That is why I really could give a rip how the pricing works out. I can switch anytime I want to any blend or ethanol free fuel as the price changes seasonally. Within 12 miles of me, there is a dozen outlets that have ethanol free fuel at the pump. Would seem that freedom of choice is alive and well where I live. If freedom of choice has eroded in your area, that is between your and your state gooberment. So you have to decide if you want limited choice where you live or move to where freedom of choice is still paramount.
Freedom of choice to use ethers such as MTBE, ETBE & TAME was eroded nationally, as well as competitive pricing for E0 via RINs costs and trading. If you're in the USA, choices in fuel formulation have had the decision tree pruned to one limb legislatively. Your example of freedom of choice is similar to choices in political parties in totalitarian regimes where only one party is allowed by law. You choosing to ignore this reality is similar to your use of "never" earlier this thread, as documented. Doublespeak by definition.
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
Originally Posted by hatt
Using freedom of choice and ethanol is the same sentence is beyond dumb. It's the definition of garbage being shoved down everyone's throat.
It is only shoved down someone's throat if a state does not allow ethanol free fuel to also be sold. Many states do allow ethanol free fuel to be sold. Mine included. So it is a non sequitur that a particular fuel is "shoved down everyone's throat" when they have the choice of buying something else. It becomes a matter of those the feel that it is being shoved down their throat convincing their hired help at the state capitol to allow non ethanol free fuel be sold or moving to a state where they have a choice. Back during the Viet Nam days, we called that "voting with their feet". Some folk's irrational hatred of ethanol makes for good humor though.
 
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119
Location
Michigan
Ive been running e85 here in michigan for 8 years. i use it in all of my vehicles even a couple i converted to run flex fuel. I continue to buy it even if it is only a small price gap because i believe its a much better quality fuel. Burns Cleaner, cooler and around 105 octane. ive never had a fuel injector or fuel pump failure running E85 but i do run fuel additives which im sure makes a difference.
 
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2,744
Location
San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by hatt
Using freedom of choice and ethanol is the same sentence is beyond dumb. It's the definition of garbage being shoved down everyone's throat.
It is only shoved down someone's throat if a state does not allow ethanol free fuel to also be sold. Many states do allow ethanol free fuel to be sold. Mine included. So it is a non sequitur that a particular fuel is "shoved down everyone's throat" when they have the choice of buying something else. It becomes a matter of those the feel that it is being shoved down their throat convincing their hired help at the state capitol to allow non ethanol free fuel be sold or moving to a state where they have a choice. Back during the Viet Nam days, we called that "voting with their feet". Some folk's irrational hatred of ethanol makes for good humor though.
None of us "voted" for the RFS provisions, RINs and RINs trading, or the banning of MTBE. I've proven with links to back it up that "voting with your feet" requires leaving the USA WRT any oxygenate other than ethanol being at a disadvantage legislatively, as well as E0. The deck is legislatively stacked and has been for quite a while now. It's the equivalent of a one-party political system and has been that way by design. The way some people intentionally ignore this is not surprising however, just like non-dictionary use of terms like "never", "rely", and "essential".
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by hatt
Using freedom of choice and ethanol is the same sentence is beyond dumb. It's the definition of garbage being shoved down everyone's throat.
It is only shoved down someone's throat if a state does not allow ethanol free fuel to also be sold. Many states do allow ethanol free fuel to be sold. Mine included. So it is a non sequitur that a particular fuel is "shoved down everyone's throat" when they have the choice of buying something else. It becomes a matter of those the feel that it is being shoved down their throat convincing their hired help at the state capitol to allow non ethanol free fuel be sold or moving to a state where they have a choice. Back during the Viet Nam days, we called that "voting with their feet". Some folk's irrational hatred of ethanol makes for good humor though.
None of us "voted" for the RFS provisions, RINs and RINs trading, or the banning of MTBE. I've proven with links to back it up that "voting with your feet" requires leaving the USA WRT any oxygenate other than ethanol being at a disadvantage legislatively, as well as E0. The deck is legislatively stacked and has been for quite a while now. It's the equivalent of a one-party political system and has been that way by design. The way some people intentionally ignore this is not surprising however, just like non-dictionary use of terms like "never", "rely", and "essential".
Well in a way you did. Your hired help you sent to D.C. voted for you. That is what is called a representative republic. But, the RFS never stated that non ethanol fuel not be also made available. It simply is a mandate that 15 billion gallons of ethanol (2018 final requirements) be in the system, and no more is even allowed currently. That can come in any form the industry wants.... E10, E20, E30, E50, E85, etc. Obviously, if people who had flex fuel cars bought the higher blends, then that would take the pressure off at the lower end. So, since I have only purchased E85 for the last two years, I am doing all of the anti ethanol crowd a favor. They should be promoting folks with flex fuel vehicles to purchase higher blends also. That would leave less available for blending as E10.
 
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2,744
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San Antonio, TX
Still never addressed RINs costs & trading, banning of MTBE, nor special volatility exemptions for gasoline blended with ethanol loading the deck. I don't ever recall voting for any member of the EPA nor any cabinet member. I'm for an open market and freedom of choice and honest facts as I've stated all along, that you insist on choosing to emotionally cast as ethanol hatred.
 
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3,561
Location
Central Iowa
Originally Posted by Nyogtha
Still never addressed RINs costs & trading, banning of MTBE, nor special volatility exemptions for gasoline blended with ethanol loading the deck. I don't ever recall voting for any member of the EPA nor any cabinet member. I'm for an open market and freedom of choice and honest facts as I've stated all along, that you insist on choosing to emotionally cast as ethanol hatred.
I think you still miss the point. The EPA does not ban the sale of ethanol free gasoline..... YOUR STATE DOES IT! The EPA only sets that 15 billion gallons of ethanol be used in this country. They don't break it down to percentages of different blends such as 15% be used to make E85, 20% be used to make E30, etc. It is your hired help in your state that determines if the sale is non ethanol gasoline be made available along side ethanol blended gasoline, and it is the retailers who determine if they are gong to also set aside tanks for non ethanol blended fuels. From a retailer standpoint, it is market driven. If folks wand E85, the stations will respond and offer it. If enough folks want ethanol free fuels, the station will respond in kind, if your state capitol will allow them. Retailers are all about free market. They will sell just about any fuel as long as there is enough buyers to justify the additional cost to implement it. Many, many states have that free and open market that the customer can choose to buy ethanol blended fuels or not. Mine happens to be one of them. The folks at my state house determined that non ethanol fuels will be available to any and all the want to buy them, in all parts of the state. But it seems that instead of blaming the folks at your state capitol for messing things up for you, you wish to go outside the state and put the blame on EPA, farmers, the Chinese, whoever. Sorry, that dog just don't hunt. The blame rests squarely at the door of your own state capitol. You may not like it, but that is your problem, not anyone else in the other 49 states. And you still have the freedom to move to a state that doesn't play draconian fuel games with their citizens. You know.... the same reason people left the old country and moved to the new world in search of freedom from oppressive governments, religious freedom, etc. And why many chose to uproot their families and move west back in the day for better opportunity. Maybe you need to follow their example.
 
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2,744
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San Antonio, TX
YOU continually CHOOSE to deliberately miss the point that every break legislatively given to ethanol is at the national level, not done by individual states, as posted links show. INCLUDING RINs costs and trading, volatility exceptions for VOC emissions, etc. Do you EVER read the information by clicking on ANY of those links? Another point us NONE of this has ever been put up for popular vote - ever - on a nationwide basis. You try to distort that with your posts but the fact that mone of this has been by popular vote, instead all by stroke of a pen - remains unchanged. Your strategy to denounce those who show the honest facts to be "haters" is the strategy followed by single party totalitarian governments to gain and maintain power. Is there some little red book from a special intetest group you're either writing or reading for the tactics you attempts to suppress and distort the true facts of this matter? Now twice advocating posting the truth means in your frame of reference I dhoild leave this country. That's definitely NOT why my ancestors emigrated here before WWI, nor why my ancestors fought in the US forces in WWII, including my father. So your twisted view of my posting facts means I should move is yet one more extreme example of your use of single party totalitarian government tactics. Since you enjoy those tactics so much, why don't you take a hike to North Korea where your style is de rigeur instead of telling speakets of the truth to take a hike?
 
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2,744
Location
San Antonio, TX
E0 gasoline is NOT banned in Texas, but sells att a legislatively mandated disadvantage due to FEDERAL legislation and promulgated rules. TiredTroller is caught in his own doublespeak. Here's an additional USEPA link to complement all the other factual links I've already posted. https://www.epa.gov/fuels-registrat...ce-help/rin-trades-and-price-information Hete is spin from the RFA on how USEPA volatility control regulations are viewed as "arcane" because ethanol cannot compete on a level playing field as a gasoline blend stock, and discusses the USEPA waiver for increased volatility for E10 gasoline. The honest facts are the E10 1 PSIA RVP waiver was granted by the USEPA starting in 1988 and remains a nationwide exemption by the USEPA. https://ethanolrfa.org/2015/12/rfa-...age-investment-in-higher-ethanol-blends/ TiredTroller has clearly posted he thinks the "US" means Texas and that this has something to do with a ficticious E0 ban he percieves to exist in Texas, contrary to honest facts in Texas.
 
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28,123
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
And here, E0 regular is essentially banned, unless a station sells a hypothetical E10 premium at sufficient volumes to make up average sales. A station can meet ethanol targets by having E10 regular, and lesser ethanol content in midgrade, and E0 premium. As I mentioned in the thread before, no one here sells E85 except one station in Ontario. I don't see how driving 3,000 km to fill a tank of fuel would be useful. And, if Shell and Esso and Petro-Canda and the Coops thought E85 would sell, they'd sell it. I can buy CNG and LPG. Ethanol needs massive help to survive as a fuel. People either have to be forced to purchase it or the price has to be subsidized off the charts.
 
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San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted by Garak
Ethanol needs massive help to survive as a fuel. People either have to be forced to purchase it or the price has to be subsidized off the charts.
Not really. There's still more demand for higher octane fuels these days. Ethanol or some other oxygenate functions pretty well as a cheap octane booster. In fact cheaper than gasoline. I know that oil companies aren't too keen on E15 as a standard fuel for gasoline engines, but E10 is still a useful tool for the fuel sellers. And in many cases the sellers of the fuel aren't even related to the refiners - even those with the same name like Valero.
 
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28,123
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Ethanol's main advantage in those regards isn't hurt by it being very favoured by legislation and regulation. Note that up here, most premiums are ethanol free, with only one notable exception, being Husky/Mohawk ultra-premium, which is 93 or 94 octane E10. Their 91 premium is E0, interestingly. They were the first company up here to market ethanol enhanced fuels in the first place, prior to any mandates, and the only one that saw it as a good business model all on its own. Husky is (for now) and was a top down company, with everything from exploration to upgrading heavy oil to refining gasoline to producing their own ethanol down to the stations. When I say Ethanol needs massive help to survive as a fuel, I'm looking particularly at E85. It seems that no one in Canada thinks they can make money selling E85, period. There's one station in the entire country. The majors don't sell it. No independents sell it. Husky doesn't sell it, despite, as I mentioned, having a major hand in everything from exploration to refining to ethanol production to retail. If they don't want to sell it, they clearly don't believe in its feasibility, despite the fact that Husky has already catered to niche markets of one sort or another over the years.
 
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2,744
Location
San Antonio, TX
There are alternative oxygenates that don't have issues of phase seperation, also high octane, widely used outside the US including Western Europe. In their heydey in the US these proved to be economically superior to ethanol as a gasoline blending agent. Banning those proven alternatives in the US at the national level is one piece of nationwide legislation that's s crutch propping ip ethanol here.
 
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