E85 killed 2014 Mercedes C300?

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Hi everyone

I've got a cautionary tale. I have been running my 2014 Merc C300 almost exclusively on E85 for the last 35k miles (every now and then I have to fill up somewhere it's not sold, but at least 90% of fuel is E85). It has about 75k total miles.

Recently the car started misfiring like crazy and the dreaded "check engine" light came on. This was after getting very low on E85, and having to fill up with Premium at a station that did not sell it. The problem was noticeable as the E85 got low, then worse when filled with gas. The dealership took a while to diagnose the problem, but eventually figured out that all of the injectors were clogged with what they described as "gunk". At least two injectors were just burned out, and they ended up replacing all six. A $4,000 job.

This car was sold as being fully flex fuel and you keep your warranty if you run E85 (unlike Midgrade). However they told me they'd only seem this problem once before, also on a relatively high mileage E85 car. I doubt that many Merc owners do high mileages consistently on E85. The mechanic told me "informally" never to touch E85 again although the "official" advice is still that it's OK. Note that the problem took a lot of miles / tanks to appear.

My thought on this is that the quality and age of the E85 may factor into it - the car may run fine on nice fresh ethanol but if it's sitting in the gas station for months, then in my tank, getting occasionally mixed with gas, it may develop some jelly deposits. These then accumulate in the bottom of my tank until the car runs low on fuel, they then get sucked up by the fuel pump and clog the injectors.

Has anyone else had similar problems (or no problems after more miles)?
 
If it happens again maybe have the injectors removed and shipped out for professional cleaning and rebuild. One of the guys on here does this. I think it's around $100 for six of them. Plus the cost of shipping and a mechanic to remove and re-install. Should be a few hundred all in. Often I'll use the dealer for diagnosis for something like this and pay the diagnosis fee. Then have someone else do the repair.
 
Originally Posted by Danno
Originally Posted by SatinSilver
One of the guys on here does this.


That would be "Trav"


Yes, I know.
 
I don't run E85 regularly anymore. But when I did, I experienced zero trouble with injectors.

However, there are plenty of online stories about gummed up injectors with E85 use.
 
Don't fuel pumps always pick up fuel from the bottom of the tank regardless of how much fuel is in the tank. Your "jelly" theory seems more of a guess without any real evidence to it.
 
eEuroparts has genuine MB injectors for this vehicle at $83.49 ea. If we assume 15 hours to change all @ 105/hr. that would be $1525 for labor. Nick is correct, you got hosed. Also, I have a Suburban (5.3, 50,000 Miles) and a 2010 Impala (87,000 Miles), both flex fuel and both run almost 100% on E-85 since new. Never ever any injector issues. Ethanol is considered a fuel system "cleaner" by many. Something else is happening here. Many, many mechanics blame E-85 for issues that are not fuel related. My example: a mechanic insisted I had two bad injectors in my Suburban due to the dreaded engine misfire code. ( A code hated by most technicians BTW). It turned out to be a bad spark plug, the technician insisted it was a bad injector from running "that darn corn gas". Replaced 1 spark plug and it ran perfect again. My experience.
 
This engine uses a Bosch 0261500066 which was discontinued in 2016, it was a problematic injector even of regular E10 fuel, it was replaced with 0261500396 or 256070018780 which are not as bad. They can be cleaned, its mostly a carbon and burned/disintegrated filter issue. They cost a little more than the regular top feed injectors to do because of Teflon rings and long cleaning cycles.
Both are a little scarce and cost about $400 USA dealer retail or about $2400 a set plus labor. An Intermotor replacement which isn't bad cost over $250 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-Intermotor-Injector/dp/B00Q0DPBGE

The one from eEuro parts are over $300 ea.

https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/126764/Fuel-Injector-2780700687/
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
I don't run E85 regularly anymore. But when I did, I experienced zero trouble with injectors.

However, there are plenty of online stories about gummed up injectors with E85 use.

I wonder if that's why Ford recommends running regular gas every so often.
 
Pricing is correct for dealer, 4.3 hours for all injectors, and each injector lists for 440. With tax, a little for the diag Im sure they tacked on, its right in that range. Even remans are about 275 plus shipping and core. These look more like a direct injector, not a more typical plastic body with 2 o rings.
 
Originally Posted by Trav
This engine uses a Bosch 0261500066 which was discontinued in 2016, it was a problematic injector even of regular E10 fuel, it was replaced with 0261500396 or 256070018780 which are not as bad. They can be cleaned, its mostly a carbon and burned/disintegrated filter issue. They cost a little more than the regular top feed injectors to do because of Teflon rings and long cleaning cycles.
Both are a little scarce and cost about $400 USA dealer retail or about $2400 a set plus labor. An Intermotor replacement which isn't bad cost over $250 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-Intermotor-Injector/dp/B00Q0DPBGE

The one from eEuro parts are over $300 ea.

https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/126764/Fuel-Injector-2780700687/


So, problematic injectors?

Sounds like E85 isn't to blame here. How would E85 gum up an injector over E10, anyway? Am I missing something?
 
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Originally Posted by Trav
This engine uses a Bosch 0261500066 which was discontinued in 2016, it was a problematic injector even of regular E10 fuel, it was replaced with 0261500396 or 256070018780 which are not as bad. They can be cleaned, its mostly a carbon and burned/disintegrated filter issue. They cost a little more than the regular top feed injectors to do because of Teflon rings and long cleaning cycles.
Both are a little scarce and cost about $400 USA dealer retail or about $2400 a set plus labor. An Intermotor replacement which isn't bad cost over $250 on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-Intermotor-Injector/dp/B00Q0DPBGE

The one from eEuro parts are over $300 ea.

https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/126764/Fuel-Injector-2780700687/


So, problematic injectors?

Sounds like E85 isn't to blame here. How would E85 gum up an injector over E10, anyway? Am I missing something?


This a very long body DI injector with a short nozzle, they are prone to heat saturation from surrounding engine parts and the internals deteriorate over a period of time.
The shorter body long nozzle handle this environment better but they too have some issues. Yes it would happen regardless of fuel being used. The difference is pain to see.

Bosch.jpg


Bosch 2.jpg
 
Thanks everyone!

To answer you skeptics, yes this really happened, and while this is an oil forum it seems to have more knowledgeable discussion of alternative fuels than anywhere else I could find on the interwebs.

And yes it was a $4k fix. These are high pressure individual direct injectors, Trav is right, no cheap sources on internet.

"Jelly" is only speculative idea, but I don't understand how come other people don't have problems. It seems Trav knows this particular injector to be problematic. This is a bit of a concern. See below.

...but (breathes deeply) it appears the factory has covered it. Vehicle is (just) still under CPO warranty, hence use of dealer. Mercedes dealers are not known for their inexpensive parts and labor, but are the only place you can get Factory service. However with fuel issues I have heard of repairs not being covered.

My reason for "wanting a car that runs on corn" is that I work in the biofuels area and it is helpful to say that I run biofuels myself. It is a bit embarrassing that this appears not to work so well.

My "angle" is that I don't want to have to do this again. So:

I am going on the wagon - no more ethanol if I can avoid it. However where I live everything is E10.

I am planning to run only 91+ octane gas with occasional techron / gumout as suggested.

However, if I encounter further injector problems, I would be mildly pleased since this means it's the injector not the fuel. If the injectors do die again, is there something more reliable they could be replaced with? The 2016 model is a completely different animal, 4 cylinder turbo, but I think they still use this engine in the E class. If there is a newer model injector that can be swapped out, that would be very useful information.
 
Trav, reliability statistics (on TrueDelta for example) seem to indicate that other people don't all have the same injector problem on this model / year. This is one of the most reliable engines out there according to this, and few reports of these issues are on forums, etc..

My understanding is the injector has to work harder with E85 (has to put more fuel in the cylinder per power stroke). Also I have had gum issues with ethanol gas in other engines. However if it's a heat thing, E85 ought to burn cooler by my understanding.

Would you think it wise to switch to the lowest ethanol gas I can find?

If it's not the E85, is it possible there is something else I am doing that makes me more vulnerable?

Finally, would an additive such as Gumout or Techron help? My understanding was that these are designed to clean the backs of valves in vehicles with port injection, and don't do much in a direct injection engine.

Thanks
Matt
 
This all seems like slander. How can ethanol cause an injector to die? That's an electrical coil dielectric issue.

Any if injectors are gummed up, isn't it cheaper to run injector cleaner than take the engine apart?
 
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